Competitive Tetris Scene Rant

[Blink]

I completely agree with meow.  TOJ's garbage system honestly feels perfectly balanced, I don't know how they did it.  I wonder if they just got lucky by making it the way it is, or if it was tested heavily by top players.  Players who want all-spins and 180 spins need to understand it hasn't been tested enough yet to find a good balance in multiplayer gameplay.  We can't just throw it in there without proper testing just because it seems like a cool thing to add.

[meow]

Meow, maybe you're right. What's the combo table of TF compared to TOJ again?

TOJ: 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5
TF:....0 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5

Both are capped at 5. Basically, TF sends an extra line for each combo, but at 11 onwards, they are the same. To be honest, I am surprised that the combo tables are quite close. The incorrect implementation of garbage adds by attack makes the biggest difference to the feel of both games.

[briannn]

the I and T pieces send 4 lines because they are symmetrical. i like this because it keeps things simple. it is more confusing to set up spins for L and J or S and Z.

i am ambivalent about 180 spins because they give me the impression that they make fixing holes and bad stacks more memorization than experimentation and improvisation which are part of what made the game fun.

regarding combos, i'd like to bring up an idea from another thread of capping pieces at 4 (or more) lines above the field. if garbage forces your pieces above this cap then you lose the game. unfairly losing this way is very rare unless you are building very awkwardly (throwing I pieces all to one side) or using 4 wide.

anyway i'm very glad we're talking about nerfing combo starts. its not just that they are overpowered, they're simply not very fun to play against.

[chopin]

TOJ: 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5
TF: 0 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5

Both are capped at 5. Basically, TF sends an extra line for each combo, but at 11 onwards, they are the same. To be honest, I am surprised that the combo tables are quite close. The incorrect implementation of garbage adds by attack makes the biggest difference to the feel of both games.

TF's early combo reward is failed because it doesn't encourage B2B. Clearing a single after is worth the same. So is TOJ garbage perfect? Or should it be weakened further? We also have to take into consideration not only power of T-Spin v.s. Combo, but also Tetris v.s. Combo. Is Tetris strong enough to versus it decently? Is it supposed to be three-way balance like rock-paper-scissors or Starcraft - Zerg, Protoss, Terran?

[DrPete]

if henk's considering a new version of Tetris, it might be worth considering a move away from SRS.

i do love SRS and the pretty elegant setups that can be built with it, but it does allow for a lot of bizarre twists (overhangless SST+ZST for example) that most players will never figure out are possible unless they look up a guide, and the situation becomes even more pronounced once you add in nullpomino 180's (teleporting S/Zs etc.). even TSTs, a concept that most of us have become familiar with and would barely think to question, look like ridiculous hax to most people who see them for the first time.

and of course most of us have seen this video:

[Someone2knoe]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]This is great news, let's hope they do it right and aren't simply feeding us bones.

I still think TOJ has the best balance/rules but I am open to testing others (I play all spins, 180s all the time on nullpo).
- configurable, separate DAS and AR (like Nullpomino)
- configurable delays (down to zero)
- configurable soft drop (down to zero)
- configurable previews
- same (0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,5...) or altered garbage table at high end (0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,1,1,2,2 etc)
- tspins only (sorry all spins)
- t-spin minis send 1 line
- b2b adds 1 extra line for single/double/tetris and 2 for triple
- TOJ style garbage adds/block/counter, not the fail TF http://harddrop.com/wiki/T..._Online_(Japan)

- no 180 spins (these are bullshit coming from someone who can abuse nearly all of them)
- no all spins[/quote]

Though I love all spins and think it makes more sense than just t-spins, I mostly agree with meow. I don't think that the tetris community is ready for all spins and I don't know whether they will be. My reasoning is that most of the competitive players are used to only t-spins. And many are not willing to switch over, at least I think it would be a huge risk.

On the other hand if you do not allow all-spins then there isn't really much risk because people enjoy games with only t-spins. So my vote goes for t-spins but no all spins.

I personally always use 180 rotate and misdrop without it. If this game had no 180 rotate i would be very disappointed. Without it the game is slower and I would have to adjust myself to rotating twice which feels inefficient.

I think some of the 180 kicks should be not included. Examples that shouldn't be included are teleports or large jumps.

I think that this particular 180 t-spin should count, the grey blocks would be required for it to work:

[fumen]105@JeA3hbWpA3hbWphbA3WpA3gbXppbtej7eBt6c9fB[/fumen]

I don't agree with this 180 tspin, I don't think it should work either. Its too much of a jump:

[fumen]105@/dA3hbH3hbH3gbH3hbI3gbH3pbtej7eCt1c9fBAAA[/fumen]

I think the 180 rotate would be a great thing to add, take out the overpowered aspects that exist in nullpo. I like the bb 180 twists. Again I don't think these should be rewarded, but possible. I think we can definitely have 180 rotates they just need to be designed carefully.

I general i think people are okay with 180 rotates, except when there are all-spin rewards and ridiclous kicks are rewarded. But we won't have all spins and I think the t-spin double I mentioned (1st fumen) is pretty balanced as in not overpowered.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind if 180 rotate just simulated a rotate twice, 1 for each direction. It would be optional use. I would still be able to play normally with the exception of certain kicks.

[Wojtek]

this is even more ridiculous:

[Blink]

They do need to do something about those bizarre twists.  I think Wojtek offered a easy/good solution:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
[1:24:52 PM] Wojtek Kowaluk: there is simple solution
[1:24:57 PM] Wojtek Kowaluk: like in tgm3 ars
[1:25:04 PM] Wojtek Kowaluk: you can kick up only once per piece
[1:25:09 PM] Wojtek Kowaluk: simple and effective
[/quote]

[Someone2knoe]

Yeah but those are single rotates lol. We should also suggest no inf loops. Is anyone keeping a list of all these things? haha.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]They do need to do something about those bizarre twists. I think Wojtek offered a easy/good solution:[/quote]

Can you give a fumen example of the way it is now vs that way? So i can kind of see what that would do.

[chopin]

I think whatever the system is called, it has to be almost identical to that of current SRS since all the online multiplayer games are like that. People might not want to play a new game with spins they're not familiar with.

[Someone2knoe]

I think whatever the system is called, it has to be almost identical to that of current SRS since all the online multiplayer games are like that. People might not want to play a new game with spins they're not familiar with.

To an extent they won't play a game they are not familiar with. But we can change a lot of things and improve, which im sure they won't object to. As long as the 180 twists are logical people won't really be affected. It doesn't affect their personal way of stacking. The issue is if it will be overpowered, then thats when they will notice it. The 180 tspin double I showed isn't too powerful, and is probably less practical than the normal t-spin double, yet it is a 180 spin. I doubt it would be harmful.

[chopin]

Yeah, I guess I agree. 180 Spins could be for the sake of efficiency. Is it possible to consider 180 Spins added without letting them twist? How are 180 SRS kicks decided anyways? Is it just whatever the programmer feels?

[Blink]

imo, 180 spin button should be a convenience thing and nothing more.  It should just take the place of 2 regular spins in either direction while not ignoring any kicks for each rotate, rather than open up the door to a bunch of twists which were impossible before.

[Someone2knoe]

Okay lets agree on a 180 button being the same as two rotates. No new kicks/twists, yet very efficient.

[Wojtek]

Can you give a fumen example of the way it is now vs that way? So i can kind of see what that would do.

this is not about 180 twist, it's about those crazy piece travels.

how 180 work only depens on what wallkick table is used. Nobody is saying 180 need to follow nullpomino's wallkick rules.