Competitive Tetris Scene Rant

[Kitaru]

Here we are then:
http://kitaru.1101b.com/tc/rotation.html

Hey, who remembers HRS and ZRS?
...
I do!
http://kitaru.1101b.com/NullpoRules/7.3/

[Paul676]

Reply to Chopin-

Sorry I didn’t reply to you earlier, it’s been the Jewish Day of Atonement, and hence I have not been online.

To clear up my stance on t-spins: So I've just looked at the wiki and seen minis and ez spins are the same thing. So my view needs clarification

The only t-spins I object to are the ones which you could have hard dropped them into the same place. A “soft drop here” sign in your head is a pseudo-skill. An actual setup is a skill.

At least, I’m for spins where you can’t hard drop it into place otherwise, but against them if you can otherwise do so.

I am for tspins in said “game of the future”, as I have always said, even though I personally prefer playing without.

When I was playing toj, I did use ez spins regularly and had the soft drop now sign placed firmly in my head. But now I don’t, almost in protest! I can’t see how they add to the skill of the game. Your fumen is an illustration of them, and a very well put-together one. But it still doesn’t persuade me. Yes Blink, Hebo and others are very skilful at using them, but it doesn’t mean that if someone good is skilful at using something, it doesn’t mean that it should be part of the “game of the future,” as you seem to be suggesting in that argument. For example, you’re against all-spins for this game for the moment, even though I know you’re very skilful at them.

In your fumen, here are the ones I think are fine and do take “real” skill:

4, 39,- the fact that you’ve set it up with something on top, meaning that there are 3 points for the t to go into. This is technically an ez spin, or so I have found out, but since it's a cave wall one, it is of a different breed to the others.
47- that’s fine, you can’t hard drop it into that place- i.e. it’s a real spin because it requires soft drop rather than hard drop.

Here are the ones that I don’t believe take real skill. (only the spins at that very point- not the consequent setups, which could have been done using hard drop, and do take real skill to make)

12- soft drop now sign in the head at a specific and quite a common point. I just don't feel it's a real skill to pull off. It's more memory/modification than actual learning something new. For example, learning a setup or even finesse is a skill. This I don't believe is one.
21- great tsd setup, but the ez spin is just a sign in your head saying “soft drop now,” not an actual setup. Same with 32.
52- same as 22, but it’s just no skill, I’m sorry
61- same thing. You could have hard dropped it into place- for a player there is no skill involved except a simple and very common recognition sign in your head. And for a spectator, it just confuses, and makes it even harder to get your head around.
70- same thing.

Although I can see the order of the previous places might take skill in using hold (but so does keeping a clean stack and everything else in tetris!), it’s just in my view not a real skill, and so should be left out of this game. It’s not the end of the world either way, but I hope this reply has given you some sort of reasoning behind what I said.

[Ryan]

easy spins are stupid

[meow]

I love EZ spins. It's fine cause they are rewarded less.

[chopin]

Hmm, I don't understand what you mean that they aren't setups? Many of those are setups. 16 is Yoshihiro, and 57 is Purple Rain. Regardless, EZ/Mini T-Spins are part of the Back-to-Back skill. That itself is not intuitive at all and requires a lot of looking ahead and understanding. These spins may not make sense, but just like roofless ZSTs and Iso/Fin T-Spins, they have kicks, that's why they count as T-Spins.

A common misconception is that to do a Mini against [for example] a right wall is to soft drop, hold right, and rotate CCW. The holding right is unnecessary because when you place it next to the wall and press rotate, the piece pulls itself to the wall on it's own, meaning that it's kicked before it locks in. This is why, like many other spins, it's counted as one. People who use them don't even use them right really (i.e. T-Spin Mini with no line clear), and so to them as well as people who don't use them think that they're dumb.

Currently, I think EZ/Mini sends 1 line, regardless of B2B, right? For the most part it won't be dangerous at all unless used by a strong player. I understand how it could cause confusion, but I think more confusion would be caused if it didn't exist at all. Many Japanese players will be outraged ;p

[meow]

B2B minis send 2 lines total.

They are simple to perform, but then so are TSS and TSD once you're used to them. It's fitting that they are rewarded with 1 line less than a real TSS.

They require the same number of steps to execute as other spins (drop + spin). At times, you might even consider skipping the spin and simply hard dropping it because the extra time taken to perform it might be the difference between a win and loss.

Allowing them to send lines adds more variety to attacking and defending.

[Paul676]

I'm happy with the tsd in yoshihiro and the one in purple rain, and to set that up requires skill. What does not require skill is seeing ooh it's next to a wall, let me soft drop it. In my mind, although I am aware there is a kick, it's just not skilful to perform in my mind.

Also, as I'm aware, in tfa, iso/fin tspins don't send in tfa, although they technically count as tspins.

Another argument against ez tspins is that if we're looking for it to be consistent in allspins, no-one wants the game to just be a soft-drop fest, and many proponents of ez tspins don't like ez s and z spins for example. Furthermore, I see no reason why ez spins should keep back to back, since one could easily just hard drop it into place- except that they choose to soft drop and rotate. To my mind, it just is a pointess exercise by nature, but it happens to have a point because of some kick rule meaning that it's somehow counted as a spin.

The difference between ez tspins and tss and tsds is that performing tss and tsd, as you know, requiress some vestige of a setup. But ez spins just don't. The chance to use them comes up too often, in my view, to be counted as worth anything.

Although allowing them to send lines adds more variety, so might lots of things, such as allspins, which at the moment the prevailing view seems to be against. This in itself is no reason to put a spin which requires no real skill to perform in.

I'm convinced if I told a noob friend how to tsd, they'd have no clue how to set it up - at least, they wouldn't have the foresight to do so. However ez spins anyone can see, and if I told a noob friend how to ez spin, they'd be able to do it without any problems. Just find a hole next to a wall, and instead of doing the natural thing, hard dropping, you soft drop and then rotate. There's just barely any tetris skill (by which I mean skill in placing blocks in strategic places, or setups) in that - at least according to me there isn't.

I don't think that they're dumb, and can see how effective they can be. This is precisely why I don't think they should be in the game - for what they are and how much skill it takes to perform them, they have too much effect. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for skilful t-spinning and amazing setups. I just don't like mini singles, which just don't seem like a real tspin to me.

I apologise to all Japanese players who read this and are outraged

[chopin]

Well, you're not supposed to take every T-Spin Mini that you can soft drop and kick. You're supposed to look at the field and see if it will be advantageous to you. If I'm doing a downstack combo, I usually won't take that one, puny extra line because I'm going to ruin the B2B with the next clear and it's not a good investment. But instead if I TSM to open up my Tetris hole, this will start the B2B for many Tetrises and T-Spins to come.

Many situations you also have to create the TSM. Many people also have it 'programmed' in their mind that you TSM even when you don't clear lines, which is counterproductive and pointless. It's possible to say that T-Spin Minis even have more depth to them than T-Spin Doubles do. Learning how to use TSM well takes a whole lot of practice.. which is what I'm doing right now. Also, Fin and Iso T-Spin Doubles definitely do count on all guideline games... even Tetris Friends. They're worth the same as regular TSD.

[Paul676]

Even if a tsm clears lines, and a skilful person can do them well, I don't see how it can be right for a game to allow someone to soft drop and spin something to gain points, when it's just as doable to hard drop it- the spin really is an unnecessary thing for a tsm - which is why I object to them sending lines or starting a b2b- it's just not in itself a high skill move - at the moment it can be part of one, for sure, but in itself, it isn't, and hence in my view it shouldn't keep b2b either, since it wouldn't be counted.

Also, note the subtle difference between the statement "the move is highly skilled" (i.e. in itself) and "highly skilled people can do the move well." As regards tsm, I deny the first one but agree on the 2nd. But that in itself isn't sufficient to make them right to be allowed.

In points iso and fin do, and it recognises them for sure, but I thought I did it in a trial and it didn't send the lines. My memory may have mistaken me, so please correct me if I'm wrong, either with a video, but if you say, I'll take you on your word anyway.

[chopin]

Yeah, I do them sometimes for fun on TF. A lot of people here also know how to do some of the setups too, i.e. Percisely, Coolman, Sonic, and a few more. With TSM, I find that they're just as hard to do as T-Spin Doubles... In any given game, I think you only run into a few presented possibilities without making them yourself.

[meow]

So much arguing

Having played TDS first, I loved those EZ spins. They sent 2 lines and 3 for B2B. TOJ decreased the power by 1 line and then TF removed it completely, B2B doesn't even send 1 line.

TOJ does many things right. The boosted B2B bonus from a TST is a nice touch. Comparing TOJ with TF, TOJ gives a greater incentive to go for varied styles of play (Tspin mini chains, TST triples).

Anyone remember that infinite setup? TSS-mini (not EZ), TST, repeat. Excluding the first non-b2b mini, it sends 7+3 lines on TDS, 8+2 on TOJ, 7+0 on TF. Each cycle clears 4 lines. Sending 10 lines is the correct amount as its equal to 2 B2B TSD. The mini nerf and b2b TST buff makes a lot of sense looking at it from this perspective.

Mini spins should definitely be included. I think EZ spins should be as well. Both increase the pace of the game through increased adding power, add variety to play styles, thus making the game more enjoyable. EZ spins are unnatural, but not imbalanced. Given the choice of a mini spin or a non-mini, you would almost always choose the latter.

[EnFuego]

So much arguing

Having played TDS first, I loved those EZ spins. They sent 2 lines and 3 for B2B. TOJ decreased the power by 1 line and then TF removed it completely, B2B doesn't even send 1 line.

TOJ does many things right. The boosted B2B bonus from a TST is a nice touch. Comparing TOJ with TF, TOJ gives a greater incentive to go for varied styles of play (Tspin mini chains, TST triples).

Anyone remember that infinite setup? TSS-mini (not EZ), TST, repeat. Excluding the first non-b2b mini, it sends 7+3 lines on TDS, 8+2 on TOJ, 7+0 on TF. Each cycle clears 4 lines. Sending 10 lines is the correct amount as its equal to 2 B2B TSD. The mini nerf and b2b TST buff makes a lot of sense looking at it from this perspective.

Mini spins should definitely be included. I think EZ spins should be as well. Both increase the pace of the game through increased adding power, add variety to play styles, thus making the game more enjoyable. EZ spins are unnatural, but not imbalanced. Given the choice of a mini spin or a non-mini, you would almost always choose the latter.

I don't think mini spins are comparable from TDS to other games. In TDS, the soft drop is brutally slow. It is faster to get a tetris at the start then it is to setup a t-spin and wait for the soft drop. Also, in tetris DS garbage didn't change on attack, giving 10 lines often a lot easier to downstack then 10 lines in TOJ.
But since TOJ is faster paced the game is still balanced because you can downstack faster without lock delay and line clear delay.

My point being, each game can have different add tables and ruleset and still be balanced based on how fast the game version is. TOJ happens to be balanced, and is fast so people look to that as an optimal ruleset.

[Wrathi]

I'd like to see Tetris game on Steam. Right now we can only play TOJ/Nullpomino if we don't want a browser based game. Steam has millions of users online and it would probably increase popularity of Tetris and maybe create a better competitive scene for those who want it.

[SiRTeTRiS]

"I think a staff member said that competitive Tetris players were just a small part of the community. Well yeah.... just like how in Starcraft or Counter-strike the amount of serious players were outnumbered by the amount of casual players."

Just to quote a small portion of that...for every sport/game out there it's not the mass numbers that people want to be its the select few.  The greats give every regular person something to aspire to become...I for one know this to be true.  I remember that when I started Tetris and granted I played for years on my own and was fine with that but once I came across BB and saw how amazing some of you were I know I immediately set goals for myself to become better in certain areas.  Without the "select few" the status quo wouldn't care as much and people enjoy watching the "select few" play as they're able to learn from it...look at the NBA, NFL, MMA, Genius Minds, Authors, Actors, Musicians, etc.  It's less then 1% of 1% that we all watch growing up and idolize/want to be...if that's their take on it then it really makes them even more ignorant then I already thought they were.  

Here's a post I made a long time back on DAS/AR settings on TF Forums that got thrown to the waste side basically.

"After this most recent garbage change it's made me realize that it should no longer be up to whoever it is running it and letting it be set at one specific option. I really think you guys need to leave it up to the players via sliders now or some sort of option. So you'd customize how random garbage is for one, soft drop speed as another, amount of lock delay/rotate time before a piece locks in and I'm sure my peers on here can come up with some others.

So for example default would be like 5/5/.5 secs(after it touches down before gravity locks it in) but if players wanted to customize garbage and make it tougher to downstack, which is my personal reason for even playing to begin with then we could set it to 10 and it be much tougher garbage or if people want it to be simple like it is now then set it to 0 and have it go in 1 straight line for 16 lines...I mean honestly I don't even know what to say with this most recent release as far as garbage is concerned.

The only thing clear to me is that it's time to give the people playing the game(s) the power back and allow them to select from variables/options of more specific things if they wish."

I feel this holds true for tournaments as well.  Until they either leave it up to us players to run something or they hire at least one of us to focus on getting tournaments going or at least give our first hand input then Competitive Tetris wont make much decent headway.

[Blink]

There is something I need to say about the tournament, and the competitive scene.  When I found out that the tournament would no longer be official I was as disappointed as you guys are, and I've been getting some messages saying that since TTC backed out of it we should ditch the whole idea and host it on a different game.  While I agree that we should not be satisfied with TTC's rejection of hosting an official tournament and giving us something less (and we aren't), TOA's willingness to still try to work with the community by donating prizes and doing TF gameplay changes shows they are still trying.  People are saying that the prizes are going to suck or that the changes aren't enough, but that's not the point.  I could care less what the prizes are, it's that they're listening and trying to do something for the community that matters. It's hard to turn your back on something like this because it's really one of the few times in history that a Tetris community and Tetris game developer are coming together.  We have to walk before we run and so I'm taking this positive gesture as a first step.  Anyways, our best bet is to wait.  Let's see this tournament through, do everything in our power to make it as successful as we possibly can.  Afterwards we can re-evaluate what needs to be done and determine what will give the best future for competitive Tetris.  Not to mention that if we were to back out now after all of this trouble, they will probably never listen to us or any Tetris community again.  I'm confident that competitive Tetris will be a reality, I just don't know yet if it's going to be done with or without developer support.

With the current stagnant state of Tetris (TGM4 cancelled, TTC problems), the Tetris scene is currently at a crossroads.  I think this tournament will determine where we're going to go as a community.  Be patient.