Competitive Tetris Scene Rant

[chopin]

Ok, so I am truly excited and will hope that this will come to fruition! I have a few ideas and points that I think are very important and should be addressed. Anyone who has ever played with me knows that I am an spin crack addict, but I think that the "standard" game should be kept to a strongly-competitive, simple, yet also depthful game.

180 Spins and All-Spin scoring are great fun, but I think having these will discourage many potential players, both old and new. Again, as I've said before, there are really only a handful of players who are decently fluent at T-Spins, let alone Other Spins. Many players don't even know that you can spin pieces, and again, many players don't know how.

I feel that if such a game is introduced, people will quit it before they try it. To attract and unite worldwide players into one game, the gameplay can't be completely foreign to what people are already used to [with popular current online multiplayer Tetris]. To prolong the interest of competitive Tetris, waiting to include All-Spin Scoring and 180 Spins might be wise. Once the game is already popular, it will be more fitting to introduce new, crazier things. Prematurely introducing these now will make people feel isolated that this is no longer Tetris.

The standard ruleset will have to be solid - meaning that users can't change [many?] options. This will produce a uniform game that will be the basis of tournaments, etc. Too many options will divide types gameplay and will be counter-productive to creating a uniform game and rules. Of course as a game, it will have to have other things to spice it up such as 1 Player modes, fun game rooms with map options etc., and also practice modes.

Other obvious things include zero-line clear delay, IRS and IHS made standard for all, no lag, etc. Personal customization is essential. In player settings, each player should have soft drop speed, sonic drop option, full option range of DAS, full option range of ARR, Tetrimino settings, and maybe personal color/gameplay schemes.

Combo chart will have to be not overpowered, but not so weak that it's no longer a feasible opening strategy. Combos will also have to be strong enough so that a decent downstack sends some garbage, but it should not be too powerful as how it currently is for TF and TOJ, in my opinion. The benefit for trying to get a cleaner field is just that - a cleaner field. Working to build real attacks whilst surviving should be main point of game, and just downstacking contradicts that and produces poor players.

The garbage has to be not too complex (i.e. BlockBox) and yet not too elementary (i.e. Tetris Friends E+). Maybe a balance of in-between messiness/cleanliness. Also having the B2B garbage line act differently is a great incentive to keep B2B strength. Tetris seems to be fine how it is because B2B Tetrises will be strong enough due to the B2B behaviour. T-Spin probably same as Tetris. Weak T-Spin Mini seems fine to me (+1 act like B2B garbage?). I also like "Hurry-Up" garbage because it adds a great "end-game" element to the game. It also makes matches more intense and more fun to watch. It will also limit boring, lengthy games.

Spectating should be made nice and should allow for spectators [as well as the players] to see post-game stats including APM, TPM, T-Spins, Tetrises, Max Combo, Garbage Returned/Cancelled, etc. Players and spectators should be able to see stats of the last 5 games or so. Maybe this game can also try to make people interested in an entertainment aspect of Tetris. Having nice spectating will help this.

Of course all of this will have to be tested for ideally weeks or even months with different range of players and skill level. Gameplay and numbers should be tweaked until they seem right. If this is going to be a U.S.-based release meant for WORLDWIDE competition, I don't want to be embarrassed to welcome other players to a failed game. Anyways, so this is my view on the matter. It's not really that different than what most of us are used to playing - except that it will have good/easy customization and hopefully amazing smooth/precise gameplay - unlike that of the current U.S.-based game... Tetris Friends.

[bach_of_tetris]

I completely agree with the no all spins option. In fact I don't even like
t-spins, I tried to convince my friends at school to play tetris and they go watch me play in plat rooms and say wtf is this t spins bullshit, that move is impossible. Maybe SRS rules could stick, but t spins wouldn't be rewarded, I don't even know how the hell t-spin triples were allowed in the game. To the point where t spins and even combos become more used than tetrises is just completely against the spirit of the game. By removing this stuff the game would then separate the good players from the not so good as much as possible.

[Spirale]

I completely agree with the no all spins option. In fact I don't even like
t-spins, I tried to convince my friends at school to play tetris and they go watch me play in plat rooms and say wtf is this t spins bullshit, that move is impossible. Maybe SRS rules could stick, but t spins wouldn't be rewarded, I don't even know how the hell t-spin triples were allowed in the game. To the point where t spins and even combos become more used than tetrises is just completely against the spirit of the game. By removing this stuff the game would then separate the good players from the not so good as much as possible.

you guys are tetris conservatives. why not remove hold and keep only one preview while you're at it.

[bach_of_tetris]

you guys are tetris conservatives. why not remove hold and keep only one preview while you're at it.

They are not as wacky as all spins.

[Paul676]

I'd say no ez spins (for the reason that having a trigger in your head saying "soft drop here" isn't a. spectator friendly and b. actually a real skill in tetris). Everyone here seems to love tspin minis so I'll let that one slide, although I'm not sure if that's really a skill either. Tspin only - even though I prefer no spins, we already have blockbox for that. Also, the majority of players online (tf, toj and hangame) will be used to t-spins. It's also foolhardy to put in an experimental rule, which is in effect what all spins is, in a "world cup ready" game.

Combos- I like neither the suggestion that amazing combo downstacks should get penalised (i.e. 0,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,1,1,1,1,2) and throwing the amazing combo downstack sirtetris style baby out with the 4 wide bathwater, but also admit that combos as they are now are too overpowered, especially 4 wides. So I suggest a reduced table such as (0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)

Instant ar is necessary, as is das fast enough for me/s2k/other light-handed people, so that would be down to 5 in blockbox, or even quicker! Instant soft drop is also necessary, as is instant line clear delay. Why wait even 1/10th of a second in the "perfect game" which will be world cup ready?

It can't be on a website, it must be a download thing. Or at least, with the option of that. If we want it to be "world cup ready," we can't be dealing with lag.

As regards 180 rotation and the twists that go along with it: 180 rotation option is necessary, otherwise players who use it for finesse (I'm thinking arf and sand) will be at a massive disadvantage for no real good reason. 180 spins I see no problem with, as long as only ones with t are rewarded. It is a skill to 180 rotate with t into a hole. That way the rest of them will send maximum 2 lines, and aren't such a problem.

[meow]

Combos- I like neither the suggestion that amazing combo downstacks should get penalised (i.e. 0,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,1,1,1,1,2) and throwing the amazing combo downstack sirtetris style baby out with the 4 wide bathwater, but also admit that combos as they are now are too overpowered, especially 4 wides. So I suggest a reduced table such as (0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)

As regards 180 rotation and the twists that go along with it: 180 rotation option is necessary, otherwise players who use it for finesse (I'm thinking arf and sand) will be at a massive disadvantage for no real good reason. 180 spins I see no problem with, as long as only ones with t are rewarded. It is a skill to 180 rotate with t into a hole. That way the rest of them will send maximum 2 lines, and aren't such a problem.

I would like to point out that a combo table of 0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,1,1 (very different to the one you used lol) would only penalize these amazing combo downstacks in a very small proportion of games. A reduced table would change the gameplay dramatically by lowering chances of comebacks when pressured at the top among other things.

I think we can agree that no one wants to see competitive tetris being reduced to 4wide stacking. There is no perfect solution but let's look at their pros and cons.

new combo table
+ prevents 4wide if it is reduced enough
- will change every game that includes mid-level combos

repeated combo table
+ prevents 4wide
- reduces the very rare 10+ downstack combo, which would most likely kill off the opponent if it reached 10 anyway. Probability of not rewarding this combo = chances of occurring * chances of combo not killing = super rare

180 spins with T does not require skills. In fact, it takes skill away from good stacking because you can fix up blunders easily.

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[Spirale]

180 spins with T does not require skills. In fact, it takes skill away from good stacking because you can fix up blunders easily.

The notion of good stacking depends on the type of game you are playing.
If the game allows for 180 spins then it is good stacking to prepare your stack in order to be able to do those,the same way it is good stacking to create overhangs in t-spin rewarding games, but it certainly isn't in  games that do not reward t-spins. Same for combos, etc...
You can say that you prefer one ruleset over another because you have more fun with that one ruleset,but I don't think there is any objective reason why one would be "better" or "fairer" than another.

[L-mino]

I would like to point out that a combo table of 0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,1,1 (very different to the one you used lol) would only penalize these amazing combo downstacks in a very small proportion of games. A reduced table would change the gameplay dramatically by lowering chances of comebacks when pressured at the top among other things.

actually i prefer Pauls solution. here is why: (and yes, i do realize that it's very specific situation), say i started downstacking and got really lucky and made a huge combo (im not talking about combo openers), and at some point i can either stop the combo and make the stack cleaner, or continue comboing and getting two more hits and leaving complete mess (i hope you know what i mean).
and unless i have counted my hits i don't know if the risky hits (leaving messy stack) will add 4 lines or only 1 line... 4 lines added and KO? sure, one like and messy stack ? no thanks....
otherwise i like this idea

[Paul676]

Meow- the 180 rotate in the 2nd case wouldn't reward bad stacking - it just doesn't penalise it. It's a shame that srs allows you not to get penalised for bad stacking, but with no allspins, the damage done is not great, so there is no reward for bad stacking as it were. But your first case is fine- it deserves to be in the repertoire of a good player, because you've made the gap, and then placed your S piece in a way which allows the spin to be done. Certainly it's more skilful than ez spins. And that downside is worth having for the extra finesse option for those that want/need it.

With the earlier suggestion for the combo table (the repeated combo table) it is still a faulty rule, and even if the fault only comes up in 1/40 games, I for one would be very annoyed if I'd made a great ds combo and I get basically as much reward as someone who might have carried on their combo 2 less. It's arbitrary where you put the "repeating point", so in one game carrying on 2 more times would give 8 bonus, and another one may give 2 bonus, even though it's a higher combo. It basicallyand it seems to me to be an unintuitive solution to the problem.

[chopin]

I'm sorry, Paul, but I'm going to be blunt. I don't like some of the ideas you are expressing. First off, this is supposed to be a game that will try to attract player worldwide as well as unite players of various online multiplayers. Do you realize how boring it is to watch pure Tetris games? It may be interesting for a while, but all you can look forward to is a pro downstacking and a Triple Tetris. You might as well go watch NES Tetris or play 5P Sprint. Why in the world we introduce a new game that needs to gain popularity by taking out T-Spins?

Secondly, people don't understand the proness of EZ and Mini T-Spins. This somewhat frustrates me. Paul, you put it down, but from watching you play, I know that you don't know how to use it. It's an extremely minute, underestimated skill that is very powerful. This is actually one of the most pro skills I've ever come across. It and T-Spin adds a level of depth to game that would otherwise be boring. Having All Spins and 180 Spins are interesting, but they are just too crazy - at least for now. Below are just a few examples of great T-Spin Mini/EZ. I literally never see anyone knowing how to do them and how important they are - except for Blink, Hebo-MAI, and a few others.


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[Agamemnon]

Starting to wonder if the 0-0-1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-4-4-4-etc table is the best?
In all honesty, if you let your opponent do more than 13 in a 4-wide opener, you deserve to lose... The 3x repeat capping at 4 could be more balanced though

Also, make the game delete all pieces that go over the top bar. There's just something ridiculously wrong with having 10 lines of 'stack' going outside of the game field. Some of the older tetris games would have you lose when that happened, but I feel that's taking it a bit far...

[Maii04]

combos shouldnt give 4 lines period

[meow]

And why shouldn't they?

Seriously, I'm led to believe that most of you have not played long back and forth matches before. The current system in TOJ is pretty much a perfect balance of spins and combos. That's why I believe changing any of it will tip over the balance. Increase combo strength (like TF) and it becomes a combo shitfest. Decrease combo strength and it becomes spin hell.

[chopin]

Meow, maybe you're right. What's the combo table of TF compared to TOJ again?

[EnFuego]

Can't we just not reward 180 spins but have 180 rotate?
I don't see any other reason not to have 180 rotate besides crazy spins. For people who want to learn all the crazy spins can use those to fix mistakes.