Competitive Tetris Scene Rant

[Someone2knoe]

Most people who try nullpo like it. I don't think we are that hard to please. We usually just hate when gameplay is limited. Most people who try blockbox or nullpo like it. The most common problem people have is that no one plays. Because everyone is on tf. They don't realize how limited they are on tf until they play a better game.

Also adding a competitive element isn't such a huge risk. It's not going to kill them to make tournaments. Especially since they can be hosted online until the amount of players grows. Do you really think less people will play or they will waste money by hosting tournaments? Highly doubt that. When something gets competitive the competitive player base as well as the casual players increase in number. Competition would be better for tetris. And tetris ds competition wouldn't ever stay big because consoles get outdated for the majority of people. Computer games can always be up to date and more importantly are way more accessible than console games.

[Karui]

It's pretty obvious that what has been said is true, but honestly I doubt if any of the developers are listening. They're so greedy that all they care about is revenue. Like that person in Blink's post said, "They lack the vision." I'll do whatever I can, but it may be years or may never happen. I'll keep my hopes up though, because who knows, it may actually happen.

[Rosti_LFC]

Most people who try nullpo like it. I don't think we are that hard to please.

Two points:

1) Nullpo is free. People have far lower standards about what they're willing to try, and what they "like" when they're being offered something for nothing. I mean, personally, I find Nullpomino to have a pretty confusing interface with the sheer number of modes and options, and I'm hardly a tetris n00b. Any sort of game that basically requires you to have things explained or for you to read the manual before you play it is pretty much guaranteed failure nowadays, when most people expect to be able to just pick up and play. If I'd paid money for Nullpo, I wouldn't be that happy with it.

2) Who exactly are you basing this "most people" out of. "Most people" that you've personally introduced to the game? "Most people" on HardDrop? If by "most people" you mean anything other than "most people out of the general population" then what you're saying doesn't mean anything because you're basing it off an extremely biased sample. I can say that 100% of people I've recommended God Is An Astronaut to like their music, but that doesn't mean that every single person in the world would like it, because that's not how music works. It's just that I'm fairly choice in my recommendations, and only recommend them to someone if I'm fairly sure they'll like it. As it stands, they're a pretty obscure band, which would back up the idea that the number of people who like them is significantly under 100%.

We usually just hate when gameplay is limited. Most people who try blockbox or nullpo like it. The most common problem people have is that no one plays. Because everyone is on tf. They don't realize how limited they are on tf until they play a better game.

And what do you mean here by "limited"? Do you mean that you can't customise options and settings, because if TTC want to make a competitive Tetris format, then customisation of anything that you can't already customise on Tetris friends (ie. DAS, etc) is exactly the opposite of what they want to do.  To make a popular competitive game, you need an established single rule-set or it just doesn't work. That's why sporting governing bodies like FIFA and the FIA exist - to make sure that everyone worldwide uses the same rules as best as possible. Half the reason (aside from bugs) that Hebo netplay didn't really take off in the early days is that nobody could easily agree what settings to play with.

Also adding a competitive element isn't such a huge risk. It's not going to kill them to make tournaments. Especially since they can be hosted online until the amount of players grows. Do you really think less people will play or they will waste money by hosting tournaments? Highly doubt that. When something gets competitive the competitive player base as well as the casual players increase in number.

Except they'll have to completely recreate the entire Tetris image to be based around competitive multiplayer gameplay, rather than a single-player mum-friendly puzzle game. Which could massively reduce the number of people who buy the game, because they'd be changing pretty much their entire target market demographic.

And tetris ds competition wouldn't ever stay big because consoles get outdated for the majority of people. Computer games can always be up to date and more importantly are way more accessible than console games.

Haha, wut? Have you actually followed general gaming stuff recently, or did you stop back in the early days of the PlayStation? PC gaming is declining massively, companies are looking far more to develop games for consoles because they're less easily pirated and they make far, far more money.

In it's first week, CoD MW2 sold 1.7 million copies in the UK, of which PC sales accounted for only 3%. To suggest consoles are outdated is utterly stupid - console versions of games are far, far more popular than PC games. In 2007 PC games made up only 14% of total game sales and I'm fairly sure that statistic isn't going to have gotten much better since then. If TTC are going to release a competitive online Tetris game, they'll really struggle for it to make money and be successful if it's PC-only. The only reason games like StarCraft and WoW are popular for the PC is that they're pretty much impossible to create for consoles with an interface that'll work easily. For pretty much all other games, the mainstream shift is now massively on consoles.

[Blink]

And what do you mean here by "limited"? Do you mean that you can't customise options and settings, because if TTC want to make a competitive Tetris format, then customisation of anything that you can't already customise on Tetris friends (ie. DAS, etc) is exactly the opposite of what they want to do.  To make a popular competitive game, you need an established single rule-set or it just doesn't work. That's why sporting governing bodies like FIFA and the FIA exist - to make sure that everyone worldwide uses the same rules as best as possible. Half the reason (aside from bugs) that Hebo netplay didn't really take off in the early days is that nobody could easily agree what settings to play with.

I agree with this, for Tetris to have a major global tournament then there has to be uniform rules across all regions/games.  I was trying to point this out by creating similar rulesets for HD's ladder.  They will never be able to make everyone happy, there will always be some who disagree with the rules just like there are with sports.  But once they have a ruleset down and provide tournaments with prizes for them, then players have no choice but to adjust if they want to compete.  After that, tweaks can be made to the rules to tune them further.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Except they'll have to completely recreate the entire Tetris image to be based around competitive multiplayer gameplay, rather than a single-player mum-friendly puzzle game. Which could massively reduce the number of people who buy the game, because they'd be changing pretty much their entire target market demographic.
[/quote]

IMO hosting tournaments would be a small risk financially. Nobody is asking them to recreate Tetris, some games are tournament ready already, and some have done very well during online tournaments (TOJ for example) . They just need to add a competitive aspect by providing the prizes and venue for such an event, with the exception of Tetris Friends which still has some game balance issues which are pointed out in the Expert HD thread.   By providing tournaments, their image will not automatically be changed into a competitive multiplayer game, I wish it worked that quickly.  The casual players will still buy/play the game because nothing has changed for them, and this will increase purchases from players who didn't buy the game because it lacked competition.  I think what you're talking about is if they wanted it to be an e-sport, but S2K was only mentioning them to add a competitive aspect.  Tournaments are needed in order for an e-sport to happen, so we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves and focus on the start rather than the finish.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Haha, wut? Have you actually followed general gaming stuff recently, or did you stop back in the early days of the PlayStation? PC gaming is declining massively, companies are looking far more to develop games for consoles because they're less easily pirated and they make far, far more money.
In it's first week, CoD MW2 sold 1.7 million copies in the UK, of which PC sales accounted for only 3%. To suggest consoles are outdated is utterly stupid - console versions of games are far, far more popular than PC games. In 2007 PC games made up only 14% of total game sales and I'm fairly sure that statistic isn't going to have gotten much better since then.
[/quote]

It's misleading to use a specific time/location statistic to say that PC sales are dying, especially one from 3 years ago as the industry changes quickly.  For example, one PC game alone outsold every console game combined for the month it was released: http://news.bigdownload.com/2010/08/12/sta...n-july-npd-res/
I do read gaming websites and found that BOTH PC game sales and Console sales are declining.  But in the end this isn't even a console vs pc debate, and a tournament on Tetris for any platform would be better than none at all.  Baby steps at first, we need tournaments period.  Longer down the line we can worry about the single game that will be standard for competition.


In other news, someone important from TOA contacted me about the movement.  He apologized and said he would help us by forwarding the links to the appropriate TTC people.  I will e-mail them myself as well though, just incase.

[Someone2knoe]

My point was never about which got more sales so I don't know why you even brought that up. My point was that consoles become outdated (or maybe you still play playstation from the early days?)

It will take a long time before people stop using PC's. Gaming consoles on the other hand will get outdated and will need to have another console released after a while. Of course it could still be used as the platform, only they would have to develop the game for every system that comes out and the game would constantly change for whatever system it comes out for. And I think we agree that it needs a determined rule set. Playing on a gameboy for example is a lot different than playing using a joystick. Do we want a game that will change how we operate it every time a new system comes out?

And my other point was that computers are more accessible. If you want proof of that you can look up how many computers people have per household as compared to gaming consoles. Then consider many public libraries also have computers. But its mostly common sense to know that more people have computers, making them more accessible.


Regarding what I said about nullpo yes I based it on people I have asked to try it. And also the general opinion that I see when I read things about nullpo. So you can say that it's biased but I would also say that from what I have witnessed more people are content with it. I guess you can go on believing that people don't like nullpo compared to TF. You don't see any hate-posts on nullpo, but you can see tons about TF.

And btw TF is also free (last time I checked). So you say people have lower standards for free games, well due to my low standards I still enjoy nullpo, and don't like TF very much. The only thing I like about TF is that its tetris, but it hurts to play because of certain aspects of it.

I definitely agree competition would require a standardized ruleset, because by limitations I meant:

1. Lag
2. Horrible Line Clear Delay
3. The need to unlock custom DAS or AR. Frankly I won't even make the effort because the process would be tedious and I would be forced to play uncomfortably. I shouldn't have to play over and over uncomfortably to gain unlocks. And even then its just presets so I can't play optimally.

It is possible to improve these qualities drastically.

There is absolutely no reason they would have to recreate their entire image so that notion doesn't really make sense to me. The way we conceptualize it depends on whoever is playing. For example, some people see tetris as a casual game. I don't see it like that, I see it as intensely competitive. Why? because I choose to be competitive while others don't.

But people won't even know it can be competitive without there being any tournaments. So basically the main step they need to take is to have an actual tournament, not spend tons of money trying to change their image because that would be completely pointless as you probably agree.

[Rosti_LFC]

It will take a long time before people stop using PC's. Gaming consoles on the other hand will get outdated and will need to have another console released after a while. Of course it could still be used as the platform, only they would have to develop the game for every system that comes out and the game would constantly change for whatever system it comes out for. And I think we agree that it needs a determined rule set. Playing on a gameboy for example is a lot different than playing using a joystick. Do we want a game that will change how we operate it every time a new system comes out?

So they'll have to release a new game every four or five years because new consoles will come out. How exactly is that bad for them? They'll want to release new games fairly often anyway, because otherwise their source of income will dry up, unless they release some sort of subscription based Tetris game.

And even on PC you get new games and updates. It's not like games such as Quake, Counter-Strike or StarCraft have kept the same version forever. And you get games like FIFA that are played competitively and new versions come out every single year.

And my other point was that computers are more accessible. If you want proof of that you can look up how many computers people have per household as compared to gaming consoles. Then consider many public libraries also have computers. But its mostly common sense to know that more people have computers, making them more accessible.

Yeah, and every single household also has more spoons than computers. Maybe TTC should release some sort of cutlery-based Tetris game.

The fact more houses have computers means very little when PC games don't sell particularly well. The fact that more computers exist than consoles is entirely meaningless if TTC will sell six or seven console versions for each PC version sold. It doesn't matter whether people can play a game version. It matters whether people will.

Regarding what I said about nullpo yes I based it on people I have asked to try it. And also the general opinion that I see when I read things about nullpo. So you can say that it's biased but I would also say that from what I have witnessed more people are content with it. I guess you can go on believing that people don't like nullpo compared to TF. You don't see any hate-posts on nullpo, but you can see tons about TF.

The only reason you don't see hate-posts for nullpomino is because it's well known that it's actively in development, and because people either overlook everything that's crap in nullpomino or they just don't play it. And every suggestion for something to be added is something that could arguably be a hate-post if it wasn't for the fact that people can personally talk to the devs.

The number of complaints also isn't that relevant. Confusing and overcomplicated menus and feature options aren't something people are going to complain about when they're playing the game for it's vast customisability, but it is something that would be a massive turn-off to your average person, who isn't a hard-core Tetris nut.

And btw TF is also free (last time I checked). So you say people have lower standards for free games, well due to my low standards I still enjoy nullpo, and don't like TF very much. The only thing I like about TF is that its tetris, but it hurts to play because of certain aspects of it.

Except TF isn't really free if you want all the DAS options and stuff. You either have to pay, grind for absolutely ages, or join a few dating sites to get rubies. And I'd argue that with all the DAS options and such unlocked TF is actually a fairly decent game. It has a couple of issues, but it's perfectly possible to have high-level matches on it.

2. Horrible Line Clear Delay

What's wrong with line clear delay? Clear more tetrises rather than individual lines, get fewer delays, play faster. I don't see the issue.

3. The need to unlock custom DAS or AR. Frankly I won't even make the effort because the process would be tedious and I would be forced to play uncomfortably. I shouldn't have to play over and over uncomfortably to gain unlocks. And even then its just presets so I can't play optimally.

Again, there's no issue with this either. You can pay a small amount of money to instantly unlock all the custom DAS in Tetris Friends. It's not extortionate, and TTC are perfectly entitled to ask for some sort of fee to unlock the high-level gameplay if you're a serious player. It seems bad of them to charge people, but when you take into account the total cost to play a Tetris game, it's much cheaper than if you'd just bought the game outright.

The fact that even the hardcore players are unwilling to pay a small premium for these sorts of features doesn't really help the cause that making a game catering to the hardcore players would be profitable.

There is absolutely no reason they would have to recreate their entire image so that notion doesn't really make sense to me. The way we conceptualize it depends on whoever is playing. For example, some people see tetris as a casual game. I don't see it like that, I see it as intensely competitive. Why? because I choose to be competitive while others don't.

It does depend on who is playing, but the fact that the people who even know about competitive Tetris is an absolutely tiny majority is what's the problem, and it's why they have to recreate their image.


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
IMO hosting tournaments would be a small risk financially. Nobody is asking them to recreate Tetris, some games are tournament ready already, and some have done very well during online tournaments (TOJ for example) . They just need to add a competitive aspect by providing the prizes and venue for such an event, with the exception of Tetris Friends which still has some game balance issues which are pointed out in the Expert HD thread.
[/quote]
I get what you're saying here, but I still think that even by offering these tournaments in the US they'd struggle to really break through anything. It'd be nice if they'd at least try it out and see how things go, but I can't see them attracting huge sustained interest from competitors outside of the current scene unless the prize money was decent or they did quite a lot of them.

One thing they can play on to their advantage is the fact that a lot of people reckon they're pretty sh**-hot at Tetris when actually compared to the real hardcore players they're rubbish. If they exploited that there's a chance that things could go somewhere.

They'd still need to create a good game to start with to use as a format though, as pointed out by your "with the exception of Tetris Friends".


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
It's misleading to use a specific time/location statistic to say that PC sales are dying, especially one from 3 years ago as the industry changes quickly. For example, one PC game alone outsold every console game combined for the month it was released: http://news.bigdownload.com/2010/08/12/sta...n-july-npd-res/
[/quote]
That article is misleading too. Re-read it. It says that StarCraft II only beat the combined sales of NCAA Football 11 for the PS3 and Xbox 360 (721,000 vs 667,000), and not all console games combined. Plus that article mentions that StarCraft II essentially doubled the entire sales revenue for PC games for the month, which would imply that the entire market for PC games is about 700,000 a month, which implies in turn that your bestselling console game usually sells roughly the same amount as all PC sales combined every month.
So if anything, that article just reinforces the fact that console games massively outstrip PC games in terms of sales.

I'd hate playing competitive VS Tetris on anything other than a keyboard, but you can't really deny that it's definitely where most of the sales are.

[Blink]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
That article is misleading too.
[/quote]

I agree, that was the point I was trying to make.  It was an example of a misleading article which shouldn't be used - it makes it sound like PC games are doing so much better than console games by focusing on only 1 game and 1 month.  I didn't read the article at all, I already knew it was misleading by the title.

[chopin]

We KNOW that we're being pushy and that we seem to be taking things for granted, but the fact is that we love the game and it's a shame that this aspect of the game is being neglected. I don't doubt that we would be willing to help in practically any way if necessary - whether it be testing, input, research, advertising, discussion, etc. Many of our members here are some of the most Tetris Talented players in the world. We are available to help with knowledge and ideas if necessary. We want to work towards giving the game a strong competitive and entertainment aspect. And unlike many other games, Tetris is a somewhat of a classic that will survive like Chess, Mahjong, or Poker - far longer than any other electronic game out there will. Super Smash Brothers may die out in decade or so, but competitive Tetris will still be around.

[Someone2knoe]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]So they'll have to release a new game every four or five years because new consoles will come out. How exactly is that bad for them? They'll want to release new games fairly often anyway, because otherwise their source of income will dry up, unless they release some sort of subscription based Tetris game[/quote]

Well the issue I have with that is that consoles are always changing in the way that you play it. I think that is bad competitively since people prefer certain controllers over others, and in my opinion the keyboard is ideal for multiplayer tetris, and it would always be a keyboard if it was a PC game. So in that sense a PC version wouldn't die out. I just don't think tetris on console games reaches the same potential the computer ones can. Unless they made a controller more similar to a keyboard or better. Controllers usually require too much use of thumbs.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Yeah, and every single household also has more spoons than computers. Maybe TTC should release some sort of cutlery-based Tetris game.

The fact more houses have computers means very little when PC games don't sell particularly well. The fact that more computers exist than consoles is entirely meaningless if TTC will sell six or seven console versions for each PC version sold. It doesn't matter whether people can play a game version. It matters whether people will. [/quote]

Okay the spoon thing was just lol. We are talking about possible means to play tetris, so the fact that computers are more accessible is kind of important.  And the issue I'm arguing is about tournaments being good for TTC. I'm not saying console tournaments are bad, I just think it would competitively reach its full potential on a PC. Though consoles might make them more money in sales, I think more people are bound to participate on the computer.

Plus more people play TF than the console based versions as far as I know. Which is kind of an indicator people would rather play it on their computer.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]The only reason you don't see hate-posts for nullpomino is because it's well known that it's actively in development, and because people either overlook everything that's crap in nullpomino or they just don't play it. And every suggestion for something to be added is something that could arguably be a hate-post if it wasn't for the fact that people can personally talk to the devs.

The number of complaints also isn't that relevant. Confusing and overcomplicated menus and feature options aren't something people are going to complain about when they're playing the game for it's vast customisability, but it is something that would be a massive turn-off to your average person, who isn't a hard-core Tetris nut.[/quote]

If nullpo was like tf, and it was actively in development I wouldnt care. I would still hate it. People don't hold back just because they think its in development. It really is a great game.

what I agree with is that the interface is confusing, which can easily be changed. But when it comes to the gameplay it is pretty great. I prefer the gameplay over the menu type stuff. For example TOJ is easy to navigate through. But the gameplay sucks. Therefore I would rather play nullpo.

Nullpo could keep its complexity and just make it user friendly. And I'm sure people would like it over tf except for the fact that less people play it. Even so, the people who know how to play nullpo at its current state like it.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Except TF isn't really free if you want all the DAS options and stuff. You either have to pay, grind for absolutely ages, or join a few dating sites to get rubies. And I'd argue that with all the DAS options and such unlocked TF is actually a fairly decent game. It has a couple of issues, but it's perfectly possible to have high-level matches on it.[/quote]

Yeah thats part of the limitations. Why would I pay for something I can get for free on nullpo or blockbox? And even if I get the unlocks, it won't be ideal. It has presets. Comfort is a huge part of playing, and I can't play at my best without it. Meaning its limiting. And yes with the unlocks it is a lot less sucky.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]What's wrong with line clear delay? Clear more tetrises rather than individual lines, get fewer delays, play faster. I don't see the issue.[/quote]

You can't play to your full potential with line clear delay, you literally are forced to wait in between each line clear. Horrible for sprint too because you can't do a 6-3 gap - skimming will slow you down a lot.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Again, there's no issue with this either. You can pay a small amount of money to instantly unlock all the custom DAS in Tetris Friends. It's not extortionate, and TTC are perfectly entitled to ask for some sort of fee to unlock the high-level gameplay if you're a serious player. It seems bad of them to charge people, but when you take into account the total cost to play a Tetris game, it's much cheaper than if you'd just bought the game outright.
[/quote]

Money is money to some people, just because you see no issue in a small amount of money doesn't mean everyone will brush it off and pay up. Of course they are entitled to have a fee, but why pay for something you can have for free.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]The fact that even the hardcore players are unwilling to pay a small premium for these sorts of features doesn't really help the cause that making a game catering to the hardcore players would be profitable.[/quote]

Its not just hardcore players we are talking about. We are talking about competitive players. And even people who play TF are competitive. They often think they are really good, until they play a truly hardcore players. Most of us can transfer to tf and beat tf-born players because we have experience on better games that have useful features to improve our skills. That basically spells out that tf is limited.

But a good thing to note is that even casual players would enjoy and participate in tournaments.

[Blink]

Something about the whole PC vs Console thing.  

Since we're talking about competitive Tetris, I think using keyboard and PC would be the best platform for unleashing player potentials and uncap the limitation of having to use a gamepad.

Just like how real-time strategy gaming is more popular on the computer, despite console gaming being more popular overall.  This is partly because RTS skills are severely limited on a gamepad.

[Someone2knoe]

Something about the whole PC vs Console thing.  

Since we're talking about competitive Tetris, I think using keyboard and PC would be the best platform for unleashing player potentials and uncap the limitation of having to use a gamepad.

Just like how real-time strategy gaming is more popular on the computer, despite console gaming being more popular overall.  This is partly because RTS skills are severely limited on a gamepad.

Exactly my point, keyboards (and mouse) are currently the most versatile instrument to use as a controller for a game (specifically tetris). But people can easily take that statement as PC > Console, which is not what I'm trying to say.

Not only that but gamepads constantly change as new consoles come out, meaning the gameplay will change for every console if competitive tetris is done that way.

[Kitaru]

Not significantly.

[Someone2knoe]

Well if you look at what is already out there:

Gameboy, Joystick, Xbox, Wii

Pretty significant differences to me in the way that you control the pieces.

[bach_of_tetris]

What's wrong with line clear delay? Clear more tetrises rather than individual lines, get fewer delays, play faster. I don't see the issue.

But is separates the gap between good players and bad players. eg: Blink will bash most people 10-0 without line clear delay but on tf someone might get lucky.

[Kitaru]

Well if you look at what is already out there:

Gameboy, Joystick, Xbox, Wii

Pretty significant differences to me in the way that you control the pieces.

If the console has a good d-pad, I don't think it matters a whole lot. NES, SNES, N64, GB, DS, Wii Classic, PlayStation... I'm sure there are more. Xbox is a different case because its d-pad is atrocious. If you don't like the stock hardware and for some reason there aren't any good commercial alternatives, it really isn't hard to rig up something yourself or find someone willing to do it for you.

Joystick is a different beast because it is a optional route and significant departure from standard console fare. If we're talking about not using one, you have it easy. In the other case, it is still not especially difficult to get your stick rigged up to whatever console you please.

I should just start selling multiconsole "keyboard sticks" that use arcade buttons for keys. That'd stop the complaining, I'll bet. :P