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Great guide!

I feel like DT Cannon's main strength is its consistency. But it should be noted that the DT Cannon (at least, as written here) requires 3-bags to perform 2x TSpins. One way of thinking of it is that you deal 4+7 damage over 21 pieces. This is less damage than 2x perfect clear (Perfect Clear #1 is on the 10th piece, #2 is on the 20th piece typically), TKI, and other openings.

c4w will have placed roughly 21 pieces by the time the TST hits them, potentially setting up over 10 lines of combo (14 if they somehow manage to get a perfectly balanced stack).

Hard to say for sure, but it really does seem like you need to learn those powerful "after DT Cannon" setups to fully take advantage of the DT Cannon opening. There's nothing quite like 10 more lines of damage with the perfect clear setup.

[fumen]v115@vhG2OJhwBkmB/kBDtBCoBAAA[/fumen]

It looks pretty solid on a basic analysis... here are my thoughts on it.

[fumen]v115@vhH2OJhwBkmB/kBDtBCoBlqBAAPUAS1STAS4kcDnoo?2ABG0CE5NuaEOhBtDeR4CeBtBeR4PeAAALgwhIewhIewhg0?Hewhg0Heh0HeilGeglRpHeRpaeAAALgQaIeQaIeQagHReQL?Aeh0FeQaAewhQpFeRaAeQpGeRaaeAAApgQagHglwhFewhBP?QLFeglwhQpgWFeglwhQpgWGeBtaeAAAvhBFsBAAPUAT7STA?S4kcDnoo2AhF0CE5NuaErgBtCewhCeR4BtBewhBeR4EewhR?pEehlwhRpFegli0FeglBeg0JeAAArgBPCeQaCexDBPBeQaA?tAexDEeQpwhwSDeglhWQpAtwSDeglAegWgHxhDehlgWBewh?JeAAA6gglgWglGegWglwhDewwBeAPQawhDewwQ4Aeg0QagH?DegWwwCegHJeAAA6giWGeglgWQaHegWQpIewwIewwJeAAAo?gwhglRpFewhglRpFewhhlGewhneAAAvhBFnBAAPPAU+bTAS?4sdDnoo2AUN2BA2gh0Heg0Ieg0AehlIeglIeglMeAAA[/fumen]

What's wrong with the evil bag? If you use the T for the second TSD before placing the O, there's lots of options.

Hmm, I guess I'm bad at writing.

Technically speaking, I wrote that the "Evil Bag" was "TLIJO", but I demonstrated a Fumen of "TSZLIJO". In "TSZLIJO", you can TSpin Double, place the O, and then prepare for a 3rd TSD on the 3rd bag. You are absolutely correct that its a possibility.

But "TLIJOZS" is a better example of an evil-bag for the initial pattern.

----------------

You know what? I'll edit the post. I guess TLIJOZS is a better example of what I'm going for.

[fumen]m115@zgglIeglIehlAeAtAeR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAe?h0JeAgWWAURVSASYNuEw488Awp78AwKY5DkoBAAvhFlsBAA?PKAlRGDEFbUzBhrBAAqsQaAFLDmClcJSAVDEHBEooRBUoAV?BMeHgCaNBAAJiB+oBTHtoAFLDmClcJSAVztSAVG88A4W88A?ZHsSATD88AwUReDQ0baEroGbE[/fumen]

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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Anyway, this is also another way to start off a TSD chain with your first bag. I don't think it's in that guide but I didn't look through it closely.[/quote]

I appreciate the new opening you just posted, and it instinctively looks like a very solid way to start the match. It would be able to start off with "TJS*" (variation you just showed) or "TLZ*" (if mirrored), which TKI can't do.

And normally, "TJS* / TLZ*" starts would be "Pelican" under Caffine's topic (maybe Petrel?). I think your opening is a bit 'flatter' and might be superior to Pelican, but I'd have to play around with it to know for sure.

Yeah, I don't think I've seen that one before. Thanks! Ultimately though, it needs to be fleshed out to 3x TSDs within the first 3-bags, because 4w starts are very strong. So anything that doesn't start with 3x TSDs is probably going to lose to a strong 4w player.

I'll play around with that formation. Its "flat" enough that I'm almost certain that a 3x TSD is possible and consistent.

A lot of this information is built from this topic: http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4741

In this topic, I hope to focus on TKI, simplify the advice and provide patterns to build TKI faster and more consistently.

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The "big idea" of TKI is to start off a match with 3-TSpin Doubles as consistently as possible. For example, this mainline demonstrates the flexibility of the TKI Opening:

[fumen]v115@zgglIeglIehlAeAtAeR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAe?h0JeAgWWAURVSASYNuEw488Awp78AwKY5DkoBAAvhAlsBzg?Q4IeR4IeQ4CeAtHeBtHeAtOeAAPtAUNC+AFb82Dzoo2Ay4z?CEsW98Aw3baE54CwBFbs2BPmceEB22TASIb0A6AAAA5gwhg?0Hewhi0FewhglRpFewhglRpGehlKeAAA5gQagHglwhFewhB?PQLFeglwhQpgWFeglwhQpgWGeBtKeAAAogwhIewhHegWGeB?tgWGeQpQawSglFeQpQawSglGeBPKeAAAogQaIeQaFewhg0A?eQaFeQLAeg0wwFeQLIeQLWeFqBvhAAAP0AUNaBBFb82Dzoo?2AoCaoDl92TAyE88AQzgeEFbkzDhN98AwsrGEloo2AwieeE?Fc5aE1gQ4IeR4HeglQ4HeglIehlPeAAPLAMoo2AQieeEFcx?CA1gwDCeAtEexDAeBtFewDAeAtheAAPAA2gAtBeAPFeBtBP?EegWAeAtAPFegWRpGegWwhQpOeAAPLAPoo2AQieeEFcxCA2?gAPIeBPRexhHewhwSOeAAPdACA3TAS46SASYEdDUPNXEuoo?2ApN98AQzkaEUBAAApgglDeRpBewhglDeRpQ4AewhhlCeh0?R4whEeg0BeQ4whEeg0XeNlfvhBFlBAAPrAFbEEBU988AQD7?xDFbEwCzI2JEFbEwCyuVDEloo2AP5dNESPRKEJPKDA0gh0H?eg0Ieg0AehlIeglIeglOeAAA[/fumen]

Be sure to practice the "mirrored" version of this as well, for opening bags like "TIJSZ", which force the mirror image.

An "Evil 2nd Bag" to the above sequence is TLIJO.

EDIT: thickBUT had an issue with the original fumen. I think this newer Fumen addresses his concerns.

[fumen]v115@zgglIeglIehlAeAtAeR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAe?h0JeAgWWAURVSASYNuEw488Awp78AwKY5DkoBAAvhFlsBAA?PKAlRGDEFbUzBhrBAAqsQaAFLDmClcJSAVDEHBEooRBUoAV?BMeHgCaNBAAJiB+oBTHtoAFLDmClcJSAVztSAVG88A4W88A?ZHsSATD88AwUReDQ0baEroGbE[/fumen]

This is solved with the following routine (still somewhat unoptimized: Conceptual only):

[fumen]v115@zgglIeglIehlAeAtAeR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAe?h0JeAgWWAURVSASYNuEw488Awp78AwKY5DkoBAAvhRlsBAA?PKAlRGDEFbUzBhrBAAirQaAFLDmClcJSAVDEHBEooRBUoAV?BMeHgCaNBAA5nBWmBTcBMtBFqB/pBZVQaAFLDmClcJSAVDE?HBEooRBJoAVBKnjWCzOBAAOsB7bBctBqcBfjBdlfFlBAAA[/fumen]

I don't think this fumen is optimal yet. But the concept is sound: if you recognize the killer sequence "TLIJO", you need to do "something else". I THINK the above two routines cover all possible 2nd Bags. If a stronger player would double-check my work, that'd be appreciated :-)

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If you get early JL in Bag1, you'll have to do TKI Type2, described by Caffine as "Flat Top".

[fumen]v115@BhilFeAtglR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAeh0JeAgWW?AURVSASYNuEw488AQr78AwKY5DkoBAAvhCtsuAAlsBAAPUA?S1STAS4kcDnoo2AQieeEFc5aEChR4GeR4CeAtHeBtHeAtKe?AAPPAUGurDFbUEDFbs2BPMdCApgwhIewhIewhRpGewhRpgl?Feg0ilFei0QeAAApgQaIeQaBewhFewwRpwhFeglAeQpQaFe?wSwhAeQaFeCPQeAAA9gCPGeQaAewSGeQpAewhGeCtQeAAAp?gwhIewhBeQaFeQahWwwg0EeSawwFewSAeQawwFexSAPQeAA?AvhCtnuAAlnBAAPHACSZTASIrAAygAtHeBtHeAtg0Ieg0He?h0TeAAAygAPHeBPEeR4AeAPEeR4heAAA[/fumen]

Here's Type2 2nd Bag L Pattern:

[fumen]v115@BhilFeAtglR4Beg0RpBtR4Ceg0RpAtzhAeh0JeAgWW?AURVSASYNuEw488AQr78AwKY5DkoBAAvhBtsuAAlsBzgQ4I?eR4CeRpwhBeglQ4CeRpwhAeAtglFewhBthlEewhAtKeAAPX?AS1STAS4kcDnoo2AMoo2AQieeEFcxCA[/fumen]

There are some other openings that Caffine covers in his topic. But these are the ones I'm personally familiar with at the moment. Questions / comments? And if any stronger player is out there: any optimizations you can think of?

[finally]

However, I believe that the game of Puyo can evolve with hard drops and no piece delays and that the future of ppt can become very interesting once that happens (maybe ppt2).

Just an FYI: but PuyoPuyo's community has been active since the 90s. PuyoPuyo's original rules were some... crap, but Puyo Puyo 2's release in 1994 created a thriving arcade scene in Japan and the community has been refining strategies ever since. Puyo Puyo Tsu (the ruleset implemented in PPT) is OLDER than Tetris Multiplayer Guidelines (which as far as I know, have only been in place since 2001).

Here's a video from 1997 PuyoPuyo grand finals for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbf-Z2IgnVY

In any case, PuyoPuyo and Tetris have very old, proud communities of their games. Furthermore, because of this pride, its very unlikely for the core games to change very much. True, there are some minor changes (PuyoPuyo Sun rules), but major changes don't seem to stick very long (ie: Fever mode).

Tetris also has diverged from Guideline rules, with square-mode for example. But Guidelines is THE Tetris standard just as PuyoPuyo Tsu is the Puyo standard.

Case in point: the slightly faster drop speed in the balance patch has upset some Puyo players. The original, slower drop speed, of PPT was closer to the original Tsu rules which is considered canonical in the community.

--------------------------

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. I just want to make sure that you understand that PuyoPuyo's community is old as far as gaming goes. Its one of the oldest competitive video gaming communities still in existence.

I do realize that Tetris is also an old game, but that's really what makes PPT such a good game in my eyes. Its finally the crossover game where two exceptionally old communities can join together and play together. And yes, it feels like one side is playing American Football while the other side is playing Golf... but that's part of the joy IMO. For the most part, Puyo players are in fact playing Puyo, while Tetris players do in fact feel like they're playing Tetris. There are issues translating the damage but I respect the effort the devs have put into this game.

A game like PuyoPuyoTetris will probably never happen again, so we should enjoy this temporary bridge between our communities.

[all]

PPT Garbage is very similar (maybe identical!) to Guidelines Tetris, as far as I can tell. B2B Tetris / TSpins have a high chance of sending 5-lined up garbage, while Doubles almost always (~90% of the time) "switch holes" per garbage sent. The 10-garbage from a Perfect-clears is all lined up, more often than not.

So in the general sense: "messy" garbage from doubles, triples, and low-combos are harder to clear than the "clean" garbage sent by B2B TSpins and Tetrises. At least on a line-per-line basis.

PPT definitely has "Change on Attack". Series of Doubles / Triples / low combos leads to "messier" garbage than big hits from B2B Tetris, Perfect Clears, or TSpins

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More often than not, a "Perfect Clear" in PPT leads to 10 lined-up garbage. There's a chance that the stack is "messy" (ie: 2 or 3 hole-changes in the stack), but its more often than not all lined up.

[slightly]

Regarding the lack of screen watching: I think this section demonstrates a lack of understanding of the decisions that go into timing attacks and choosing attacks in tetris. The decision of whether to send a lot of clean garbage, or a little bit of messy garbage is extremely important. When you say that it's very easy to get through all your garbage as a tetris player, this is only the case when the opponent doesn't think about the attacks that he's sending. I have a youtube channel where I try and talk about my thought process while I'm playing tetris, and if you watch any of those videos (channel name: wawi tetris), you'll find that I'm almost constantly watching my opponent, and based on their field, I make a very deliberate choice on what kind of garbage I'm sending and whether or not I need to worry about getting to the bottom of the field.  I think you'll find that the better you get at tetris, the more important this kind of thing becomes because the best players can send an entire field's worth of lines in like 5-10 seconds, so you need to understand when that potential is there and act accordingly.

I'm not the original poster, and I'm also far weaker than most people are here in Tetris. I'm also much weaker than Steelix100 in Puyo, but I probably can beat most of you non-Puyo Players in Puyo 1v1. :-)

I think Steelix100 is exaggerating a bit about the lack of screen watchability in Tetris. I think we all can agree that a player "near the top" needs to use Tetrises and TSpins defensively: that is in reaction to the opponent's Tetrises and TSpins, to maximize survivability. While a player "near the bottom" would rather not trade blows, but rather would "tank" the hit and then counter-hit instead.

But the level of screenwatching in Tetris is way less than in PuyoPuyo. In Puyo, the attack animation is slow on purpose, to give the player time to calculate a response. It can take 5+ seconds for a high-power attack to go off, or maybe 1ish seconds in the case of a really quick Hellfire. There are plenty of examples where one player has say a 12+ Puyo chain prepared, but is then instantly-KO'd by a 2-chain Hellfire or a 1-chain "Thorn".

Its not only important to outchain the opponent in Puyo: you need to out-chain them WHILE keeping tabs on their harassment: and either build counter-chains to absorb the damage, or build counter-harassments of your own. Because of how much space a 12+ chain takes up in Puyo, you have a huge amount of risk and can instantly be KO'd by even the smallest hits when you go that big.

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In many ways, Puyo is as interactive as a fighting game, chess, or sports like Basketball. A huge part of the game is watching the opponent and reacting, and the Puyo community proves this with the rich vocabulary of screenwatching terms that are thrown around.

* Main Chain: The big 6+ Chain from the opponent. The main chain can be as big as 14 from expert players, but during a "footsies" match with both players feeling each other out, players typically only have a ~6 Chain prepared as their main-chain at any given time.

* Provoke: When you manage to psych out the opponent and they commit to setting off their main chain. Because the main-chain can take 5 to 10 seconds to resolve, the "provoked" player has a disadvantage (their controls are completely locked out while the attack is resolving). The "provoking" player uses these additional 5 to 10 seconds to build a larger chain and win.

* Cut: When you pretend you are provoked, but instead of setting off your entire chain, you set it off in a way that it only is a Chain3 or Chain4. Instead of taking the full 5 to 10 seconds to resolve, it only takes 2 seconds or so, giving the opponent way less time to react than they thought they would of had.

* Hellfire: Building for a power chain that resolves quicker than usual, especially a 2-chain. You aren't going to KO the opponent, but you put them in a hard spot where additional harassments may kill them.

* Thorn: Even faster than a Chain2 is a Chain1. Even just 6 to 8 Puyo at the wrong time can "block" the opponent long enough

* Counter: Ambiguous word, but often is used to refer to a tall-trigger which is well protected from Thorns and Hellfires. Chaining long is the correct answer when you see a counter formation.

Without a doubt, there are no equivalent terms or vocabulary in the Tetris community. Because compared to Puyo, there really isn't as much value in Screen Watching. In Puyo, screen watching is life-or-death and incredibly important.

In Puyo, if you hear that "attack animation" starting, you NEED to react correctly. If its the "Main Chain", you need to quickly evaluate the chain-length, build slightly bigger, and then set it off. If its a "Hellfire" or a "Thorn", you really needed to figure that out before the animation started and have a Hellfire or Thorn prepared yourself. Or if you think the opponent's Hellfire took too many resources, you might just accept the provoke and set off your main chain. Literally life or death. That's why the attack animation is so slow in Puyo, to give the players the appropriate amount of time to read and plan the proper reaction.

Tetris attacks are instantaneous in contrast, because that's simply not an aspect of the game that's important.

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That's not a bad thing however. There are plenty of well-respected games which are less interactive. Dominion, Golf, Bowling, Darts, Archery, Target Shooting, Skeet, Ice Skating, Gymnastics and more are all well respected games with little to no interaction. (and I'd argue that Tetris has more interaction than all  of these games).

The primary skill in Tetris is to get more Attack per second + Garbage clears per second than the opponent. The moment that (Your Attacks - Their Garbage Clears) == 22 or so, you win because the opponent topped out. That's just the nature of Tetris. That doesn't make it a bad game however, unless you'd consider Golf / Bowling / Darts / Arrchery / Skeet / Ice Skating / Gymnastics / Dominion (Card Game) to all be bad games.

My current goal is to reach 1-minute 40-line sprints. (Slow compared to most people around here, but one step at a time...)

A 1-minute 40-line sprint is roughly 100-pieces per minute. Therefore, if I drop at this rate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GFTNEbu2FU, I should be able to get close to 1-minute sprint times.

For all those people going for 30-seconds, that'd be a 200-piece per minute rhythm, which sounds like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgk8AfY1u40

And to reach 20-seconds, you need 300-bpm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwoBEcYzCPA

Just to link that one video that went a little viral:

3-mins Ultra (7 x BT -> TD -> PC)

It's sped up by 50% (still much faster than I can play) but the consistency with how he can loop the setup is purely amazing. Infinite TST is way more effective on Ultra though. Not sure if this setup is that good for multiplayer either.

Its an opening threat, but if the opponent hasn't been KO'd by the first perfect clear, they would have sent garbage to you before the 2nd perfect clear. Case in point: A "4-wide" player only needs to send 1-line of garbage (or any odd-number really) to permanently make perfect clears impossible.

With some careful garbage timing, you probably can make it to the first perfect clear without taking a hit. TSD / TST / TST / TSD offers a lot of "protection". You just gotta sync your TSD with the opponent's TSD and/or Tetris. But if the opponent goes TKI or something quicker, you probably are going to take damage and therefore be unable to perform even the first perfect clear.

It still a TSD / TST / TST / TSD loop, but any good multiplayer game requires downstacking into garbage. A "Garbage tetris" is not only 4-damage sent to the opponent, but it also cancels out 4-lines for an effective differential of 8-differential between the two players.

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EDIT: As an opening: its 4 TSpins in 5-bags. That's quite good, especially given its reliability. Even without the perfect clear, it seems like a solid start to a match. I have a feeling that maybe center 4w performs well against the opening, because the first TSpins are about as slow as a DT Cannon (11-damage by the 3rd bag). The perfect clear likely comes too late, and the 4w player would be executing their combo by then.

TKI and other quicker TSD give a little bit more damage in the early game (14-damage in 3 bags), although bag 4 and 5 are weaker.

I was watching some PPT play, and the Tetris player did the following. I don't think I've ever seen this before.

[fumen]v115@vhY1QYpAFLDmClcJSAVDEHBEooRBMoAVB0HMMCvfLu?CKuKWCUX9wCqXstCpAAAAUtBvoBxuBTkByqBmfB3cBugB5Z?BTVBaZBcWBzLBZNBFnB9sBOkBUjB/gBpZBqrBAAAucQQADN?N5Duoo2Am3MDEvTBREAAA[/fumen]

The double-triples on the wiki are:

http://harddrop.com/wiki/Double_Triple_Cannon_Setups
http://harddrop.com/wiki/Double_Triple_Cannon_2_(DT2)

I can't say I know all of the forms on the wiki, but neither of these describe this particular method.

Here's the "still frame" before the Double

hmmm I would say 60 lpm ..(is considered good) in nullpo ..however in TF 45-50 lpm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovWGgLFpnCI

Seems like the top players in Puyo-Puyo Tetris get around 60lpm (45 seconds and below to complete the 40-line sprint).

PPT is pretty slow with long line clear delays. Faster games (Nullpomino and Tetris Friends) should have slightly faster LPMs.

I average around 10-11LPM. I am pretty sure this is godawful. What should I be aiming for? Like, in Nullpomino's default Line Race setting, I scored 10.5 LPM, over 40 lines, with 113 pieces, over the course of 3:43. I am well aware of how terrible this is--which is why I am asking what I should be shooting for.

Maybe 80 LPM?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSEz166BNFk

Chopin's Twist Guide

Thank you very much! That's exactly the concept at least.

Linked to that video was a Chinese explanation (thankfully with English Subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdYri9Kx6Zs

I found that this specific video was better than Chopin's guide. Explicitly noting the "L -> 2" state change (for Z) and "R -> 2" state change (for S) just made more sense to me personally.

I messed up. Wrong topic, sorry guys. But now that I've posted... I might as well edit a proper response?

I'd argue that 4-wide (in the corner / not-centered) will always be faster than center- 4-wide. Because center-4 wide is just harder because of the split between left and right. Keeping all of your pieces together is a flatter stacking surface.

But I dunno much yet. In Puyo Tetris, the line-clear animation is long enough that I don't think center-4 wide is necessarily the best strategy. Combo is slowed down in that game because of all of the line-clear animations. So this isn't really an issue I come up against too much.

[fumen]v115@neF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeH8BeG8MevNJvhBsnQWA?zI2JEFbEmDhUJ5D0oA6AFreRAyZAAAAAPpAjLUQEO1XRASo?EeEFbEmDJHpTAyi1TASI7QEJG98AQLOyDIfxvAOAAAA[/fumen]

Hey everybody. I've got T-Spins down, but I can't get Z-spins or S-spins with any consistency. A good application of the Z-spin or S-spin is the above situation in 4-column ren, if the next few blocks are "rich" in Z or S blocks, this methodology would allow me to continue the Ren.

I feel like without this spin, my Ren / Combos are too inconsistent. So can anybody help me with a tutorial? Each time I "google" for S-spin or Z-spin, I come up with a T-Spin tutorial instead :-(

[fumen]v115@neF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeH8BeG8MevNJvhBksQlA?In9TASoEeEzoo2AzA2QEvN9nDFbEcEvoo2Ai488AQWDKEFB?AAAAAA[/fumen]