best center 4 wide defense

[Okey_Dokey]

The current tourney held is Tetris Online Tournament IV on Tetris Friends and Squirtle, known for his center 4-wide, managed to beat Blink in a match first to 15 (a part of the match was recorded on Twitch). Blink tried to start the matches with T-Spin Doubles and Tetrises and it didn't work that well. Squirtle was able to stack at least 10 or 11 lines of 4-wide before receiving 9 lines of clean garbage. So he often did at least a 10 combo and could also often make 2 Tetrises out of the garbage he received. This together was often enough to top out Blink with the 4-wide opener. I saw aitu_k and hahaha1744 beating chrisw (another 4-wider) very high with T-Spin Doubles in TTO2 and TTO3, but in this case Blink's strategy obviously backfired. IIRC aitsu and hahaha timed their attacks better though.

An opener missing in the poll is Mr. T-Spin's STD. It's a T-Spin Single followed by a T-Spin Triple and a T-Spin Double. The advantage is that the first garbage hole switches after 2 lines, so it can't be sent back with a Tetris. Also, in Tetris Online Poland a T-Spin Single into a T-Spin Triple sends one more line than 2 T-Spin Doubles.

If you switch the left side with the right side, then Mr. T-Spin's STD looks like this:

[fumen]m115@vgwhDeglDewhDeglDewhDehlBeg0whAeQ4AeBtCeg0?RpR4AeBtAeh0RpAeQ4JeAgHvhBlqBAAAcgg0Ieg0Heh0EeB?8EewhAeD8BehlwhAeD8CeglwhBeB8DeglwhSeAAA2gAPQaG?eBPRaFeAPRLQaGeRLYeAAA2gQaAPGeQpQaAPwSFeQpAtwhw?SGeAtwhYeAAA2gxhGeAPAewhGeBPRpHeQpYeAAA2gRpGeBt?RaFexhBPGexSYeAAAvhBtnBAAARhC8BeA8XeFtBvhAAAA[/fumen]

The only disadvantage of Mr T-Spin's STD is that it can't be stacked for most first bags. On the bright side, the stack always looks the same after two bags and the setup can always be completed within 3 bags.

There's also Pokemino's STD. It can be stacked for almost every first bag. However, the T-Spin Triple can never be made at the end of the second bag. So, under circumstances it can take 4 bags to complete the setup.

[fumen]m115@4gAtDewhCeBtDewhglBeAtg0BeQ4AewhglCeg0RpR4?whhlAeh0RpAeQ4JeAgHvhBlqBAAAsgg0AeAtB8BeQ4Beg0B?twhCeR4h0AtAewhAehlAeQ4RpBewhBeglBeRpBewhBeglTe?AAAvhBtnBAAAShB8aeFtBvhAAAA[/fumen]

Both setups look very similar. If you get an early L or J piece, then just put it in the middle - if Mr T-Spin's STD fails, then you can at least go for Pokemino's STD.

[Antifate]

STDs are bad!

In all seriousness though, I like STD openings in general and they are certainly fun and efficient (though the rare DTDs are better), but they're actually bad for 4w. I don't know why the wiki says they are good.

The general ways to defend against a 4w are
A) spike your opponent (fast attacks - DT)
B) do something equally efficient (your own combo)

The STD is not useful because it's not spiky. While it is true that it is piece efficient, it isn't spiky.

In the ever consistent DT, there is a noticeable 2-piece interval in which you generate 11 (or 12 in some versions of tetris) lines of garbage. This spike is the reason that set ups like DT are the best way to attack a 4w. In less than a second, a combo-er will receive more than half their field's worth of garbage. This fast spike is useful for catching players off guard. One thing that I've seen and experienced is misdropping due to the walls of the well rising extremely quickly.

Alternatively, in those STD set ups, the tempo of the attack is much lower, as you need to place a lot of intervening pieces between the TSS, TST, and TSD. You need to set up the TSS, clear it, set up the TST, clear it, set up the TSD, and clear it. Someone can easily react to this slower, consistent garbage. This is not much of an improvement over staple techniques like TKI.

Since DT makes the shape for the TSD and TST simultaneously, it has a lot more spiky potential than STD setups that set up t-spins consecutively. STD is more efficient, but if you're looking for efficiency, you should combo yourself (see option B instead of option A).

[jkwon23]

Best counter against a center 4 wide is a center 4 wide.
2nd best counter against a center 4 wide is fast non-piece-consecutive b2b t spins (e.g. TKI) or b2b perfect clears.
(For TF, generally 2nd best method is the former, the 3rd best method is the latter because opponent can lag and misdrop from receiving lines constantly: receive lines constantly -> lag/confusion -> misdrop)

Stacking big piece-consecutive triple-double setups like Mr T Spin's STD and pokemino's STD is a no-no against a great c4wider because bigger setups = more time for c4wider to set up a long combo chain.

Side 4 wide is not an effective strategy because (1) opponent can send perfect clears, e.g. initial 4 wide setup with z/s prop -> perfect clear -> if player has good knowledge of perfect clears, then b2b perfect clear (2) c4w has greater chance of having a higher stack AKA it's safer to stack a c4w than a side 4w because very piece spawns inside the center 4w space: higher stack = higher combo potential!

c3w:
A good c4w is much better than a good center 3w if both players have same pps because (1) perfect clear limits 3w stack, and % chance of 3w initial 4-height stack is anti-pc, (2) good 4w is much stronger than a good 3w: 4w > 3w, if combo is initiated at the same height.

----
c3w = center 3 wide
c4w = center 4 wide
b2b = back to back
pps = piece per second (dropped)

[poopmo]

^^ jkwon is right.

[jackh1771]

DT cannon takes too long.
I can test your 4 wide counters message me in the discord chat or skype jackh1771.

I think that you just need to send 8-10 lines in 5-7 seconds to counter a 4 wide. (TKI or b2b tetris tspin in some sort)
Don't waste a t in your stack unless you are forced to. Spin those first 2... And don't 4 wide the 4 wider unless you are god enough to keep up.

And nothing is as efficient as a 4w combo. Your goal should be to limit how high it is stacked, not try to be as efficient as me in a 20 second game in total, if you dont send enough lines in 10 seconds I don't care what you do the next 10, 40+ lines are coming... (Rules out Mr. Tspin, DT, C-spin) imo.

Even if you are as efficient as possible with those first two tspins, the four wide is still mega OP. I have a good chance to include that garbage in my combo or send it as a spike following the combo. (Not always deadly if the combo is held to 7-9, but I can be in a position to win)

If I were countering a 4 wide, I would send 2 tspins, then stack the third with a 2/3 wide over it. start your tspin+ mini combo when their 4w starts. you will need to block(or send while they downstack) the annoying garbage and the first thing you accept should be a line clear that you need to be able to access within the next 2 pieces to block with. Watch Johnny vs me he took most of the games past my opener to the mid-game.
4W is OP but if either person misdrops its death. don't mess up- it's all about the first 2 bags of the game.
Way easier said that done... if the first bag is szo or tsz I am really confident i can win vs anybody I play on tf.

And [double] PC works but you can't rely on that i think. I love when a pc comes at me when I'm 6-8 lines high. it's ideal to send messy garbage in the 8 combo while they have nothing to block with, then send back the pc ammo into strong b2bs.(Actually ideal if they can't/fail PC and i stack a 15 combo before I start it)
-Squirtle

[Antifate]

I'm not sure what jkwon is talking about with respect to "non-piece-consecutive" b2bs. If that phrase is taken literally, these are inferior to piece-consecutive b2b setups. But I digress...

I think everyone knows that 4w is a dominant strategy and the only way to come out even is to 4w yourself.

At the same time, a lot of people have a problem with this and are unlikely to apply 4w back.

Firstly, 4w seems to be against the "core gameplay of Tetris". 4w that is really only consistently applicable in the beginning of games. Unless your games end in the opener, the vast majority of Tetris games will involve much more T-spinning, down stacking, mini-setups, etc. than 4w. Unless you practice on 4w, the vast majority of your time spent playing Tetris will not involve executing 4w.

Building off of this, when you think Tetris, you don't think 4w. The strengths of 4w come from things that are not really naturally understandable. For example, in TF, 4w is such a strong strategy due to the slow pace of the game, high combo table, ability to spin and kick pieces, spawn position of the blocks, and maintenance of "above field" blocks. In multiplayer games that don't share garbage, 4w is even more powerful because you can almost always build a max combo. I would argue that while these are common in "competitive" Tetris clients, they are not "core gameplay" elements. For example, you could tinker around with a bunch of peripheral settings and easily maintain T-spinning and Tetrises' strengths while making combos a non-competitive opening strategy.

As a result, I think a lot of people kind of have an unhealthy attitude about comboing. Firstly, since it's not really applicable midgame, it is something that can't naturally be practiced. You have to practice 4w on your own, which feels weird and almost sinister given the niche and competitively specialized nature of the strategy.  Secondly, 4w strikes so early that, if it closes out the game, opponents don't really get a chance to play. This causes a bunch of negative emotions. People feel like they were cheated, as they didn't get to see any other aspects of their opponents' play. Comboers feel bad because the Tetris community is insanely small and people don't want to play against 4w. Most people don't even stick around if you win "normally". Third, 4w is intensely controlled and non-interactive. 4w can legitimately end games without ever touching garbage - making the game essentially one-player, which feels bad. Lastly, there is the ultimate frustration of "If I play normally, I will lose."

Ultimately, I feel like a lot of the tension around 4w comes from some weird thoughts. Appreciating Tetris should involve appreciating the uniqueness of the starting position and the unique opportunities it offers. I feel like a lot of people just want Tetris to all be midgame, because that is what they are most comfortable with.

I'd much rather people see 4w as more of a Tennis serve --as a type of skillfully distinct start to a point-- rather than a cheesy strategy.

[Okey_Dokey]

...
-Squirtle

Whoa, a 4-wider sharing information regarding 4-wide countermeasures. /thread

[jackh1771]

Whoa, a 4-wider sharing information regarding 4-wide countermeasures. /thread

:)
The thing is Blink and Wimos and Johnny knew the things I talked about and its just a matter of executing... The counter to 4w is quick basic tspins, doesnt mean you will execute those as consistently and quickly as I do my 4w.

Just know that 8-10 lines sent in 5-6 seconds will stop a deadly 4w.

Anything I can do to help the tetris community <3

[caffeine]

I'd much rather people see 4w as more of a Tennis serve --as a type of skillfully distinct start to a point-- rather than a cheesy strategy.

I would agree that 4w does not qualify as cheese. It's like cheese in that it's done early and can end games quickly. However, with cheese, if you detect it early and shut it down, the cheeser will almost certainly lose. This is why 4w is different. Knowing your opponent is going to 4w will not allow you to easily defeat him. And by the looks of things, your only hope is to return the 4w or already be so much better than your opponent that it won't matter if they 4w or not.

So I think you're right that "Tennis serve" is a better analogy. I do not think people should harbor ill-feelings against those who use 4w. And yet, you listed a lot of reasons for why it is toxic to the game. And I agree with those reasons. Basically, I think those who are responsible for the guideline need to change the rules that enable it.

[Okey_Dokey]

From a viewer's standpoint, 4-wide can spice things up. If both players get to the midgame, then one player is usually high in the matrix. So, 4-wide games have a higher tendency to end with "winners" instead of "unforced errors" (misdrops).

[dragontamer]

I messed up. Wrong topic, sorry guys. But now that I've posted... I might as well edit a proper response?

I'd argue that 4-wide (in the corner / not-centered) will always be faster than center- 4-wide. Because center-4 wide is just harder because of the split between left and right. Keeping all of your pieces together is a flatter stacking surface.

But I dunno much yet. In Puyo Tetris, the line-clear animation is long enough that I don't think center-4 wide is necessarily the best strategy. Combo is slowed down in that game because of all of the line-clear animations. So this isn't really an issue I come up against too much.

[Okey_Dokey]

This post is not about center 4-wide defense, it's about different kinds of 4-wides.

hm_39 is a fast Japanese player who can also 4-wide. He missed the playoffs in TTO4 and as far as I remember he would have performed better, if he didn't try to 4-wide back then. However, he managed to reach playoffs in TT05 and he also did win a match against Yuimetal in a Japanese S-class tournament (he lost to ajanba, megurokki and aitsu_k though).

Anyway, hm_39 does not only use 4-wide with 3 residuals (3 filled cells in the center 6-columns). He also opts for 6 residuals from time to time. In the execution, it's relatively similar to 3 residuals: you have 3 filled cells in the bottom row which you don't touch until the very end of the 4-wide. I think 6 residuals is a little worse for reaching a high combo (you can't upstack as high before receiving garbage) but it may pay off in downstacking speed. Interestingly, hm_39 goes for 6 residuals, even when he has to softdrop a piece in the first bag.

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edit: takuya8 is yet another very skilled Japanese player ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdHQvIDYcpA]TTO5 match against MicroBlizz). Sometimes, he stacks 4-wide with the usual 3 residuals - he uses an unusual setup though.

[!--ImageUrlBegin--][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"500\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/FKIBVU6.png\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]

Just thought it would be interesting to mention. However, I remember ajanba saying after the [a href=\\\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDTDAxwz2Sc]TF Comeback tourney final that Squirtle / Wumbo was a better 4-wider than any Japanese player (thus including hm_39 and Kasamabin).

And maybe we could also talk about Puyo Puyo Tetris here. Puyo Puyo Tetris has no garbage blocking (combos not delaying incoming garbage) which makes defense against center 4-wide harder (but defense against side-stacked 4-wide easier). Majorly because the 4-wider can absorb garbage during the 4-wide which the 4-wider would have to cancel otherwise (thus more offense; maybe even use those lines in the combo if lucky). Puyo Puyo Tetris uses the Tetris Online Japan / Poland combo table which is stronger than Tetris Friends; however, Puyo Puyo Tetris has also pretty long line clear delay which hurts single line clears).

PS: If you ask me, the problem with 4-wide doesn't lie in the combo table (depending on line clear delay) or lack of garbage blocking (actually, I prefer no garbage blocking). I think you have to blame the randomizer (7-bag allows certain ways to stack the first 2 bags to prepare a center 4-wide) and the invisible buffer zone (filled cells can be pushed over the top as long as a spawning piece doesn't collide with them; you can literally accept / tank 15 lines of garbage and continue as if nothing happened).

[XaeL]

that Squirtle / Wumbo was a better 4-wider than any Japanese player (thus those 2 included).

I thought Squirtle was Wumbo (you wrote "thus those 2 included")

[Okey_Dokey]

Anyway, hm_39 does not only use 4-wide with 3 residuals (3 filled cells in the center 6-columns). He also opts for 6 residuals from time to time.

I should have mentioned that ajanba prefers 6 residuals, too, if he goes for 4 wide. For example he did so against megurokki in S-class tournament and also a little in TTO5. The difference is that ajanba just stacks 2 residuals in the beginning and drops an additional piece in the center columns just before starting to combo. This has several advantages: For one, it allows to stack a little higher before being pushed to the top by the incoming garbage, and secondly, it offers more options to start the 4-wide when being pushed to the top (usually you are forced to start the combo with the first piece after being sent to the top, here it's the second piece).

[!--ImageUrlBegin--][a href=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/E5igREO.jpg\\\" target=\\\"_new\\\"][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"500\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/E5igREO.jpg\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]

It's better if the hole in the bottom 4-wide line is in one of the center 2 columns. Sometimes, ajanba starts with a T-Spin Double before 4-widing ( as shown in the playfields 2 to 4 below). In this case the T-Spin Double is used to cancel the garbage of the opponenent's first T-Spin Double. The reason for that is that it forces the opponent to make 3 T-Spins quickly (resp. 2 T-Spins + 1 Tetris) - not everybody knows how to start a game with 3 T-Spin Doubles (usually, T-Spin openers only guarantee the first 2 T-Spins).

[!--ImageUrlBegin--][a href=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/dF3PJYS.jpg\\\" target=\\\"_new\\\"][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"500\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/dF3PJYS.jpg\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]

[Okey_Dokey]

Sometimes, ajanba starts with a T-Spin Double before 4-widing ( as shown in the playfields 2 to 4 below). In this case the T-Spin Double is used to cancel the garbage of the opponenent's first T-Spin Double. The reason for that is that it forces the opponent to make 3 T-Spins quickly (resp. 2 T-Spins + 1 Tetris) - not everybody knows how to start a game with 3 T-Spin Doubles (usually, T-Spin openers only guarantee the first 2 T-Spins).

[!--ImageUrlBegin--][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"500\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"https://i.imgur.com/dF3PJYS.jpg\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]

In Puyo Puyo Tetris you can also use this strategy to prevent your opponent from doing a Perfect Clear. This shouldn't work in Tetris Friends though (combos delay incoming garbage and there's some time between sending lines and the opponent receiving them). For Puyo Puyo Tetris, have a look at the match [a href=\\\"https://youtu.be/2-hSY1EvC80]nnoihs0215 vs sakana897[/url]. sakana must have spent much time learning his weird PC technique but it's just useless (in PPT). nnoihs0215 cancels out most of sakana's PCs (a few times he got sent Tetris garbage below his setup, so he still got a PC). Those PCs also proved to be ineffective against Wumbo / Squirtle (who didn't use any tricks).

Anyway, here are the setups nnoihs0215 was using to get a T-Spin Single or T-Spin Double before the 4 wide. Most times, nnoihs0215 used side-stacked 4 wide (with 3 residuals) after starting with a TKI 3 variation. He also used MKO Stacking, Hummingbird / Subscriber Special and ajanba-style TKI.

[fumen]v115@Ahi0DeglBeBtg0Q4CeglCeBtR4RphlAezhQ4RpJeAg?HvhBFqBAAAFgF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8FeD8G?eC8JeAAAFgFADeFADeFADeFADeFAAeQ4BeFAS4AeBAAPBAw?DS4AeAABPBAwDg0Q4AehHgWgHRLwDAth0APgWAPSLwDJeAA?A0gwDwwHehWIegWkeAAAvhBlqBAAABgC8DeF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeF8DeE8EeC8GeB8HeB8KeAAABgCADeFADeFADeFA?DeFADeFADeFADegWBAgHAAQLBtAeQ4iWSLAeBtQpQaQLglS?LxhxSQaQLglJeAAAvhBFqBAAABgC8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeF8DeF8EeB8AeB8QeAAABgCADeFADeFADeFADeFA?DeFADeAAgHCAAPDewDgHBABPDewDhHgWAPAABeR4SLAthWA?PQpQ4wDQLxSJeAAAvhBlqBAAABgC8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeA8AeC8GeB8ceAAABgCADeFADeFADeFADeFADeBA?wDCADeBAwDCAAeQ4BeAAgWwDBAAPAeR4AewwAtwDAPAeAPB?eQ4glwwxhgHhWSLglwwLeAAAvhBlqBAAAFgF8DeF8DeF8De?F8DeF8DeE8EeE8FeD8GeA8WeAAAFgFADeFADeFADeFADeEA?wDDeEAEeRLCAEeAPQLBAgHAeBtBewDAeQaBewwCeQLxwAeA?PQaQpJeAAPNAMoo2ABq2rDyoo2A0AAAAvhBlqBAAPAAFgF8?DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeE8EeE8GeC8GeB8VeAAeFgFADeFADe?FADeFADeFADeEAQaQ4CeEAQaR4BexhAAhHwhg0Q4BewSwhA?PgHwhglg0hlQLhHRawhwSJeAAAvhBlqBAAABgF8DeF8DeF8?DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8EeE8FeB8PeAAA[/fumen]

If you start with a J piece, you can also do this T-Spin Single (also note the opportunity for Trinity or T-Spin Triple tower, if your opponent does something unexpected).

[fumen]v115@ChhlBewhFeglQ4AewhRpBtAeg0glR4whRpAeBti0Q4?whJeAgHvhBNmBAAAFgF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8DeF8GeB?8IeA8UeAAA[/fumen]