Is Hard Drop's Community "Elitist"? What can be done differently?

[Paul676]

lol but instead of calling it 'elitist' you'd call it 'Advanced' or 'Tetris Theory'?

Where would the threads which are tetris theory but during the course of the thread people explain stuff? It's not a guide per se but it is very helpful for even the beginner.

[Paradox]

I think the way the forums is organized is not user friendly. Good threads that answer questions disappears among the other threads and hardcore Tetris discussion threads ends up in between threads with questions from new players.
I think the forums should be re organised to something like this
[!--ImageUrlBegin--][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"400\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"http://i.imgur.com/hYJPccM.png\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]


[a href=\\\"http://i.imgur.com/hYJPccM.png]http://i.imgur.com/hYJPccM.png[/size]

That would put all the elitism in one place while everything else could be new player friendly.

I feel like adding more sections to the forum isn't the right answer. Also elitist as a section name seems kind of weird as its not a pleasant thing to be called. I think the sections we have now on the forum are already great and would already allow for our help center.

Under strategy/help it currently has a link to the Wiki and guides, we could add a link there for the help center.

Another way to promote it would be to put a picture on the main page or a link near the shoutbox. That way if anyone new comes on and they want to ask something on the shoutbox, they will see the help center.
for example

"Do you have a tetris related question? Visit the Help Center"

[myndzi]

The game itself isn't "elitist" -- games don't have viewpoints. You are conflating the fact that (most modern incarnations of) the game have a depth of skill that leads to a kind of extreme stratification with an attitude displayed by players who are more interested in being "better than" people than helping those people get better.

Removing all the things that make multiplayer Tetris rich and interesting is most certainly not a solution. "Elitism" is a mentality, it is conveyed by the behavior of people. It needs to be apparent that that mentality is not acceptable. This requires everybody's help and participation. It requires that the forums are a place where people are shunned for posting that way, rather than feeling secure that they're in the clear. In aggregate, people should feel uncomfortable posting comments of that nature and the expectation should be that such posts will be removed or the poster warned or punished. (If warning, it should be public and direct; this ensures that the behavior when seen by a user reading the thread is known to be incorrect and that active moderation against such content exists)

I did what I could to try and push things in this direction, but the aggregate community support wasn't there, and so I inevitably could not succeed. You don't need me (or any admin) to do it though, you just need to speak out against bad attitudes and make it clear that there is no recourse. As long as any user can get away with posting snobby elitist comments and feel like they have some kind of defensible position, they will continue to do so. (Fallback of the weak: I can say what I want/I am entitled to my opinion/freedom of speech etc. -- No, you can say what you're allowed to get away with by moderation and the community. If they allow you to bring the level of conduct down then it's not only you that is contributing to the problem, but everybody who read the post and didn't speak against it too.)

[ohitsstef]

I feel like adding more sections to the forum isn't the right answer. Also elitist as a section name seems kind of weird as its not a pleasant thing to be called. I think the sections we have now on the forum are already great and would already allow for our help center.

Under strategy/help it currently has a link to the Wiki and guides, we could add a link there for the help center.

Another way to promote it would be to put a picture on the main page or a link near the shoutbox. That way if anyone new comes on and they want to ask something on the shoutbox, they will see the help center.
for example

"Do you have a tetris related question? Visit the Help Center"

I think adding that would help a lot of newer members.  
And I agree, adding in more sections to the forum isn't the right answer, if anything it makes it less user friendly. The way the forum is set up is straight forward already, but maybe newer people don't want to dig through the threads to find their answer.. hell I wouldn't want to dig through all of the threads we have myself. ~_~

[Integration]

Removing all the things that make multiplayer Tetris rich and interesting is most certainly not a solution. "Elitism" is a mentality, it is conveyed by the behavior of people. It needs to be apparent that that mentality is not acceptable.

I don't want to remove the depth of Tetris. Tetris can have depth with 1 preview only, provided garbage is relatively messy. Tetris is most interesting when it is random, because matches are closer under those circumstances.

Bag randomizer, hold and 2 minute games makes the outcome very predictable. It might be that you lose 0 - 10 although every match took 1 minute or longer. This strengthen the attitude of people thinking they are far better, although the difference is much smaller than they think.

What you forget about all those "evil behaviour must be punished" attitude. Ignorance can't be punished. Let's say you make your first post but you are ignored because nobody knows you. Or you ask something on the shout box, but people continue chatting with each other instead of answering your question. In my opinion ignorance is a bigger problem of HardDrop.

I did what I could to try and push things in this direction, but the aggregate community support wasn't there, and so I inevitably could not succeed.

Sorry to say so but you achieved the opposite of what you wanted. Good people got banned (e.g. perfectclear) or left the community, because you ruled as an autocrat (without getting the explicit legitimization by Blink btw) and treated people as children. On the other hand, troublemakers like Xeal or Paradox kept their behaviour. Paradox was even rewarded with a "pretty nice guy" badge (he once got some handcuffs though).

[qwerty098765]

Were getting personal again :<
//The base of myndzi's flaw as a mod.

BUT YES. Skill superiority (excuse the choice of word) should not parallel elitism in attitude.
Without any skill difference within a game there would be no depth to that game.

I can't form any coherent arguments when I just wake up :< .
Did the 'Strategy/Help' section get a new description?

[Katatoniopeth]

I don't want to remove the depth of Tetris. Tetris can have depth with 1 preview only, provided garbage is relatively messy. Tetris is most interesting when it is random, because matches are closer under those circumstances.

Bag randomizer, hold and 2 minute games makes the outcome very predictable. It might be that you lose 0 - 10 although every match took 1 minute or longer. This strengthen the attitude of people thinking they are far better, although the difference is much smaller than they think.

What you forget about all those "evil behaviour must be punished" attitude. Ignorance can't be punished. Let's say you make your first post but you are ignored because nobody knows you. Or you ask something on the shout box, but people continue chatting with each other instead of answering your question. In my opinion ignorance is a bigger problem of HardDrop.
Sorry to say so but you achieved the opposite of what you wanted. Good people got banned (e.g. perfectclear) or left the community, because you ruled as an autocrat (without getting the explicit legitimization by Blink btw) and treated people as children. On the other hand, troublemakers like Xeal or Paradox kept their behaviour. Paradox was even rewarded with a "pretty nice guy" badge (he once got some handcuffs though).

Paradox IS a pretty cool guy, he was just poorly misunderstood, and Myndzi was a fair mod, and I believe he made a lot of the right decisions, I think you are being wayyy to critical here...

[Paradox]

Paradox IS a pretty cool guy, he was just poorly misunderstood, and Myndzi was a fair mod, and I believe he made a lot of the right decisions, I think you are being wayyy to critical here...

[myndzi]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Sorry to say so but you achieved the opposite of what you wanted. Good people got banned (e.g. perfectclear) or left the community, because you ruled as an autocrat (without getting the explicit legitimization by Blink btw) and treated people as children. On the other hand, troublemakers like Xeal or Paradox kept their behaviour. Paradox was even rewarded with a "pretty nice guy" badge (he once got some handcuffs though).
[/quote]

I don't want to get into this much here, but there are many incorrect statements here.

Perfectclear left of his own volition, as a protest over his reading of a thread that didn't say what he thought it said. (Actually, he demanded that I delete him, and I refused the request for a good while.)
Blink gave me explicit permission to proceed as I was, which happens to also be the straw that made PC ragequit.
I treated people as their behavior merited. If people are acting childish, it's not surprising if they get treated that way.
XaeL was constantly getting warned, probated, and banned in brief spurts from the shoutbox. You might also note that he has become a rather better poster these days. Coincidence?
Paradox got the PCG badge for putting in hours of volunteer work towards streaming and helping forum members learn the game. The badge was recognition of contribution, not of perfect behavior. Paradox got his share of warnings and minor actions as well.

So, yes, I suppose if you misinterpret all that to suit your opinion, then you could be construed as correct. I certainly won't be able to convince you if you refuse to observe the information presented before your eyes.

Were getting personal again :<
//The base of myndzi's flaw as a mod.

This is ironic considering the reason I'm not moderating now is that I refuse to partake in favoritism, while the biggest conflicts I had were with people who expected favoritism. You'll note that the people I had personal conflicts with were not banned for those conflicts, which is why you heard the shouting match. If I was going around whacking people on a whim, you wouldn't have seen any of that mess.

If any of you would like to complain further about my history as a mod, another thread would be a more appropriate place to do it. This entire subforum began to provide a platform for people to do just that, you may or may not recall. But this thread will be more useful if it doesn't stray off into this realm.

[Integration]

Blink gave me explicit permission to proceed as I was, which happens to also be the straw that made PC ragequit.

LOL Blink didn't even know what was going on on his forum. And perfectclear stated out that he didn't really want to get banned back then. Generally, permabans are a really hard punishments and should only be used only in emergency cases.

I didn't want to start a flamewar here. I just wanted to show an example why heavy moderation of members failed in the past and will fail in future. It creates more tensions than it achieves good.

[yotipo91]

A) Do you think that this is a problem on Hard Drop? And more importantly...
No, there's so many selfless people on here. I don't think I know of anyone who openly boasts their abilities.

B) What do you suggest can be done about it? Please include specific and practical ideas.
Let discussion take its own course, but develop a ladder system to encourage discussion. We let this website run on the shoutbox, the forum, and the wiki, but nobody truly understands where they exist in the realm of Tetris.

HD surely is intimidating when finding a new side to a familiar game, but the people here are more than welcoming. It's not elitism driving away the common end user; there just isn't much to sustain a newcomer's attention.

If a user sees on the front page many usernames matched up against each other on the League system, they might be drawn more to discussion and familiarization of other members. League of Legends has a system where you must be level 30 to play ranked games; likewise a 40 second sprint player can participate in the Nullpomino League. Elitism is inevitable in this system, but luckily there are a plethora of veterans who put the time in to advocate and teach players under them. When a user discovers that their favorite high ranked player has a similar play style, and is friendly and coaches newbies, I can only imagine how often they'll return to this website.

[myndzi]

LOL Blink didn't even know what was going on on his forum.

He knew well enough. I was also in contact with him over Skype.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]And perfectclear stated out that he didn't really want to get banned back then.[/quote]
That's a flat-out lie, then. I may or may not still have pages of Skype conversation of the argument that ensued, but I most emphatically refused to delete his account.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Generally, permabans are a really hard punishments and should only be used only in emergency cases.[/quote]

I quite agree.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
I didn't want to start a flamewar here. I just wanted to show an example why heavy moderation of members failed in the past and will fail in future. It creates more tensions than it achieves good.
[/quote]

I'm not flaming, I'm stating facts. Every one of your 'examples' is patently false. As such, they don't make a very good basis for any statement of reason. You also need to discern between 'heavy' moderation (moderation in quantity) and 'strict' moderation (moderation without wiggle room). I did not moderate heavily. I did moderate strictly.

It would be nice if the people who supported me in private and appreciated the changes I implemented and actions I took would post in public support so that some of you could see that this isn't as one sided as you think, but given the reaming I've gotten from a vocal few members, I can hardly blame them for wanting to keep out of it.

[Aaron]

I support myndzi, sue me.

[BARNCHAK]

It would be nice if the people who supported me in private and appreciated the changes I implemented and actions I took would post in public support so that some of you could see that this isn't as one sided as you think, but given the reaming I've gotten from a vocal few members, I can hardly blame them for wanting to keep out of it.

U have my support ...

[though i'm still mad about the bunny   ]

btw , why don't u post some images of the skype conversations  so that this matter is settled permanently

[Paradox]

I realize that shots were fired so people felt the need to defend themselves but there is a real topic here to discuss. I don't think we need to turn to how the moderation could be doing better because that is sort of not in our control. It makes more sense to look at what we can do as the community members because ultimately its the community that can perpetuate this negative elitist behavior. At the same time if we make additional ways to support newer players it can spread a different mentality.

----

Why was this moved to BWH? It seems like a thread that needs to be visible in the recent threads section.