Perfect Clear Study - Phase 1

[XaeL]

Did you know for just the beginning setup (7-3) there are
7! * 7C3 * 3! possible permutations?

thats 1 058 400

followed by
(4-6)
7C4 * 4! * 7C6 * 6!

followed by
(1-7-2)
7C1 * 7! * 7C2 * 2

followed by
(5-5)
7C5 * 5! * 7C5 * 5!

followed by
(2-7-1)
7C1 * 7! * 7C2 * 2

followed by
(6-4)
7C4 * 4! * 7C6 * 6!

followed by
(3-7)
7! * 7C3 * 3!

followed by
(7-3)
again.


I wrote a program that systematically creates the first 10 pieces of a game (i.e. 7-3):
http://users.tpg.com.au/onged/perms.zip

Usage: unzip
Run command prompt in admin mode.
run using

Code Select Expand


java -jar perms.jar > output.txt
then open output.txt. It's 26 megabytes.


To prove that you can play forever using perfect clears, you must:
prove that you can complete all (7-3), (4-6), (1-7-2), (5-5), (2-7-1),(6-4),(3-7) arrangements of bags
By solving each of these 6 unrelated subproblems we can prove whether or not we can play forever using PC.

Proving the first (7-3) involves proving or finding a way to solve each of the 1058400 starting entries...

[Paul676]

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to get at - we need to close off, say, all ones beginning with X pieces, or ending with X pieces, if we know somehow that all of them make a PC possible, and work on the harder ones. Then repeat the steps of exclusion until we find methods of PCing with harder bags, or bag-types which are impossible, rather than aimlessly doing PCs.

[Shuey]

Paul, I totally agree.  But I'm not knowledgeable or technical enough to know how to go about that.  Also, all of the PCs I've been working on recently are not all being done "aimlessly".  I'm actually working on creating a PC run consisting of 200 b2b PCs.  Once it's completed, I'm going to upload it to YouTube and credit everyone who helped in the description.

[StevieSmiley]

[fumen]110@7eLAoUeAFLDmClcJSAVjiSAVG88AYn88A5s/VCp+Sg?C6CBAAziBXgBOiB6jBxYBNfBThBTcB0aB6gBAAAl[/fumen]
hope i did this right
it's the last one that was posted by shuey
guess I copyed the wrong one , but was still fun solving it

[myndzi]

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to get at - we need to close off, say, all ones beginning with X pieces, or ending with X pieces

How do you plan to approach that without an exhaustive search?

Edit: one approach might be to work with bigger pieces. If you know you can PC with a certain set of shapes, and you know that you can make those shapes with certain sets of pieces, then...

Here's a few:

[fumen]110@zbJwib8essibIwRphb8etshbIwssRpgb8esslzgbus?hb8elzrb1libJwib1lsshbJwsshbIwusgbJwtsgbKwhbJws?srbRpibZiibYiRphbZisshbYiusgbZitsgbZisshbZissrb?Rpib1libssRphb1lsshbtslzgb1ltsgbsslzhb1lssrbA4G?zbxNRpgbEYUKibwNhbYigbEYVKhbwNEYgboUgbEYUKdDgbF?YMRYigbEYdDrbZitsgb4GUK8eJwZigbYigb4GUKwNJwEYZi?MRgb4GUKwN8eIw9ewNYigb4GUKwNJwpb0lYiIw8egboUEY+?ess0lYi8egboUgbMR1lgbYi8ewNgboUgbMRoU0lhbMR8egb?oUgbMRZipbNR9egbMRgb0lZiMRoUYiIwgbMRgboUZiMRoUw?NEYgbMRgboUMRYiMRxNIwgbMRgboUZipbAAAzbRpYiEY0ll?b0lYi8e0llb1l8e0lgbJwlzpUss8e0lgbIwlz8elbIw1l8e?xNNRYigbssYiMRUKxNMRsskzgbtsgbUKwN4GgbssYigbFY7?GhbYigbtsEYUKlbIwts8eMRoUEYQpssgbss0lQpgboUMRoU?QpYigbaioU0loUwN8eYigbYi0lZi0lFYgb8egbrUlb/eIwi?b8egbpUFYtsxNYigbEYgb8eSp8eoUYigbEYgb8eRp1loUQp?gbFYRppbAAAzb6GNRkboUcD4GNRkboUdDNRgb5GdDpUcDNR?gb4GdDEYlb4GNREYgbssQppUgb4GNREYgbssoUdDgb6GEYg?bssoUcDoUlbQp1loUgb5GUKEYlb4GVKEY9egbVKgb4GwNUK?EYMR8ewNUKoUgbxNUKEYMREYYipUgbwNWKMR8e1lEYqbHYU?K9eFYgbHYUKrUgboUNR4GEYoU8ewNoUgboUNR4GWKMRwNgb?pU5GpbAAApbB3jbG3hbR3hbE3zbEY5GmbEY4GnbEY4GUKmb?8eMR9embYiIwmbUKMR8emboUUKnbEYNR8elboU8eEYwNmb1?lmbqUmbYiEYlzlbUKFYmbEYJwEYvbAAApbB3jbD3hbA3pbA?3obB3WcpU5GmboU4GnboU4GwbSp0lmbYi8eQpmbMR8ewbNR?5Gmb9essmbcDoUwbAAApbB3jbD3hbA3pbB3obA3WcRpZimb?RpYiobYiyb8enb9enbwNss6b+enbUKIwvbAAApbB3jbD3hb?D3mbB3nbBAWcxNpUmbxNoUlbRpYiwbWKMRmbFYMRobUKlb/?elbHYmb5GwNmbZiwNvbAAApbB3jbD3hbD3nbAAA3zcZiQpy?bIwoUmbpUwbHYyboUmbqUvbAAApbB3jbD3hbA3qbA3obB33?busYimbaiwbssxbWKEYmbainb4GobpUvbZi1lmbYi1lwbYi?xbAAA[/fumen]

(These apply to the "usual" setup and many of them can be flipped, etc. What needs to be done is to catalog which pieces MUST come before which other pieces, and then a number of permutations can be struck from the list. For something like this, hold usage should be ignored; the fringe scenario is carrying a piece through an entire bag, which is too many pieces for a perfect clear. First held piece and not unholding it gives a 6-piece bag which is covered in the bag combos. Any sequence you can make with hold you can also encounter naturally for these purposes.)

[Paul676]

myndzi: yes, that's what I was thinking about.

[Alucard]

Still Reading all the comments for the study here, but myndzi, aren't you working on a new engine for KoS?
Tell me if I'm talking non sense, but wouldn't be  a system like that one EXCLUSIVELY for PC counting and evaluation a good thing? something like the aforementioned site, but with an automatic DB entry recognition hmm

Well, I'll try my best to be with you guys soon, this is an extremely exciting iniciative! ^^
Congrats!

[Paul676]

I know it's a necro, but this is interesting: http://waka.nu/tetris/template/paf-table.html

[Shuey]

That's pretty cool Paul!  Too bad I don't have the patience to try to read and understand it all .

[Panda]

Still Reading all the comments for the study here, but myndzi, aren't you working on a new engine for KoS?
Tell me if I'm talking non sense, but wouldn't be  a system like that one EXCLUSIVELY for PC counting and evaluation a good thing? something like the aforementioned site, but with an automatic DB entry recognition hmm

Well, I'll try my best to be with you guys soon, this is an extremely exciting iniciative! ^^
Congrats!

YES you have the best forum username in existence!! I just finished watching both the regular and Ultimate seasons, Alucard is so effing badass lol  


Back on topic, is there currently a Perfect Clear tutorial on Harddrop? I've been stumped by this concept for a while and am only aware of the most generic perfect clear method, found all over the net on Youtube. If anyone could provide me a more in-depth guide that covers more tactics and PC solving methods, that would be very much appreciated.

[Paul676]

Strategy --> Guides --> http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4143 --> http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1985

[Panda]

Strategy --> Guides --> http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4143 --> http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1985

Yes, I've read through the entire thread but once again I find only the most generic PC pattern and nothing new or useful besides Noogy's fumen which introduces a new PC pattern. What I'm looking for is a bigger more comprehensive list of all possible PC patterns so I can be flexible in my PC creation. Or at least some in-depth tips and techniques to creatively solve PC without resorting to these basic patterns. I am positive people are aware of such knowledge, as shown by professional KoS players, but I've yet to come across a guide that can teach me the same. It's so frustrating :/

[Pineapple]

I know it's a necro, but this is interesting: http://waka.nu/tetris/template/paf-table.html

The page takes the initial opening setup, and talks about the probability of the next bag cooperating. The long table at the bottom enumerates all 840 possible sequences of the next 4 pieces. The smaller table above summarizes this table, grouping by the first piece of the second bag.

The key to failure after the 8th piece being a T seems to be an O that you are forced to place...

[Paul676]

exactly, and that's why it's so interesting - someone's done a full scale study into PC's! (almost...I bet they've decided that they may as well stick with the normal PC setup as you can't do anything else without knowledge of the next 4 pieces, and then seen how it goes from there.)

[Shuey]

Well, I hope that this will somehow get people interested in this study again .