4 wide is perfectly fair.

[Dagorath]

.

[Shizi]

i love when newbs stroll in here acting like they know what they are saying

you might be able to beat me with a 4wide on TF... but i dare you to try that against me on NP

i'll let you decide why that's the case

[Dagorath]

.

[randomtetrisnoob]

Eh. On NP, it seems that sonic drop powers t-spins up so much that 4-wide and the like aren't that imbalanced anymore (hence Shizi's challenge, I guess?).

And I don't really see why this topic is necessary... nobody complains about it anymore (except probably for some people that are either sticklers for game balance, or those who are probably too slow to fight it back).

Heck, I'm very slow, yet I can survive the initial wave just by cancelling with a DT cannon opener (with a bit of timing), followed by a few t-spins.
I think 4-wide complaints have gone the way of the t-spin complaints (by pure tetrisers when it first came out) and the dinosaurs.

[caffeine]

It's not about whether 4 wide combos are "fair." The question should be whether or not if the rules that lead to them being the best are desirable in the first place. The argument goes that if 4-wide requires less skill than, say, T-Spins, then they should not be rewarded more than T-Spins. A game should best reward whatever "move" that brings the most to the table, strategically speaking. It appears, though, that the current rules of multiplayer Tetris make 4-wide combo openings more effective than T-Spins. Many of us would prefer it to be the other way around.

To illustrate, let's suppose we make a game where the following move (a hurdle-double) will send six lines of garbage:
[fumen]110@KeE3jbH3hbH3hbI3qbA4G7eB6TPOAIgaoDs488Awkk?rDB8BAAAAA[/fumen]
Now all of a sudden, players will start doing as many hurdle doubles as possible. Is it fair? Yes. Is it the type of Tetris game I'd like to play? No, not really. That's what I'm getting at.

[zaphod77]

It's not about whether 4 wide combos are "fair." The question should be whether or not if the rules that lead to them being the best are desirable in the first place. The argument goes that if 4-wide requires less skill than, say, T-Spins, then they should not be rewarded more than T-Spins. A game should best reward whatever "move" that brings the most to the table, strategically speaking. It appears, though, that the current rules of multiplayer Tetris make 4-wide combo openings more effective than T-Spins. Many of us would prefer it to be the other way around.

To illustrate, let's suppose we make a game where the following move (a hurdle-double) will send six lines of garbage:
[fumen]110@KeE3jbH3hbH3hbI3qbA4G7eB6TPOAIgaoDs488Awkk?rDB8BAAAAA[/fumen]
Now all of a sudden, players will start doing as many hurdle doubles as possible. Is it fair? Yes. Is it the type of Tetris game I'd like to play? No, not really. That's what I'm getting at.

I've always considered center gap 4 wide to be unfair when i found out about it.  4 wide is balanced when the gap is not in the center (you can get topped out while trying to stack up for it by a fast tetriser or t-spinner in that case, so the risk versus reward is balanced out).

Sure stacking center gap is more difficult, but the reward for doing so is amazing. you can wether the initial attack, which sends the sides off the top of the screen, then combo down INCLUDING ALL THE STUFF THAT WENT OFF THE TOP OF THE SCREEN and clear the garbage you were sent afterwards. It exploits the top out rules by keeping the entire spawn area clear and still allowing you to do the full combo.

And yes, sonic drop makes t-spinning way too powerful. The time lost soft dropping that T piece really ads up. I suspect that's why it's not in the Guideline, and why it lets T-Spin beat 4-wide on NP.

[Paradox]

4-wide is an all-in build. It either succeeds and you win or you fail and lose. Very rarely does it end in a drawn out game. If you don't want to learn how to downstack or T-spin I recommend it as a starter.

[zaphod77]

Eh. On NP, it seems that sonic drop powers t-spins up so much that 4-wide and the like aren't that imbalanced anymore (hence Shizi's challenge, I guess?).

And I don't really see why this topic is necessary... nobody complains about it anymore (except probably for some people that are either sticklers for game balance, or those who are probably too slow to fight it back).

Heck, I'm very slow, yet I can survive the initial wave just by cancelling with a DT cannon opener (with a bit of timing), followed by a few t-spins.
I think 4-wide complaints have gone the way of the t-spin complaints (by pure tetrisers when it first came out) and the dinosaurs.

If you are surviving the initial 4 wide attack it's because the 4 widers were being stupid and not letting you attack first, and comboing into your attack.  If you are 4 widing, and are attacking before you are forced to by the top of your stack going off the screen you are doing it wrong.

If you stack for a 4 wide you can easily eat 15 lines and return with a 15+ line combo afterwards, unless the game cuts the stack off a few lines past the vanish zone.  A game that does this seriously weakens 4wide. NP may qualify as this.

[randomtetrisnoob]

If you are 4 widing, and are attacking before you are forced to by the top of your stack going off the screen you are doing it wrong.

Is this doable every game though with center 4-wide?
Because almost every center 4-wider that I've played, more than half of the time, usually has to bail out early by starting the combo early due to lack of stacking options. I'm not sure though if that's just them sucking .

[DAS44]

Another one of these threads? Honestly this is getting really old.

Anyways my view on 4W comboing mirrors much of what Caff said.

4W is dreadfully overpowered, sorry but it's true. When it gets to the point that clearing a single line will send 3 lines in it's place, whereas a more complicated setup (that requires more skill, memorization, yadda yadda to pull off) sends considerably less once it's all the way through. Take an STSD, one TSD and a back to back TSD can never account for the ridiculous garbage a 4W can throw out, especially once you hit double digits.

4W is not a tactic which deserves all of this panegyric. It is frowned upon by a large portion of the active players here (and I think it's safe to say Harddrop generally consists of players with a higher skill and knowledge level than most when it comes to tetris).

We do not need another 4W thread, the number of them is half the reason it irritates me so.

[myndzi]

Lol trollin thread. What they said, but add also that Tetris is pretty balanced, in that a player can choose various different strategies and be successful with them - except, as you pointed out, against a 4 wide opener which will force the opponent to do the same. It may be "fair" since the opponent can do the same thing, but is taking the choice and flexibility away desirable?

It should also be noted that Tetris as a game has evolved over time. Tetris DS didn't have combos, some newer Tetris games stopped rewarding kick T-spins, who's to say combos will always exist in their current form? You can't cherry pick the particular game settings you like and then say they are the One True Setting. Nor is it required that the community stick rigidly to TTC's design decisions. In short, your argument holds no real logical weight.

Anyway, an easy 4 wide solution that doesn't nerf combos is to allow KO by pushing the stack past the top - and disable garbage blocking. I'd like to see people stack up a towering center 4 wide in those conditions

[gif]

sigh. not this ʇıɥs again...


i can 4-wide. but i don't. its boring. i play tetris for fun. my only problem with people doing 4-wide (and i mean players who use this technique only) is that most of the time i end up doing 4-wide or other combo setups just to survive the initial attack to play my opponent later (and usually i win ;p).


playing 4wide vs 4wide is really boring. its pretty much rock-paper-scissors thing. you md - you lose.

idk. i play tetris to relax. i like this game because i can do so many things. i like the freedom of techniques. the only scenario where my creativity is limited is a 4widing opponent :s

[perfectclear]

tl;dr

my opinion used to be that of that either 4 wide was overpowered or t spins were underpowered because I had taken the time to learn every t spin opening and mid game tactic that was available at the time and a 4 wide was still an effective opener against them- even if i played faster. what I have realized now is that it is somewhat fair if you look at it not based upon skill but based upon time it takes to set up. once you get as efficient as possible at both set ups, you can choose to set up a four wide if you are given a lot of time in order to guarantee a kill mid-game. or you can use t spins and tetrises and combo downstack to keep the game going and try to gain enough of an edge to perform a finishing move of some sort (b2b tetrises and b2b t spin doubles, or a four wide). I feel as though all aspects of the game have their utilities. if four wide is overpowered it is only the case in lower levels where people dont understand what to do against it, when to use what, etc. this is just my opinion- and I really dont feel like getting into a discussion about it- I just wanted to share.

[myndzi]

> I don't want to discuss but I'll state my opinion anyway

(I suppose it should be mentioned that the conversation seems to be about opening, not midgame - which is quite a different story)

[perfectclear]

i meant my post only as a recourse to see another perspective. its my complete opinion so there isnt any real reason for me to defend it or discuss it *shrug*