4 wide is perfectly fair.

[Profane]

i've always felt like B2B tetriss are under valued.  i think for every B2B you should add more lines. The Spin and combo starts are way more effective then pure speed which in my opinion is just as much of a skill.  if i can send 3 Tetriss back to back to back before you send anything i think you should be pretty fu**ing imho

[MarioThePhenom]

i dont mind pple who 4 wide as an opener in TF, because if you can manage to pull of a B2B tetris within 10 secondes thats about half of there screen gone and the cant use it for there 4 wide, and if you keep the pressure going with rapid tetris's, you can easily counter the garbage

only time were this has failed me is when the hole in the garbage had poped up in the milde of the sceen( the 4 wide gap) and ended giving them free lines

[Shizi]

^ true
4wide in bronze rooms are easily countered

[blazen_azn]

you might be able to beat me with a 4wide on TF... but i dare you to try that against me on NP

I'd like to give it a try.

[ryanunban]

utoh shiz going to get his a** kicked

[Ravendarksky]

i've always felt like B2B tetriss are under valued.  i think for every B2B you should add more lines. The Spin and combo starts are way more effective then pure speed which in my opinion is just as much of a skill.  if i can send 3 Tetriss back to back to back before you send anything i think you should be pretty fu**ing imho

Agree with the B2B part, but not the tetris part.

Stacking for tetris is pretty much a fallback for most people. It feels like the least skillfull because everyone spends a great deal of time practicing it while improving 40L times.

Pure speed should never beat slower and more 'skillful'.

Of course our defintions of what is skillful differ here so I can't really disagree with what you say

[zaphod77]

i dont mind pple who 4 wide as an opener in TF, because if you can manage to pull of a B2B tetris within 10 secondes thats about half of there screen gone and the cant use it for there 4 wide, and if you keep the pressure going with rapid tetris's, you can easily counter the garbage

only time were this has failed me is when the hole in the garbage had poped up in the milde of the sceen( the 4 wide gap) and ended giving them free lines

Well yeah, if they are noob 4 widers.

But what if they play as fast as you do?

You must place at least 20 pieces to get a back to back tetris.

If they play 20 pieces, they have 13 lines to work with.  Actually, they have more because you lost time from line clear delay. You then hit them for nine. you now need to drop ten pieces (30 total  minimum) to send them another tetris. after they drop ten pieces you are sent 24 lines=death before you drop piece number ten. Of course since they are clearing now, they are now finally eating line clear delay, but you probably took more than 20 pieces to get that second tetris too.

THAT'S why it's broken.

Given anything close to identical stacking speed, the 4 wider will win.  In practice it's faster to stack for tetrises, but once mastered it's very difficult to beat without doing the same thing.

Oh, and the odds of the garbage hole cooperating for them is 40 percent.  that's pretty good odds.

T-spinning them is a much better choice from a piece efficiency standpoint, and actually works on NP because of sonic drop.  THe slow soft drop kills you when you try that on TF, though.

[caffeine]

T-spinning them is a much better choice from a piece efficiency standpoint, and actually works on NP because of sonic drop.  THe slow soft drop kills you when you try that on TF, though.

Technically speaking, combos require soft drops, too. Looking purely at each attack's throughput: "lines sent over pieces used," we can compare the two method's efficiency. Chopin and I played around one night on Nullpomino and found that the best T-Spinner can manage about 1 TSD and 3 BTBTSDs, while the 4-wider can get about an 9 or more combo (when they play against each other). The thing you must remember is that this is much more difficult for the T-Spinner to pull off than the 4-wider, since how often can someone really do four consecutive TSDs?

Given the garbage tables for Nullpomino, the throughput values for each will therefore be:'
0.95 4 Consecutive TSDs
0.70 2 TSDs, a Double, then a TSD (more practical)

0.71 Combo 8er
0.80 Combo 9er
0.87 Combo 10er
0.97 Combo 11er

This is why I believe combos are a good bet, especially when you can extend the combo with incoming garbage. Unless you are godlike efficient with TS's, it's going to be difficult to compete against a decent comboer in terms of throughput. I believe the combo table should be tweaked so that a combo 14 is about 80% of the throughput of a BTBTSD. (Of course, this is different for different games due to line clear delay and softdrop delay).

[Paradox]

What about other static setups vs combos? Like those b2b set ups vs combos, how well do they do?

[Beastin_Shen]

its not how i like to play, id rather have items be more mainstream.

its fair though cause anyone can do it. theyre just lame

[caffeine]

What about other static setups vs combos? Like those b2b set ups vs combos, how well do they do?

I'm afraid I'm not sure to what exactly you're referring to. Like B2B Tetrises?

[zaphod77]

I'm afraid I'm not sure to what exactly you're referring to. Like B2B Tetrises?

I'm pretty sure there are a number of t-spin openings. I'm a crappy t-spinner, though.

AS for items... anyone can abuse a 4 wide if they snag the I piece fever item. hard drop, hard drop, hard drop...  And that's not even a party item.

Just because it doesn't let a noob beat an expert doesn't mean it's not broken.  We have to evaluate it by considering players of equal skill in their tactic.

If it's more likely that 40% that the 4 wider stalls, then it's probably not broken (because that's the odds of them having a guaranteed combo into your attack.) but i somehow doubt that's the case.

Of course i've always wanted to try tetris with the following garbage hole change system.

For each line of garbage, select the column with the most filled cells. Break ties by alternating between leftmost and rightmost, with even garbage lines breaking ties on the right, and odd ones on the left. cancelled ones don't count. That way people are guaranteed to ave to downstack a lot to get to it.