Four Wide

[oceanhighway]

the comboer needs 1 line clear to send several lines whereas the defender needs at least 1 line clear to remove those lines sent.

both line clear delay and soft drop speed help against 4wide

meow you are forgetting the part where the 4wider needs to go through several line clears to even reach the point where they start sending lines.

[Ravendarksky]

I reserve comboing for when I get the I block powerup in an items battle. Then its a guaranteed 15-20 4w combo death for whoever I'm playing.

As far as this debate goes.

Combos = Greatest damage for least skill. Only works well against non pro players. It's the cheap option and is therefore. N00b.

I don't really get bothered by combos. Like oceanhighway said, if you just get a good amount of lines off at the start then it doesn't matter. Or you can just line up and PC and spike them at the start

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[mzhang]

mom is a hater

haha also i'm a noob player. always doing tetris setups to start

[NoManual]

Line clear delay is what stops combo from being one big spike...  You don't want to take it out to make combos weaker.  No line clear delay makes something such as 4w mid considerably more powerful.  all DS moves are 1 tap no DAS in 4 wide mid...

If you want to make them weaker, the soft drop needs to be faster, or you can actually take matters into your own hands and just learn how to T-spin start efficiently.  It might take a little effort on your part (surprise)

Yeh I figure t-spinning is better/easier vs higher 'lvl'..

[Ravendarksky]

hahah I just 5-wided someone

[Paul676]

ok this thread proves why this 4 wide hating is self-contradictory.

a. "4 wide is the only chance a weaker player has to beat the elite" and is therefore OP and noob
a. "Only works well against non pro players." and therefore is noob.

When I have more time I will show more self-contradictions in 4 wide hating.

p.s. We have now seen 2 patterns of opening defeat even the middle 4 wider  So it's hardly, even at its peak an OP setup.

a. TKI setup (also a set pattern, again does not show skill, assuming that it's the ability to see and setup freestyle tspins is what we would call skill)
b. Perfect clears (a set pattern)

Remember with tf das and ar settings, it is very slow to set up, with tf line clear delay it is very slow to complete, and with e+ settings, assuming the 4-wider has garbage to counter at the start of 4 wide, he will send pretty easy garbage as meow stated.

And if you say s0nic has no skill at tetris, then frankly you're ignorant. Watch him play midgame. Watch him play Marathon. I challenge anybody who isn't 10 seconds or more faster than him in sprint to defeat him in Arena, even when he is not 4 widing. By the way, have any of you guys seen how little the guy misdrops. I have immense respect for him...and you should too.

I suspect that 4 widers say that it's OP when asked because everyone says it. I also suspect they say that because if they say no, they know that people from here will brand them as 4 wide noobs. They also say that because they'll just get into an argument if they say it's not. And who wants that when you're here to enjoy yourself playing tetris?

[DAS44]

Combos are incredibly annoying, but (especially on TF) they are effective. I don't much hate combos anymore. If I can't beat 'em, so be it.

I tend to spin and tetris, comboing ruins the fun for me.

[Corrosive]

If there is a "noob" tactic, it's setting up for tetrises.

son of a b*tch

[Ravendarksky]

b. Perfect clears (a set pattern)

It's not my fault the game gives me the same 7 pieces at the start

[Paul676]

/\ noob tactic. jk lol

[Ukrainian4Life]

Line clear delays should be the way they are on TOJ or NP (in order to give tspinners more of a chance to live). 4w is not a noob tactic..but I still have to learn it.

[Paul676]

Line clear delays should be the way they are on TOJ or NP (in order to give tspinners more of a chance to live). 4w is not a noob tactic..but I still have to learn it.

I'll prove now that the tf line clear delay is more beneficial for tspinners than 4 widers than either the TOJ one or the NP one.

Let's say each one clears 10 lines. Let's say the person who is tspinning gets 5 TSDs. The person who is 4 widing gets a 10 combo.

The way tf's line clear delay works is that it's the same line clear delay whether you get a single or a tetris, or anything. Hence for TF, the 4 wider has 10 line clear delay units whilst the tspinner gets 5. That is a difference of 5 units in favour of the tspinner.

For NP, there is no line clear delay, and therefore both get 0 units. That's 5 units better for the 4-wider than on tf.

For TOJ, the line clear delay is proportional to the number of lines that you clear. So clearing 1 line gets 1 unit, 2 lines gets 2 units etc. So on TOJ, both get 10 units. Again, 5 units better for the 4-wider than the tspinner.

(p.s. if the tspinner went for some singles and doubles, the facts of this study wouldn't change...and if they only go for singles, they deserve to die! (and would die against a tetriser and a tspinner anyway)

So actually in terms of line clear delay only, the 4 wider should be happier to be on TOJ or NP than the Tspinner

In terms of soft drop, the 4 wider will have to soft drop about as many pieces or probably even more as the tspinner would in order to complete the combo correctly. If they do a 4 wide middle, they will have to soft drop other pieces such as Is to maintain a clean stack. So again the 4 wider should be happy to be on TOJ or NP.

Finally, in terms of DAS, a middle 4 wide player should be happier than the tspinner to be on TOJ or NP because the AR on tf is extremely slow, meaning that building the combo takes far longer proportionally on TF than on TOJ or NP than building tspins or tetrises does.

[caffeine]

Yeah, in this thread I keep hearing that line clear delay helps comboing, which just isn't the case! I'll take what Paul's saying and step it up a level. Let's quantify the effects of line clear delay on both TSDs and Combos.
We can find the the throughput of any given event by taking the total lines it adds (benefit) and dividing it by the number of pieces it costs to preform (cost). Events sometimes have hidden costs, though. Softdrop costs a little more time, and so does line clear delay. Say a player goes 2TPS. TF's line clear delay is 12 frames. That means he could be placing (12/60)*2 pieces in the time it took that line clear to finish. We can quantify soft dropping in the same way. Say we must soft drop a piece 19 rows and we go 2TPS. TF's soft drop speed is 1G, so that's (19/60)*2*1 additional cost.

A TSD sends 4 lines and costs 5 pieces (really it costs at least 6, but that additional piece will go to the next TSD's throughput, and to ignore that would be like counting the piece twice). 4/(5+((12/60)*2)+((19/60)*2)) = 0.663. If we ignore line clear delay, then it's 4/(5+((0/60)*2)+((19/60)*2)) = 0.710. That's an increase in throughput of 7%.

Let's do a Combo 9. It would send a total of 17 garbage rows and would require 10 discrete line clears. Let's assume we have to soft drop at least twice, since they usually call for a few soft drops. That would yield a throughput of 17/(25+(((12/60)*2)*10)+(((19/60)*2)*2)) = 0.562. Let's try again, but this time with no line clear delay. 17/(25+(((0/60)*2)*10)+(((19/60)*2)*2)) = 0.647. That's a 15% increase in throughput.

So in this example, line clear delay hurts both TSDs and Combos, but the effect is worse for Combos. The effect only gets more pronounced the higher the line clear delay the game uses, and the faster you play.

[chopin]

I suspect that 4 widers say that it's OP when asked because everyone says it. I also suspect they say that because if they say no, they know that people from here will brand them as 4 wide noobs.

You don't think 4 wide is FREAKING STRONG????????

[Paul676]

You don't think 4 wide is FREAKING STRONG????????

If you can find me 1 player out of the 16 who were in the finals of the TTO who regularly 4 wides, I will concede that 4 wide has a tiny bit of the power of tspins and tetrises.

If you can find me 8 out of the 16 who were in the finals of the TTO who regularly 4 wide, I will concede that 4 wide has similar power to low tspins as setups.

If you can find me more than that, I will concede that 4 wide is "freaking strong".

And it's no use saying that "noobs 4 wide, and that's why the ones in the top 16 use TKI setups/tspins", because as it's been shown, at least 2 setups (TKI and PC) have more power and are therefore more OP than 4 wide. Also, I'm sure if it were as strong as you suggest, in a tournament such as the TTO where people play to win, people would play 4 wide if it were the only way to win. But the evidence suggests that it is in fact quite low power in comparison to the risk in playing it.