Four Wide

[meow]

never seen 4 wide win against a decent player on nullpo

slow soft drop affects the combo stacker but not as much as the tspinner. the tspinner relies on short fast attacks to reduce the stack height of the comboer. on tf, the other player can drop at least 4 pieces while you're soft dropping a tspin lol.

i have to disagree with agamemnon, the garbage pattern of the 4wide isn't that damaging. it allows the possibility to cancel the ugly garbage at the start easily. and if you can survive a 4wide on a game with little line clear delay, your opponent is toast from the counter attack from the clean garbage.

[Noogy]

[fumen]110@7eaDXIxmBUjBveB9UBagBeRBOVBpTBMKBnGBtEBD7A?iBB28A0yAC2AtgBrhBRhBfhBlhBfiBrgBaiBEhBpbB[/fumen]

Try to make a fumen that beats/survives against this comboer in 4 bags. w/ TF settings. Do it turn by turn.

My prediction : 4 wide or perfect clear will survive against it.
If you think there are methods that will beat 4wide or cancel it I would like to see them.

my field
[fumen]110@7eDDbIBmBEcBviB0bssnbusmbD3PeKPPIAUoo2AooM?oD7eAWOPAA0bUKnbWKmbDAPeFgB7eA+eB9b/elbD3Pe0PPI?AJoo2AooMoD7eBnLPAAlhB9b/elbD3lbHYlbDA7driB7eCK?fBeiBEcB9bHYcd8eob8eob8eob8e9bSQA7eBFgBjiBKcoUm?bqUTdYiobYiobZi7bhZA7eAHgBRcHYlbDA7dBbB7eBlhBAA?A[/fumen]

your field
[fumen]110@7eGDXIxmBUjBveB9UBagBeRBPdIwlbsshbIwkbtsgb?JwkbkzssgbZikblz1lwNjbRpYi1lwNgb/eFYA34GYiE38e0?lA3oUIwE39essMRIwD3Rp8essMRIwA3nzRppbOBB7eCp/AM?2AnyAQcQpgblzkbRplzIwjb8eQpssKwjb8etsKwjb8ekzss?IwZijb8ekz1lwNUKjbQpgb0lyNgb+ehbEYYi4GYiD3kz1lY?i4GYiD3kz8e0lYioUIwD3kz9essMRIwD3Rp8etsIwA3mzEY?RpgbA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAArbtXA7eODOAiU?A2PA0FACJAtjOWAjHfhDvoo2Awno2AJmQTAzB88AQeAAAjk?OWAjHfhDvoo2Axno2AJmQTAzB88AwcAAABkOWAjHfhDvoo2?Ayno2AJmQTAzB88AQbAAAPkOWAjHfhDvoo2Azno2AJmQTAz?B88AwZAAAlkOWAjHfhDvoo2A0no2AJmQTAzB88AwfAAAPlO?WAjHfhDvoo2A1no2AJmQTAzB88AwcAAAjjOWAjHfhDvoo2A?2no2AJmQTAzB88AwZAAAalOXAjHfhDvoo2A3no2AzIRoDls?CSAS4oAAEkOXAjHfhDvoo2A4no2AzIRoDlsCSASovAApeOX?AjHfhDvoo2A5no2AzIRoDlsCSASo4AA[/fumen]


hope i did this right
inc = incoming

[meow]

its TF settings, you have to pass 3-4 turns before you can launch that attack!

[caffeine]

my field
[fumen]110@7eDDbIBmBEcBviB0bssnbusmbD3PeKPPIAUoo2AooM?oD7eAWOPAA0bUKnbWKmbDAPeFgB7eA+eB9b/elbD3Pe0PPI?AJoo2AooMoD7eBnLPAAlhB9b/elbD3lbHYlbDA7driB7eCK?fBeiBEcB9bHYcd8eob8eob8eob8e9bSQA7eBFgBjiBKcoUm?bqUTdYiobYiobZi7bhZA7eAHgBRcHYlbDA7dBbB7eBlhBAA?A[/fumen]

your field
[fumen]110@7eGDXIxmBUjBveB9UBagBeRBPdIwlbsshbIwkbtsgb?JwkbkzssgbZikblz1lwNjbRpYi1lwNgb/eFYA34GYiE38e0?lA3oUIwE39essMRIwD3Rp8essMRIwA3nzRppbOBB7eCp/AM?2AnyAQcQpgblzkbRplzIwjb8eQpssKwjb8etsKwjb8ekzss?IwZijb8ekz1lwNUKjbQpgb0lyNgb+ehbEYYi4GYiD3kz1lY?i4GYiD3kz8e0lYioUIwD3kz9essMRIwD3Rp8etsIwA3mzEY?RpgbA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAArbtXA7eODOAiU?A2PA0FACJAtjOWAjHfhDvoo2Awno2AJmQTAzB88AQeAAAjk?OWAjHfhDvoo2Axno2AJmQTAzB88AwcAAABkOWAjHfhDvoo2?Ayno2AJmQTAzB88AQbAAAPkOWAjHfhDvoo2Azno2AJmQTAz?B88AwZAAAlkOWAjHfhDvoo2A0no2AJmQTAzB88AwfAAAPlO?WAjHfhDvoo2A1no2AJmQTAzB88AwcAAAjjOWAjHfhDvoo2A?2no2AJmQTAzB88AwZAAAalOXAjHfhDvoo2A3no2AzIRoDls?CSAS4oAAEkOXAjHfhDvoo2A4no2AzIRoDlsCSASovAApeOX?AjHfhDvoo2A5no2AzIRoDlsCSASo4AA[/fumen]
hope i did this right
inc = incoming

Nice work, but I think you're using the wrong Combo table. Here's what I came up with:

[fumen]110@7eGDXIxmBUjBveB9UBagBeRBPdIwlbsshbIwkbtsgb?JwkbkzssgbZikblz1lwNjbRpYi1lwNgb/eFYA34GYiE38e0?lA3oUIwE39essMRIwD3Rp8essMRIwA3nzRppbOBB7eCp/AM?2AnyAQcQpgblzkbRplzIwjb8eQpssKwjb8etsKwjb8ekzss?IwZijb8ekz1lwNUKjbQpgb0lyNgb+ehbEYYi4GYiD3kz1lY?i4GYiD3kz8e0lYioUIwD3kz9essMRIwD3Rp8etsIwA3mzEY?RpgbA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAArbtXA7eODOAiU?A2PA0FACJAtjOWAjHfhDvoo2Awno2AJmQTAzB88AQeAAAjk?OWAjHfhDvoo2Axno2AJmQTAzB88AQeAAABkOWAjHfhDvoo2?Ayno2AJmQTAzB88AwcAAAPkOWAjHfhDvoo2Azno2AJmQTAz?B88AQbAAAlkOWAjHfhDvoo2A0no2AJmQTAzB88AQhAAAPlO?WAjHfhDvoo2A1no2AJmQTAzB88AQeAAAjjOWAjHfhDvoo2A?2no2AJmQTAzB88AQbAAAalOXAjHfhDvoo2A3no2AzIRoDls?CSASomAAEkOXAjHfhDvoo2A4no2AzIRoDlsCSASYtAApeOX?AjHfhDvoo2A5no2AzIRoDlsCSASY2AA[/fumen]

After the exchange, the T-Spinner will wind up with, I think, 1 hole followed by 3 lined-up, followed by 4 lined-up. Still, pretty close match up.

[Paradox]

thats some nice t-spinning. Plus one of the ones you showed required soft dropping (even though you played it turn by turn likie I told you to) soft dropping in real time would result in a big loss of speed (on tf).

I'm sure you could have done a variation to avoid that anyway though.

But it seems much more difficult to t-spin like that than to 4-wide in my opinion. I don't know anyone who t-spins like that but I know people who combo like that haha.

[blazen_azn]

i think everyone should know how to combo, and know how to adequately prepare for it...we all consider it the lowest amount of skill to the highest amount of output, so it shouldnt be hard learn. dont want the game to be based on the bag after the combo? just three wide or learn to tspin/tetris, it will help you out later

[ohitsstef]

lol  aaron now you'll be remembered for two things
"get used to the lag!"
and "4 wide isn't for noobs"
lolol jk

I wouldn't say a 4 wide is a complete noob opening but maybe if you grow dependent on it so much that you have no other openings.. or you don't have anything else to do after your opening is cancelled out then it's kind of a noob move.

But if you can play with other openings - and know how to set up the 4 wide - for the occasional game - then it's whatever to me.

[oceanhighway]

Here's my opinions on the matter.  There's good times and bad times to use combos, and at the start of the game is one of the best times.   I honestly don't think there's much of a difference between 3w and 4w.  3w is more reliable to downstack and also gives the added bonus of being WAY easier to return the opponent's garbage as part of the combo, as well as the 3/10 chance that tetris garbage can line up in the combo gap and be eliminated before the combo is even finished building.

I come from poker so I might have a slightly different perspective (winning is the objective no matter how you do it), but isn't that the point of the game is to take the rules and figure out how to best take advantage of them?  That's pretty much Strategy 101 in any game.

Think about in Football.  Touchdowns vs. Field Goals.  You could try to kick a 60 yard field goal every drive cause that takes the most skill and is the hardest to do, but you could also take the "easy way out" and try scoring 4 more points with a higher success rate.  Therefore, the ruleset favors driving down the field and trying to run into the end zone rather than lining up a 60 yard field goal on 1st down when you get to the opponent's 43.   Do people complain that touchdowns are broken?  No.  As in any competitive game, you try to do the most effective thing the easiest way possible.  I don't see why ppl have a problem when it comes to Tetris.  Either play with different rulesets (ex: Blockbox) or stop complaining.

Even so, a good T-spinner should not be beaten over 50% of the time by combos, even in the worst possible scenario (read below if you want my sorta proof of it)

Meow's got his numbers a bit off when it comes to slow soft drop.  Soft drop on Tetrisfriends takes .5 seconds roughly (defintely less than .6), so if you're going to be dropping 3-4 combo pieces during that time period, then you're moving at 6-8 pieces per second (360-480 TPM).  1.5 pieces is way closer to the truth if they're a fast player (180 TPM).  Each row on the 4w build is 6 blocks (6/4 = 1.5 tetronimoes), so for each soft drop you're doing you're increasing their combo length by about 1.  With 9 rows of garbage from the first 2 bags (2 TSD's), you're giving them 2 bags + 6 pieces (14 +6 = 20) to build a combo.  20x 4 = 80 / 6 = 13.3 rows = max 12 combo, and you're putting yourself at risk to be KO'd by the 2nd tspin by building so high.  You'll have to use the combo to cancel the 5 lines from the tspin, so heres what you'll be sending at most..

Combo 5 = 1
Combo 6 = 2
Combo 7 = 3
Combo 8 = 3
Combo 9 = 4
Combo 10 = 4
Combo 11 = 4
Combo 12 = 5


that's 25 lines, but you've gotta imagine 2 TSpins are also sent during that time with sorta slow downstacking with Line Clear delay, so thats only 15 lines, which isnt even a KO.  Then factor in sendback tetrises and whatnot and you're not even getting close to KO'd in pretty much the worst scenario.

So.. someone who is truly good at tspins should be able to counter combo starters.  You pretty much need to send 9 lines in the first 2 bag though, which means you can't waste any T's.  Difficult, but possible pretty much every time.

[EnFuego]

Combos were overpowered on TF. (and still are in FFA)

If you get lucky and don't get sent garbage you can then stack up a huge combo. Which makes TF FFA too much luck based.


4-widing is for people who want to abuse a broken game so they can win.

[chopin]

POST EDITED
"Isn't the point of the game to take the rules and figure out how to best take advantage of them?"

"Someone who is truly good at tspins should be able to counter combo starters. You pretty much need to send 9 lines in the first 2 bag though, which means you can't waste any T's. Difficult, but possible pretty much every time."

Well if it's broken should it be fixed? The amount of effort needed to survive is much heavier on the non-comboer. As of now, it seems only combo is truly/consistently equal against combo. If anything I don't think anyone would disagree to have a weaker combo table. I believe that combo starts should still be viable but not a 'the only chance for one (a weaker player) to steal a victory off of the elite' as Zero puts in his 4-wide guide.

Everybody knows that combo starts (and mid-game combo setups) are overpowered. All comboers I ask they say something like 'lol' followed by them agreeing that it's OP. If T-Spin Doubles sent 7 lines each (as an example) we shouldn't accept that, we should work for a change to achieve a better balance. I don't think telling someone to not complain and to just play another game is the right approach.

There is also the possibility of the following. This is what usually happens actually and even though it's not a full 4-wide stack, it has a great chance of a godly combo or kill.

[fumen]110@7eGDXIxmBUjBveB9UBagBeRBPdIwlbsshbIwkbtsgb?JwkbkzssgbZikblz1lwNjbRpYi1lwNgb/eFYA34GYiE38e0?lA3oUIwE39essMRIwD3Rp8essMRIwA3nzRppbOBB7eCp/AM?2AnyAQcQpgblzkbRplzIwjb8eQpssKwjb8etsKwjb8ekzss?IwZijb8ekz1lwNUKjbQpgb0lyNgb+ehbEYYi4GYiD3kz1lY?i4GYiD3kz8e0lYioUIwD3kz9essMRIwD3Rp8etsIwA3mzEY?RpgbA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAArbtXA7eEDOAiU?A2PA0FACJAYilzjbssRp1lIwjbEYYi0lgbZijbEYZimbwNQ?pYiQplbwNYi0l8ewNUKjbEYgb0lyNgb+ehbEYYi4GYiD3kz?1lYi4GYiD3kz8e0lYioUIwD3kz9essMRIwD3Rp8etsIwA3m?zEYRpgbA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAkbAAibA3kb?AAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3kbAAibA3rbAAA7eAAAA[/fumen]

This one is taken from Zero's 4-Wide Guide. This happens a lot, so you can even count on a higher combo that doesn't only involve your own, placed pieces. So in Paradox's 4 bag setup, the combo potential can be more if the garbage hole comes up in the middle.

[fumen]105@7eO3XIhlBSoBMaBzdBGZBJRBNQBWUBsGBTKBCFBNBB?v3AZzATc8embkzgb8emblz8embsskz8embts0ljbaioUQp0?ljbYi1loUMRkbIw1lgboUkbKwgbEYMRjbSpEYgbMRjb8egb?0lEY0lIwjbMRgbEYZigb+egbyN0lQpkzB3gbA3aiRpkzB3g?bA3tsYiQp9eB3gbA3tsIw9emzEYA3KwpbvZA7eRWsATiAsc?A6YAd+OBARAAAAX9OBASAAAAt8OBATAAAAr9OBAUAAAAi9O?BAVAAAAu8OBAWAAAA39OBAXAAAAR9OBAYAAAAa+OBAZAAAA?U9OCARYAAAR9OCAxZAAAl8OCARbAAAuHPCAxcAAAAwNGAlc?56CpFBAA[/fumen]

[meow]

my numbers were only a bit off  

3-4 pieces is about right if you factor in the long line clear delay. that's how many pieces i feel i could get in when i'm tspinning. those ~3 pieces, let's say extra 6 pieces, gives 2 extra lines, which in a ~10 combo adds 8/10 lines more.

this could be fixed by reducing the line clear delay. once the combo is sent your way, you cannot clear through the garbage with so much time wasted. meanwhile, the comboer has already built up their second 4 wide while you are recovering finishing you off if you survived the first.

[Paradox]

yeah I think combo setups would be less of a problem if line clear delay was 0.

[NoManual]

Comboing is awsome, but hell as anoying. I'm just trying to learn it atm, and it is not very simple. Simple is stacking for tetrises, thats simple. I can pull off some 3 wides, and man, it's amazing. All the lines.. Specially if playing against computer (on lvl 1), baaaam, suddenly he's dead..  

I will try to learn more of it, but tbh I think Tspinning is alot more fun, and as ppl said be4 'not so noob to do'.

[oceanhighway]

Line clear delay is what stops combo from being one big spike...  You don't want to take it out to make combos weaker.  No line clear delay makes something such as 4w mid considerably more powerful.  all DS moves are 1 tap no DAS in 4 wide mid...

If you want to make them weaker, the soft drop needs to be faster, or you can actually take matters into your own hands and just learn how to T-spin start efficiently.  It might take a little effort on your part (surprise)

[meow]

the comboer needs 1 line clear to send several lines whereas the defender needs at least 1 line clear to remove those lines sent.

both line clear delay and soft drop speed help against 4wide