Four Wide

[coolmaninsano]

[Paul676]

controversial food for thought there

[Paradox]

Most importantly, please give me the figures and evidence to back your table up.

You want me to make figures to back up that I think combos are moderately difficult?

really now.

[Paul676]

I want figures to back up your ratings of respective power. They seem to be in their current form "per attack", which isn't a good way to rate attacks for the reasons I have stated in past comments in this thread. I have offered you attack per piece, which is convertible directly into attack per minute. What you called attack per minute on your table is nothing of the sort. For example, we all know that tsts are less powerful in terms of attack per piece and attack per minute given the same speed than tsds, but on your table, you suggest the contrary. Which is blatantly wrong (I can easily mathematically prove this if you yourself can't (and I think you're an intelligent person who probably can do so (I'll give you a clue...(5/2)>(7/3))). Which leads me to not be able to rely on your table at all.

Once you have modified your table in this way, if you want to rate their respective difficulties based on your personal opinion, you can. But don't expect anybody who knows a jot about statistics, maths or science to take the resulting table with any gravity, impact or seriousness whatsoever.

On the other hand, if you produce tables based on something you can back up with evidence which someone can to even some extent rely upon, which contradict my argument, I will happily confess that I am wrong and 4 wide is overpowered.

[coolmaninsano]

When my friend introduced me to TF, we used to play 1on1s all the time and he would usually barely edge me. I was getting frustrated and realized what I was doing was not working. So I asked around on here and learned t-spin doubles and perfect clears. After maybe five more 1on1s he didn't like to play me anymore =(

Also, when I posted that video of me playing when I was silver, I took the advice that XaeL gave me and I improved.

Then, when I wasn't beating people anymore, I was looking for a new strategy. I learned four wide. It worked.

So someone who can't win with their current way of playing, and moving to a more powerful one and wins, is a noob?

[Paul676]

When my friend introduced me to TF, we used to play 1on1s all the time and he would usually barely edge me. I was getting frustrated and realized what I was doing was not working. So I asked around on here and learned t-spin doubles and perfect clears. After maybe five more 1on1s he didn't like to play me anymore =(

Also, when I posted that video of me playing when I was silver, I took the advice that XaeL gave me and I improved.

Then, when I wasn't beating people anymore, I was looking for a new strategy. I learned four wide. It worked.

So someone who can't win with their current way of playing, and moving to a more powerful one and wins, is a noob?

Just as noob as: someone who can't win with their current way of playing (4 wide), and moving to a more powerful one (TKI) and wins, is a noob?
 
         

[EnFuego]

90% change garbage makes for the biggest see-saw battles ever. When the garbage changes every ~10 pieces it isn't downstacking, it is whoever can keep B2B and play the fastest.


Combos are overpowered because there is no downside to using combos. If you build up a center 4-wide, you can just wait for some garbage and send back more to your opponent. The worst you can do with combos would be to send 5 lines of messy garbage to the opponent while any other opening will send clean garbage with the same result.

[caffeine]

90% change garbage makes for the biggest see-saw battles ever.

wat.

[chopin]

I suggest an alternate reason why they started tspin doubling: They were comboing, until they came across people e.g. TOJ players such as Hebo or rowa who don't let them combo because they TKI (which is more OP than 4 wide and any other combo) and then they stop because they have found now a more powerful, easier and less risky setup to do.

I bet 4-Wide Hebo can beat T-Spin Hebo. I also don't agree with the 'risk factor' you put towards 4-wide such as misdrops..... (wtf lol). I don't see any weakness of 4 wide.

Also, I didn't see any fumen of T-Spins beating 4-wide anywhere. And the only comboers I remember from TTO were you, Aaron, Sonic, and KoreanYama. Aaron is slow and lost to your 4-wide, Sonic is slow and played versus one of the top players in Japan who is also fast (yet note that he barely lost but was only able to keep up because of combo), and KoreanYama who did make it to top 16 but got defeated by speed powerhouses (but note that KoreanYama came back against Massi4h with combo and got close against MicroBlizz because of combo).

Caffeine and I ran some tests on NullpoMino. This is pretty much all of the results, however we did not record videos where the T-Spin player wastes T's or if the combo stacking was bad. Take account that Nullpomino has faster soft drop while Tetris Friends and TOJ have slower soft drops. Also note that NullpoMino garbage tables is a tad stronger than that of Tetris Friends, but even with the weaker table applied you can see that combo still has better outcome. You can see the video below.

[Paul676]

Very interesting video - the comboer does get a lot of lucky holes, which I hadn't counted on before.

It's slightly misleading to say that caffeine learned how to 4 wide in 10 minutes - it implies he's had no experience of the sort, when I'm sure that he has played/done a lot of research on similar builds such as "playing forever" - caff - if I'm wrong, please say.

I wouldn't put it only down to luck that top tspinners beat decent 4 widers though. There has to be a reason lol... you just don't get tournament results like that where what seems by far the best tactic is beaten by a less good one so regularly.

This only leads me to wonder, therefore, why it seems that the successful players tspin rather than 4 wide, because certainly when 4 wide players tend to lose against quick tspins. The only explanations I can think of are that 4 wide middle on average is slower to set up at top speed than quick tspins, at top speed, it is easy to mess up stacking for 4-wide, which kills it (what Aaron said in the first post)

What I will concede is that on average, 4 wide middle has more power than tspin doubles when they go at the same pace and do not mess up at all.

I'm still not convinced that 4 wide Hebo could beat tspin Hebo. You saw on video 3 that although both were near the top, it took about 3 pieces for both of them to get to the easy garbage. But it is obvious that 4 wide is an exceptionally powerful tactic.

So... is it just an anomaly that no 4 wider (koreanyama does 3 wides) got through to the top 16? What is the reason why skilled players prefer quick tspin doubles to 4 wide middle? Habit?

[XaeL]

For example, we all know that tsts are less powerful in terms of attack per piece and attack per minute given the same speed than tsds, but on your table, you suggest the contrary. Which is blatantly wrong (I can easily mathematically prove this if you yourself can't (and I think you're an intelligent person who probably can do so (I'll give you a clue...(5/2)>(7/3))). Which leads me to not be able to rely on your table at all.

Tsd = 4 lines for 1 piece
tst = 6 lines for 1 piece
I dont understand where u got 5/2 and 7/3

Also, when I posted that video of me playing when I was silver, I took the advice that XaeL gave me and I improved.

Lol wut? xael helps peopel?

[oceanhighway]

Paul, not many ppl used 4w cause it's looked down upon, so those who are fast are usually going to just use tetrises or tspin.

You don't lose games in the first 30 seconds cause you 4w mid.  I think it's fairly safe to say that no uber pros got eliminated BECAUSE they used 4wide mid rather than T-spins or Tetrises.

Not only are 4w mid players rare, but they also learn Tspins and Tetrises slower so they aren't usually as good midgame.

[Paul676]

Tsd = 4 lines for 1 piece
tst = 6 lines for 1 piece
I dont understand where u got 5/2 and 7/3

tsd w/o b2b: 2 lines cleared, 4 lines sent. Attack per line=2. I do it in this way because we need to count the pieces which send no lines but contribute to the stack, because without them being counted, (i.e. without them there), you get no tsd and no line clear, just a t piece rotating into an empty stack, sending 0 lines.

tst w/o b2b: 3 lines cleared, 6 lines sent. Attack per line=2. So without b2b attack per line, which=attack per piece, is the same for tsd and tst. Therefore we should for a difference, only look at them with b2b.

tsd with b2b: 2 lines cleared, 5 lines sent. Attack per line=2.5=5/2

tst with b2b: 3 lines cleared, 7 lines sent. Attack per line= 2.3=7/3

Therefore tsds have more power per piece than tsts.

Some of the more astute amongst you will have spotted that tspin singles with b2b will have an attack per line of 3, and so theoretically better than ether tsd or tst. However you only get a t piece 1 every 7 pieces, and therefore to tspin single every time is not viable as a strategy.

attack per line=attack per piece x2.5, assuming no help from garbage (this is an openers thread)

[Ravendarksky]

So... is it just an anomaly that no 4 wider (koreanyama does 3 wides) got through to the top 16? What is the reason why skilled players prefer quick tspin doubles to 4 wide middle? Habit?

Essentially I think this can be answered in: 4 wide is usually used for the first 30 seconds only. The best players aren't expecting to win in that time frame and so are more interested in outplaying their opponent over the course of the match -  So they just start as they mean to continue, with some TSpins.

Also... while comboing itself may be easy. Building a middle 4wide is not that easy, and will cost you a match if it goes wrong.

Probably better to tspin at high speed because it's more risk adverse.

[caffeine]

It's slightly misleading to say that caffeine learned how to 4 wide in 10 minutes - it implies he's had no experience of the sort, when I'm sure that he has played/done a lot of research on similar builds such as "playing forever" - caff - if I'm wrong, please say.

Yeah, while I never sat down and tried to do 4-wide Combos before this, I do have lots of experience with 3-wide platforms from doing Perfect Clear setups and ST-Stacking. I also had watched a few TOJ replays where they do 4-wide side stacking, so I had a little background as to how to fit the pieces together to keep the chain going.

I think the biggest take-home message from the vid is that during this particular matchup, the comboer might have a lucky case where he can simultaneously add a Tetris while extending his combo, which is straight up brutal.