Most Skill Based Game

[Panda]

What is the most skill based game you've ever played/seen?


By "skill based", I mean the amount of actual skill and technique that is required to be effective. So this excludes games that are simply level-up based, or games that are just atrociously difficult with no meaning such as QWOP or IWBTG. A game in which even amateurs can take down pros using skill alone. A game in which the learning curve is extremely high and advanced techniques require supernatural amounts of effort and practice.


My #1 vote hands-down goes to Gunz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6YvjFaoZY0


Real-life footage of gameplay and fingers in motion. 1) Gunz utilizes far more keys than the primary six or so required by Tetris, 2) fast-paced combos results in massive keys per second, 3) perhaps the most difficult aspect is the excruciatingly painful timing that is required in the midst of all the speed

Furthermore, the video does not display the most advanced techniques of Gunz, such as Monk Style, or even Triple Butterfly. Techniques which require precise timing by the milliseconds  



Anyhow I was just curious as to how far developers can push the skill-barrier of their games  If you have a ridiculously challenging game in mind, feel free to post it here!

[simonlc]

I'd have to go with Warsow (free game warsow.net). It's similar to Quake 3, but you have to be much faster in reaction, finesse, and thinking.

For those that don't know much about Quake, Warsow has 8 weapons, and you start with only one, which is quite weak on it's own. Players bind each weapon to an individual key. The thing that sets Warsow apart though is the movement. In Quake, and also Warsow there is such a thing called strafe jumping. Some people might call it bunny hopping, but that's slightly different. Mastering this and other movement aspects takes immense training, and play time. It has even given me RSI. There is an extremely active race community that competes for best times on maps at http://warsow-race.net/. Unfortunately their site is down at the moment so you can't browns their stats, but many world record run videos are available at http://www.1337demos.com/demos.

Duel, or 1v1 is the main multiplayer competition, and takes years to be able to even touch some of the medium skill players. Here's an example of a match played by two of the top players in North America. This was a very good game by Lo and makes it seem like the other player is a noob.

[Panda]

I'd have to go with Warsow

Wow, what a fantastic game! Yes I recall Strafe Jumping from Quake games and the like, and it has a somewhat similar shooting mechanism to the Unreal Tournament series.

While I still believe Gunz is an overall more skill-based game due to the extremely precise timing and keys-per-second synchronization, Warsow is definitely superior in terms of weapon versatility, map awareness, player foresight, and sheer accuracy of aim. Strafe jump is certainly impressive as well, but bows down to the Forbidden Step in Gunz


Here is another gameplay footage of Gunz, which shows its own version of Strafe Jump in the form of Flash Step and Wall Climb

[apm10]

Took him around 7 years of experience to achieve this level.

I got pretty good in this myself.

[Extruderx]

I'm sure that the most skill-based game ever is Tribes 2 (not to confuse with Ascend, which is closer to standard modern FPS genre). Tribes 2 is old first-person shooter that is still being played within TribesNext community. The main difference is that every player can move very fast in all three dimensions by using jetpacks, and this makes scoring hits on your opponents very difficult. And your main weapons aren't hitscan, but they fire projectiles with limited speed.

You have to train a lot to predict enemy movements and to fire precisely. I don't play this game now though, because it requires consistent skill to enjoy.

[XaeL]

Netstorm.

Can't find any replays but some players do 4-5pps

Also, skip to 30s:

Lots of RTS's require quite a large level of hand speed and thought... like Starcraft 1 or something.

[qwerty098765]

Weiqi or Go or Baduk or Paduk.

It's a game and you can't argue against the fact it requires skill ^^.

[Agamemnon]

Totally with her on this one. Go by a landslide for me.

[Panda]

Took him around 7 years of experience to achieve this level.

WOW what is that, like 40 keys per second??! Insane... lol I used to think DJMAX was the king of beat games with its 8key synchronization and max levels, but I must say it can't beat 7key 40kps....puts even Microblizz to shame  

though O2Jam does not require the player to react and respond to an online opponent (which tends to drastically complicate things dynamically), it still breaks the chart in terms of visual/mental cognition, ridiculously mechanical execution, excruciating timing that rivals that of Gunz, intensity of focus, and MAP AWARENESS lol. Hell, I'd say it's a potential winner here


As for Tribes 2, though I must respect it's legendary reputation, my mind almost fell asleep after coming back from an O2Jam video lol. Rocket jumping is certainly a twist, but the decreased speed and predictable flight curves of your opponents makes it more of a sitting duck than a standing rabbit  Very noticeable difference in game pace and intensity when compared to Quake or the lethal Warsow. I'd say there's actually less processing and mental execution going on in T2 than say a professional game of Tetris requiring 5pps+ and much faster reflexes.

Netstorm.

Can't find any replays but some players do 4-5pps

Also, skip to 30s:

Lots of RTS's require quite a large level of hand speed and thought... like Starcraft 1 or something.

Ooh Xael, love DDR-type games  But the problem with these games is that while they do require impressive physical reflexes, the mental processing aspect is highly undermined by the fairly predictable note patterns. For instance, I was able to pretty much sightread the video, though I'm not an experienced player by any means.

Some may argue that mental processing and physical reflexes are equal limiting barriers to each other. But I believe mental processing is the true barrier/bottle-neck so to speak. The reason amateurs play slow is not because their fingers are too fat and can't be moved fast enough. It's because they need the time to fully process their moves. Even amateurs can "move" their fingers as fast as Blink, in a purely physical sense. But with the added aspect of mental processing, then it becomes a challenge  So the point of all this was, due to the mild mental processing required relative to O2Jam or DJMAX, the purely physical aspect alone could be achieved fairly quickly with focused practice and systematical routine.


Hehe Risssaa, Go is pretty fun and strategic, read the manga too  But it's difficult in a purely conceptual and strategical sense. There is a difference between actual technical skill (that takes immense physical exertion and painstaking time to achieve) and simply field experience/conceptual knowledge, which is naturally gained over time.

[qwerty098765]

There is a difference between actual technical skill (that takes immense physical exertion and painstaking time to achieve) and simply field experience/conceptual knowledge, which is naturally gained over time.

If you want to argue in such a way ^^...

I vote embroidery racing.
That and handwriting.

And .......... Panda... define "SKILL".

[caffeine]

I think you mean a game with a shallow learning curve. That would be Battletoads, of course.

[benmullen]

By game i think you imply video game, but ill answer in another way anyway a list:

GO
Chess
Checkers
tetris
dr mario
things like guitar hero?  (the skill here is different, more reaction, rhythm and musicality than logic i guess)
probably a lot modern games im unaware of i suppose
nearly anything in real life takes skill and strategy:
baseball
tennis
blah blah blah, you get the idea.

also tihngs that are not games as such but still require skill:
any musical instument
any art
anything i guess
ANYTHING, to be the best at anything would require skill.

[qwerty098765]

I think the things that require most skill...
(Dismissing the 'game' component btw.)
is actually speaking and handwriting.

But ofc we take these for granted.

[Panda]

And .......... Panda... define "SKILL".

By "skill based", I mean the amount of actual skill and technique that is required to be effective. So this excludes games that are simply level-up based, or games that are just atrociously difficult with no meaning such as QWOP or IWBTG. A game in which even amateurs can take down pros using skill alone. A game in which the learning curve is extremely high and advanced techniques require supernatural amounts of effort and practice.

In other words, while Go is certainly a fantastic game, it does not possess the specified raw skill I originally asked for.



And Caffeine, interesting concept of a shallow learning curve, first time hearing it haha. But in the case of Gunz, it is actually a high-plateau learning curve of sorts. Immediately the novice player is forced to learn techniques such as Butterfly just to stay alive, which is apparently quite difficult to grasp at first. Then the amateur player is required to commit more effort to Double Butterfly and Reload Shot, considerably harder. Then professionals pursue the godly Triple Butterfly (jump+slash+block+slash+block+dash+slash+block+land on ground and repeat, all in roughly one second lawl) and Instakill, and some otaku prodigies may even challenge the ungodly Monk Style, which only a few people worldwide have truly mastered due to the literally virtually impossible timing.

While the amount of skill required clearly exponentiates in terms of raw value, the proportional amount contributed based on the player's current level is indeed a high plateau of sorts.



tldr; looking for games with high plateau learning curve based on raw technical skill

[Paul676]

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