Tetris Battle Feedback

[FieryLight]

I completely agree with Paul's second point.  I had full tuning before the update (got it purely from coins) and when you guys introduced more levels to it, I was quite excited.  However, I STILL do not have full tuning and it's really been quite a while now.  My point?  Costs too much, please lower it.  Also, I really like the idea about full control over your DAS and ARR when you've secured full tuning.

I know many others have already pointed this out, but 2 things are keeping me from playing the game:
1) The pop-ups.  So very annoying and teamed with point 2, it's just dreadful.
2) The lag.  I already have the pepper thing disabled for Chrome, but that only make it playable, I can't play as fast as I want to.  If I try, basically every piece is misdropped.  Idk what you can do about it, but something really has to be done about the lag.


Anyhow, thanks for listening and I appreciate you asking of our opinions!

[dhuang413]

The lag.  I already have the pepper thing disabled for Chrome, but that only make it playable, I can't play as fast as I want to.  If I try, basically every piece is misdropped.  Idk what you can do about it, but something really has to be done about the lag.

I agree. Sometimes I still lag terribly in live multiplayer play despite having pepper flash disabled. If you guys could help fix this, that would be great

[Kitaru]

1. More powerful servers, or whatever is needed to make lag almost negligible. You guys have done it before with TOJ, and that was 5 years ago. You can do it now with Tetris Battle.

The problems with TB _are not network-related_. It is performance lag on the local machine. This is not something that will ever be solved by just throwing more money at it. This is a matter of the optimization of the code being run on your local machine. Part of the problem is owing to the general "heaviness" of using Flash as a platform -- proper consideration of how to best optimize may allow for adequate results in spite of the performance overhead, but it's naturally going to be more effort and will never be able to directly match the performance of a native, stand-alone application like TOJ. When working with Flash, I imagine you're just trying to make the code you _can_ change as tight as possible to make up for any potential shortcomings in the performance of code on Flash's side. It's a trade-off in exchange for penetration (nearly everyone has Flash already), ease of use (click this link and play!), lack of additional downloading/installing, etc..

Unless you're asking them to change platforms (i.e., throw everything into the trashcan), this is going to be a potentially difficult issue.

2. Forget free tuning - yes it should be free, but in all games which make money, you need to pay for something. $100 is silly, but $30 or so is fair.

I have to disagree. That's still asking a lot given the content delivered. I am literally in the business of spending exorbitant amounts of money on Tetris, and I would never even consider paying $30 for TB for a fraction of a second. $5~10 is almost in the area of consideration, and is at a price point comparable to other downloadable/f2p games on the same scale of content or value delivered.

Perhaps owing to personal bias, even $5 seems steep for TB. Considering I already paid elsewhere (on TF, of which TB is essentially a downgraded rehash), I'm not particularly keen on doing it again, and again, and again. If something outstanding breaks the chain, I'll gladly reconsider.

3. Get rid of bombs, Sprint 4p, and solid garbage, add in Ultra mode, and  make Sprint 4p synchronous.

You criticize people for asking for the game to be thrown in the trashcan, and then ask for the game to be thrown in the trashcan. Half of these issues discard the actual make-up of Tetris Battle, and nearly all of the other half make it more like Tetris Friends. How many constructive changes will we make until we just have Tetris Friends? Why not just start with that as our baseline again?

The technical reason for the Bomb system is that there needs to be a known playfield baseline for the opponent replays to maintain sync. If there are unexpected holes suddenly popping up, the "re-player" cannot handle or interact with them. Unless there is a consistent supply of garbage rows at the bottom of the playfield that is supplied with the same pattern between initial recording and reuse as an opponent, there isn't anything that can be done short of reactive AI.

For TB Arena? Sure, that should have _never_ had Bombs tacked onto it. I suppose I forgot that was a use case since we still have Tetris Friends Arena, which fulfills the same purpose and is not weighed down by baggage.

5. Once you've sorted out the lag issue for 40fps, make it 60fps, like it really should be. It's a bit bad when the main tetris game for most peopl can't run on a normal fps level for people even with high power computers....

See #1.

Hell guys, do you want TTC to do anything about their game or to push them away from our community by making pointless comments saying "oh well it's destined for the trash can, no improvements can be made". Every game can be improved, even if it means making drastic changes to the code, or even replacing it if that's what's needed. But at least tell them what they need to replace it towards.

Bear with me while I vent and play a bit of devil's advocate: why is it counterproductive to ask they throw everything in the trashcan when that's essentially what they do every "product cycle?" Face it -- TTC has been in the business of repackaging Tetris Worlds for the past eleven years, with a handful of promising improvements weighed down by a whole crapton of baggage and useless shuffling. We're asking for them to re-implement token content that has been around for 10~15 years and acting as if we should be glad we got those scraps back.

I feel like this thread is largely a formality. The major issues are mostly self-evident by this point. People aren't likely to focus on low-hanging fruit -- they're going to voice their concerns with the core issues that detract from their experience.

[Paul676]

my point was against those being destructive in their criticism, rather than constructive. Telling them to throw certain things in the trashcan and focus on other things which you specify is constructive. Just saying throw it all in the trashcan is destructive.

1. Get the code better then, if that means using java or something else rather than flash.

[PoochyEXE]

My sole major complaint about Tetris Battle is the tuning. It is the ONE thing that keeps me from wanting to play. The problem is twofold:

1. If I don't pay, I'm at a disadvantage against those who did pay. Sure, I can spend hours upon hours of grinding out the coins to get all the upgrades so that I can play for real, but it wouldn't be worth the time investment. Playing while handicapped is dull and boring since I can't push my skills to the limit. It'd basically be work, but with an pay rate of a couple cents an hour.
2. Even if I do pay, I'd feel like I have an unfair advantage over those who didn't pay. Then any victory would feel hollow, as if I bribed the referee.

Removing the pay-to-unlock option would be an improvement, but then it just means whoever has spent more time playing has an advantage, which is still lame.

For me, the main appeal of Tetris is a test of my skills, and a way to push my skills to the limit. The tuning system dilutes the skill element, which in turn removes my motivation to play. And for that reason and that reason alone, I will sooner toss $20 worth of coins into a Tetris: The Grand Master 3 arcade cabinet rather than spend even a single penny on Tetris Battle.

[myndzi]

OK, here are the rules for this thread. They will be applied to all posts below mine:

1) Post constructive criticism or your post will be deleted
2) Don't argue with each other over things not directly related to the subject matter (that is, gameplay and desired changes)

[Kitaru]

my point was against those being destructive in their criticism, rather than constructive. Telling them to throw certain things in the trashcan and focus on other things which you specify is constructive. Just saying throw it all in the trashcan is destructive.

1. Get the code better then, if that means using java or something else rather than flash.

Please understand that you have, once more, offered "throw it in the trashcan" as a potential avenue for improvement.

[tk198]

What's all this about paying for tuning? I got full tuning without paying a cent. I just played a bit each day (30-60 mins a day) over a longer span of time.

[PoochyEXE]

But as I mentioned, I also find playing while artificially handicapped to be incredibly boring. It'd feel like 30-60 minutes a day of work at a McJob, not 30-60 minutes of fun.

It's a catch-22 if I don't pay: I don't want to play at an artificial disadvantage. But I also need to play at an artificial disadvantage before I can play without it.

Also, I realize games need to make money. But if you make a game I like, I'll gladly throw some money your way. I do it all the time with the Humble Indie Bundles. If I liked Tetris Battle, I probably would've bought a skin or something just to say "I like what you're doing, keep it up." But since I feel like TB is trying to nag me for money, I'm disinclined to give any. Much like how I might pick up the lunch tab for a friend (without owing them anything), and leave a 25% tip if I liked the service, but if some bratty kid comes up to me and nags me for a dollar, I won't give them diddley-squat because I don't want to reinforce their obnoxious behavior.

[tk198]

Fair enough. For the first few weeks/months, I just went on TB each day to get the daily bonuses. By the time I really started playing, I already had some upgrades. That's a tedious but possible compromise for the points that you've stated.

[PoochyEXE]

"Tedious" being the key word there. I want games to be fun, not tedious. Any way I look at it, the tuning system sucks out all the fun and replaces it with tedium.

Addendum: I just found out that sometime since I last tried the game, they've added other sorts of performance-enhancing items. This, of course, means there's even less skill involved. So better make that TWO things keeping me from wanting to play.

[myndzi]

J_MAC, I admire you for coming back.

You've touched on a subject matter that gets a lot of discussion, a lot of arguing, and generally no specific results. I imagine you know that and you're just looking for things you may not have known for further consideration. What would help this become a productive discussion is to try and define exactly what you want from Tetris Battle. The source of most of the conflict here will be that people have differing ideas of what the game should be, and they'll never agree on those points. If you can manage to put the focus on the kinds of things that you actually will want to take action on, you may get improved results and have a more valuable interaction.

With that in mind, there are a number of really good Tetris players out there. When you're skilled at something, it's extremely frustrating to be thwarted by things out of your control. That's why you'll hear a lot about tuning and lag. On the other hand, if you gave these guys free reign, you'd have Nullpomino. You'll have to work to separate what people want because it's frustrating not to have and what people want because it's not their preference in gameplay style.

TB's primary purpose has to be to make money; it needs to at least be able to support its cost of development, hosting, bandwidth, etc. To that end, I personally am willing to pay a moderate one-time fee on the order of $20-30, a modest subscription fee on the order of $1-3, or simply put up with ads and such. I don't know how the rest of the people here feel about those numbers, but I do know that if you ask anyone here they will demand certain things before they're willing to pay up, namely: gameplay they like and are familiar with and a fast, responsive interface. If you give them those things, they will like and support you however they can.

A ready and robust system of ranking yourself against others is also a big plus. Many Tetris players are highly competitive, and simply giving them goals to strive for can be enough to keep them playing longer than they meant to. You will need to keep a leaderboard clean of cheated scores or nobody will pay any heed to it, ruining the purpose.

Gameplay points you probably won't get away from needing to implement for this to happen: live multiplayer with spectating that doesn't degrade the gameplay and the ability to manage rooms (for tournament play, etc.), change on attack garbage, fast and intimately customizable DAS/ARR rates, and some form of reasonably balanced garbage settings.

Gameplay points that will not be in favor: items of any kind, maps of any kind, purchasable benefits of any kind, forced wall spam.

--- Video advertising ---

Regarding advertising, online video advertising is annoying to just about everybody, but I don't believe it has to be. The problem is that advertisers try to force people to endure the ads, and so their development efforts are forced on things that make the experience cringe-worthy. For example, video playing at max volume by default before you have a reasonable amount of time to adjust it. Lack of mute goes hand in hand with this. Extremely long videos. People leave websites if they don't load in a couple seconds; a 30 second video is much too long for an interstital ad.

Then there's variety. There just isn't a huge market for online video advertising (yet?), so you wind up seeing the same ad over and over and over again. I can't imagine this is effective for the advertiser, but who knows, maybe it is. I would be much more inclined to watch ads all the way through if they were varied.

Finally there is the case of technical difficulties. There are various problems you can have trying to set up, configure, or get browser stuff working right. Each time you restart the browser, you have to sit through that 30 second, same as last time, ad all over again. You're already frustrated that you can't get the thing working, and the advertisement just stokes your rage. This is not a pleasant experience for your users.

Both of these can be solved by something simple, such as tracking by session when and which ads have been shown and laying off in pathological cases.

The popup things when you log on are annoying, but at least you only have to deal with them once (caveat: see browser problems like above). If they make you money, keep 'em I say.

--- Asynchronous gameplay ---

You'll get a lot of hate about the ghost replay system, but I think it's a good thing. It allows players to play with variety at any time without the unreliability of other people being involved. I'm not a huge fan of the bombs, but I like that they make it easier to get the solid garbage down lower, which is one of the annoying things about the method (difficulty of withstanding spikes).

There is a way to have stackable garbage and asynch play/ghost replays. Say, for example, that you use the 30% garbage hole change probability method, maybe limiting it to something like 5 holes in a row max. You can generate a repeatable sequence of garbage, but the problem is that when you reach the bottom of the replay, things will get desynched if there isn't enough garbage. You can alleviate this with a bottom "hidden area" in a few ways. One possibility is to always have at least five lines of garbage and refill it indefinitely. Another is to allow pieces to go "through" the floor into garbage holes that are coming up, but provide no score/reward for it, thus keeping the replay in synch and relenting a bit on massive combos and the like when the replay has the upper hand. An idea to think about, anyway.

--- Replays ---

One of the really cool things about Tetris Battle is the ability to share replays on Facebook. This is a strong feature for a whole bunch of reasons including competition, brand awareness, or even simply reminding people that the game exists. I actually can't find any replays on my wall at the moment because I tend to block things like that out of habit, and TB is no exception. Its ease of use is also a big weakness - it can be easily abused by people to the point of saturation. I don't recall if the replay viewer is an embedded thing or if it takes you to the TB game itself, but an embeddable viewer would be really great.

Things you might do to make it easier to use the sharing of replays for Good: allow or even force players to customize the message. This may already exist, I don't quite know, but I do know that when I was seeing replay posts they all looked generic text. If the feature exists, make it prominent and encourage players to describe why they're sharing a thing.

Also, combining multiple shares in a session or overwriting previous ones in an easy way would help cut down on the spammy aspect; providing something like a gameplay "highlight reel" in a single, compact, post seems like it would strike a nice balance to me.

--- Latency compensation, handicapping ---

I've written in exquisite detail on this topic elsewhere, including considered problems and their programmatic solutions. PM me if you would like to see.

Handicapping can be a useful feature, but it must be quite clear and optional. It can enable people of differing skill levels to have an enjoyable game with each other, but it can also be a source of frustration by muddying the balance of things. People will resent being forced to play modes with handicapping, but if you make it unobtrusively available - or perhaps use it in unranked rooms, the kind that friends who differ greatly in skill might join in to play - it could be worthwhile.

As far as latency goes (true network lag here), there are things that result from lag, spikes, disconnections, players quitting (intentionally or accidentally), and so on that are frustrating. In my opinion, the goal should be to ensure that games are fair and disadvantages are given to the party who actually has the lag.

One common feature of Tetris games without a single authoritative server-side state is that you have to 'trust the client' to know when a player loses. This is problematic for two reasons: lag and cheating. With lag, the player with the larger ping will tend to be behind everyone else in the game, and when games come down to really close matches way up at the top the lagger has a significant advantage - if both players top out around the same time, the lagger wins. This is frustrating for other people, especially if they clearly had an advantage. Cheating is fairly uncommon but it's obviously undesirable.

It takes server resources to maintain and validate games, but if you really want quality of play, it's worth it. Luckily, server-side state keeping goes hand in hand with keeping replays and anti-cheating measures. Multiplayer replays in a dedicated player (not encoded video, but an embedded, reduced Tetris engine) would be pretty godly.

--- Cheat prevention ---

You can't prevent a player from screwing with the game on his computer, but you can prevent that tampering from ruining other peoples' fun. The server should hand out piece sequences and validate them, validate lines cleared, attacks sent, garbage taken, and order of death. Don't reveal information to the client that the player should not have, and don't trust the client to be honest about anything. I know this involves hard work and resources, there's no way around it.

--- Platform ---

Flash is a mainstay of interactive media on the web, but that's changing. It is within our capability to produce a slick, responsive, HTML5-based Tetris engine that meets all the requirements of Tetris Battle's interface as well as the desires of the players in these forums. To me, this is close to the Holy Grail of Tetris, so I am programming it myself (slowly). I wouldn't mind if somebody else did it, though. You are welcome to my knowledge and even my code should you want it, but I can't really see a ground-up rewrite of TB in a new technology. Still, the technology is there, and the break from Flash would salve a lot of doubts that some players have had about TF, TB, and any future "Tetris games written in Flash." Of course, a stand-alone executable is the ultimate, and it shouldn't be that hard to integrate such an application with Tetris Battle's backend network stuff, which would give the pros what they want and still allow them to contribute to the player base of Tetris Battle itself.

--- Conclusion ---

Sorry for novel. I hope you get something useful out of this.

Also, I realize games need to make money. But if you make a game I like, I'll gladly throw some money your way. I do it all the time with the Humble Indie Bundles.

I want to believe that there are enough of us like this to suffice. I bought the first three humble bundles at the default price (which is usually higher than the average by a good bit) and haven't even played them, I want it to work that bad.

[Kitaru]

</thread>

Slick post, myndzi. +1

RE: everyone wanting Nullpomino: personally I just want to see something along the lines of "Tetris Friends but it doesn't lag" first. That's a pretty good baseline to work from in terms of being able to start addressing what else may need adjustment in terms of game mechanics.

[XaeL]

Originally, Tetris Friends for Facebook was written in Java.
It was terribly laggy, so they switched to flash.
It was less terribly laggy, but still terribly laggy.

The problem is was not Java, and it is not Flash.

Get your programmers/visual artists/etc to write a leaner, faster running implementation in flash. I've played intense graphical games at 60fps easily in flash, but tetris battle runs sluggishly and has random frame rate drops at random moments.

[bigwig]

Keep handicap toggleable and transparent. Allow people to join games or a room by sharing a link like in TF. Even if you need to keep the 1-100 thing, make sure there's a hidden or semi-hidden ELO for 1v1. Even if it only ranks you by your friends, that would be enough to make this website happy (well, it won't really, but it should).

$1-$20 is fine. People are used to buying convenience and access now. No one sees tuning purchases as purchasing just the option menu, social games have trained people to think of it as access to a platform.