NullpoMino League Beta has begun!

[iphys]

Thanks, so it's like maybe "expected" kpt for the way you arranged the pieces if you had done so with perfect finesse?

[Paradox]

ekpt is there so you can see how much you need to lower your kpt to stop wasting keypresses

if your kpt is 3 and your ekpt is 2.7, it means that with proper finesse you could lower your kpt by .3

in that sense it can be very useful. Your ekpt also fluctuates based on where you placed your pieces. You can lower your ekpt as well by being more selective when it comes to how many times you rotate your pieces or move them. If you do a lot of unnecessary double taps +rotate that can make your ekpt go up.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]On NML with ELO it is a bit different (unless you add some sort of time decay back down to 1500), and there is a chance players can just sit with their high rank and refuse to play ranked, but at the same time with a website profile couldn't they just do that and refuse to play altogether?[/quote]

adding a decay is a possible option but the plan is currently to reset elo every season to your division.

For example, with the current parameters for promotion if you were a silver player you would be reset to 1600 in a new season. From there placement matches would put you back on the rankings and determine your spot.

[Rosti_LFC]

adding a decay is a possible option but the plan is currently to reset elo every season to your division.

For example, with the current parameters for promotion if you were a silver player you would be reset to 1600 in a new season. From there placement matches would put you back on the rankings and determine your spot.

I actually think that makes the effect even worse in the short term. If I have a win streak that gives me a really awesome rating and I'm worried about losing it, then without seasons I have to not play again ever to keep it - I doubt most people really care enough to quit forever. On the other hand if I get an awesome rating and there's a new season in two weeks, then I just have to not play for two weeks and then presumably that awesome rating is immortalised somewhere on my profile forever. I guess in the long run it at least stops the system being screwed up with all the top spots being inactive players, but I think in the short run it makes things worse, and I'd feel some sort of decay or reward system for playing would help a lot more.

I feel you've copied the SC2 ladder system somewhat but neglected how much of a crucial role bonus pool (which is the opposite of decay but to basically the same effect) actually plays in forcing players to be active if they want to fight to the top of their division. (And tbh I'm surprised you haven't just wholesale copied it because the maths behind it works pretty well and with openly posted division tiers you don't have to hide MMR either)

Also how does promotion work in a way that means getting reset when you're seemingly a handful of Elo points off being promoted doesn't completely suck? And what (from my brief looking and understanding of the system there doesn't seem to be anything) keeps divisions tied together in terms of skill?

Also I know I made this exact typo in literally my previous post but aaahhh it's Elo not ELO people.

[Corrosive]

I'll sign up later. looks good

[Paradox]

Actually I don't completely like the sc2 system. The only reason there are points and bonus pool on sc2 is to make you feel better about yourself. You win more points than you lose so you feel like because your number goes up you are progressing. The reality is that your mmr could be the same while your points go up at a constant rate.

Then when it comes to the bonus pool that is just an incentive for you to want to come back if you haven't played in a while (without thinking , oh gee there is no way i can catch up to the top spots without an extra boost)

So basically the sc2 system is to give you make you feel like you are doing better when you aren't, whereas showing your Elo that only goes up over time if you are actually improving is more stressful. At the same time it is more truthful which I personally prefer. Going with the sc2 system may add activity to the game though which could be a good tradeoff, but then we should also hide Elo.

Players maintaining a high rating them stopping only matters at the very top of the Elo rankings. Resetting the points to the standard Elo for your division would reset their scores. So basically if you have a high Elo it would have to be recent (during the current season). Not only that but you would have to stick around throughout the season in order to get your Elo high from the inflation.'

Lets take the beta for example, If blink stopped right now at his current 1633 Elo he wouldn't remain at the top. Elo across the board increases as people continue to play and there will be people with 17-1800s eventually.

[Rosti_LFC]

Actually I don't completely like the sc2 system. The only reason there are points and bonus pool on sc2 is to make you feel better about yourself. You win more points than you lose so you feel like because your number goes up you are progressing. The reality is that your mmr could be the same while your points go up at a constant rate.

This is only true because of bonus pool. If you ignore bonus pool then your ladder points are almost identical to your MMR plus some off-set that depends on which league you're in. The only time your offset ladder points don't equal your MMR is if you've not played enough games (so your MMR isn't that accurate anyway) or if you've rapidly improved as your MMR tends to take longer to adjust than ladder points do.

Your points go up over time because your ladder points = MMR +/- offset + accrued bonus pool, and that last figure is always going to go up over time if you stay active. But if you know how many points you have from the bonus pool (reasonably straightforward if you know the age of the division and how much pool you have left) and can find out your league offset (used to be a pain below Masters, but not any more now that tiers are removed for this season and onwards) then you can work out your approximate MMR with no problem.

IMO the point of bonus pool is so you can't just get Rank 1 and then be able to hold it without playing for the rest of the season. You're forced to play to zero bonus pool to finish high because otherwise other players will use bonus pool to overtake you. This is why bonus pool is accrued at a faster rate in Master and GM (because players in those leagues in general are more active, and it forces them to be even moreso), and why it is accrued at a slower rate in 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 arranged teams (because it would be really hard to find the time to get to 0 bonus pool for most people otherwise). It's not there because of "incentive to play if you've stopped for a while", because the only reason you need to catch up to players above you in the first place is because they've used their bonus pool and you haven't.

Lets take the beta for example, If blink stopped right now at his current 1633 Elo he wouldn't remain at the top.

He wouldn't, but everyone of all skill levels have just started at 1500 so the rating system is currently fairly broken in terms of matching points and skill, and will take a while to sort itself out properly.

Elo across the board increases as people continue to play

Lol, what, source for this please? There's been rating inflation in chess but there are sensible reasons for why that's happened outside of the rating system. There's absolutely nothing in properly implemented Elo that means that ratings increase across the board. If everyone starts out at 1500 then ratings will spread out over time initially, but people will then find a level that they settle at, especially at the extremities where points become harder to gain.

If a 2400 player gets a few lucky wins against another 2400 player to take them to 2500 (or whatever, I'm making numbers up here), then they can basically claim top spot for a while. If they don't play, and don't feed their falsely-inflated-above-their-real-skill points back into the system, then they'll stay at 2500. And it'll be difficult for any 2400 player to jump themselves up to 2500 because they'll need a similarly lucky run against a similarly good player, and they'll then have to stop playing once they get there so they don't just fall back down. In the middle things don't matter so much, but when you get to the top handful of places those lucky runs of games that take you up a little bit past where you should be are a big deal. And irritatingly that's where you least want people to quit just because they feel they temporary have a better rating than usual. You'd get it with Tetris DS all the time.

Elo will naturally find your skill. If you ever have a flukey run of results that bring your Elo rating above your real skill level, then you're better off not playing ranked matches until the season resets. Otherwise all you're going to do is take that inaccuracy back out and fall back to the level you should be.


Also, resetting everyone's Elo periodically isn't a great thing IMO, because you essentially totally upset the rating system for what could end up being a significant length of time with a varied pool of players. If I'm at 1500 and play 10 games against a player like Blink at 1500 then it decimates my rating compared to playing someone who sucks and is also at 1500. You're destroying any accuracy in the rating system at regular intervals and relying on it to sort itself out quickly, and I'm not so sure how fast it does that. With a strict match-making system (can only play closely ranked opponents) it could take a long time to fix itself.

[Antifate]

I'd like to report a problem I've been having with this new client. The game portion of the window (the left side) spontaneously crashes (turns gray). The right side of the screen functions correctly. I can join/leave games even when I can't see what the heck is going on (the sound still works). Anzu also has this problem.

req java halp

[Paradox]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Lol, what, source for this please? There's been rating inflation in chess but there are sensible reasons for why that's happened outside of  [/quote]

I didn't mean to say across the board i just meant the range of elos increases. In the beginning everyone is 1500 but eventually people get to 1700-1800. If you just stop playing those elos are still going to get higher and you will be overtaken.

[Shizi]

sick

[Rosti_LFC]

If you just stop playing those elos are still going to get higher and you will be overtaken.

No, they won't. At all. They'll increase to a point, but they'll stop fairly quickly (if they don't then your rating system is either shit or geared badly or both, because it's not actually reflecting skill). If you get to the point where your Elo rating reflects your skill (which you should do) and then have a lucky run that inflates it above it, then you should stop playing, because statistically you're only going to lower it by playing.

I kind of worry that you've created a Frankenstein's monster of Elo combined with SC2's system without enough real understanding of the workings behind them, and not enough consideration for how Elo actually works with things like divisions, the way the matchmaker works, 5-game league placement and being reset every couple of months. (Note that SC2 doesn't use Elo for MMR at all - it works in a different way, and MMR is retained when seasons are reset)

[myndzi]

If the rating system is Elo, it should be used as Elo is intended to be used. Messing with rating systems without understanding them is like trying to write your own crypto - smarter people have done a better job than you, so take their advice to heart.

Soft drop should be 1g if it exists at all, or tunable to 1g.

[Chopin]

I don't play much, but just a few comments to make ;o

League ;Facebook; is awesome.
Layout is much more user-friendly.
Gameplay and new skins look great.
180 spin is more sensible now.

My opinions:

• Soft Drop should be 1G or even slower - Creates a sense of balance especially with combos, spins, and timing
• Combo table/send needs to be looked over - Early combos are not as strong as they need to be
• Incoming garbage should have a .4 delay or so similar to TF - Creates depth with timing attacks
• Garbage queue needs to have a bar as well as a large counter display - Eventually, line send animation would be nice too
• B2B garbage may be better with the 'B2B' send being independent from main attack - Not in same row
• Maybe Perfect Clears are too weak?
• T-Spin Mini should be sending lines
• Polymer T-Spins need to have detection
• Chat should say when someone has made a 'public' room
• Obvious: modified sounds, higher resolutions of the client, fixed chat

NM League looks awesome

[caffeine]

I kind of worry that you've created a Frankenstein's monster of Elo combined with SC2's system without enough real understanding of the workings behind them, and not enough consideration for how Elo actually works with things like divisions, the way the matchmaker works, 5-game league placement and being reset every couple of months. (Note that SC2 doesn't use Elo for MMR at all - it works in a different way, and MMR is retained when seasons are reset)

IMO the point of bonus pool is so you can't just get Rank 1 and then be able to hold it without playing for the rest of the season. You're forced to play to zero bonus pool to finish high because otherwise other players will use bonus pool to overtake you.

[...]

Also, resetting everyone's Elo periodically isn't a great thing IMO, because you essentially totally upset the rating system for what could end up being a significant length of time with a varied pool of players.

So how exactly do you think it should work? I agree that the bonus pool is really just a "positive" point decay system. It causes inflation, which forces players to remain active in order to keep their rank. However, due to that inflation, you need to reset the points every once in a while. If you don't, they lose their meaning. Players won't know what a good score to aim for is since it's constantly getting higher. So, what's your proposal exactly?

One thing that would work would maybe be Glicko-2. You just set a benchmark for a player's sigma where it needs to be low enough before his rating can appear on leaderboard. (The rating's sigma is just how reliable it is-- you need to play more games before your rating is considered reliable. If you don't play for a while, it begins to increase again.)

[StS]

To be honest, I don't see a problem with time decay. It would be helpful if someone who has a better understanding of Elo and other rating systems could shed some light on why you would use a bonus pool rather than a time decay.

[Rosti_LFC]

So how exactly do you think it should work? I agree that the bonus pool is really just a "positive" point decay system. It causes inflation, which forces players to remain active in order to keep their rank. However, due to that inflation, you need to reset the points every once in a while. If you don't, they lose their meaning. Players won't know what a good score to aim for is since it's constantly getting higher. So, what's your proposal exactly?

Simple decay back to 1500 (assuming it only decays down then this will have the side-effect of either slowly inflating or deflating the entire points system - I'm too tired to work out which right now) or remove people from the ladder if they're inactive for X amount of time.

Or, alternatively, do what they do on SC2 and have a hidden rating system and open points system that are very closely linked, but separate enough that you can reset one without fucking with the other. Then you can quite easily have something like a bonus pool because it'll be working the exact same way. You've just got to work out how you want the two systems to relate to each other, and how fast or slow you want bonus pool to be accrued vs how fast you can gain rating.