TD (C-spin) vs. DT Cannon [POLL]

[larrytetris]

I personally like the TD better. Here are my reasons.

1) Faster execution.
2) Better leave.
3) Can follow up into Imperial Cross or Fractal or more TSTs/TD/etc. very naturally.
4) Takes advantage of SZ starts, which are hard to deal with in other openings.
5) Fewer rows needed for execution -> less chance of being spiked out by, say, a PC and a TSD
6) More flexibility with TSD shape as the second spin
7) Very high chance for perfect clear in 3 bags.

[fumen]110@1dB3hbG3ibG3gbI3hbH3gbJ3gbG3pbAIwTAPVQhEw+?kaEFb0KBFbUVEvz8CA7eCtaBFgBAwNKA0G88AQC1dD2oBAA?1dB3nbA3obA3gbI3hbH3gbH3ibA3lbTplbAwNnAp588AwN8?8AQLlkDlO7rDFbMwDBcudDn488AQubNEFbsYEvXxCANdB3n?bA3obA3gbI3hbG3gbAAH3gbA3gbG3wNgb4NgbQp3Ngb4NAA?Qp6Nlbt2OdAJoo2AjCpTASoynDqwceEFbcEE5oo2Azo2hEQ?BAAAZdB3obA3obG3ibG3bcAwNoA0H98AQLlaEwXRoDFbEcE?voo2AU9UTASI4dDS07xDloo2Ao3krDZdBAobAAobGAibAAw?bQpwNnbQpwNnbQpwNnbQpwNwbAAALeQpwNnbQpwNnbQpwNn?bQpwNvbAAA5dFAbcdMB7eAAAA[/fumen]

Versus

[fumen]110@tdB3obB3kbB3gbH3hbH3ibH3gbI3gbG3pbAoUbA3no?2AsOprDzoo2AmXyTASobrEl1geEpXxCA7eCFbBdQPnAOH98?AQpkrD4Ou4DsuWvEl8ESASod0Cze88AQOc/Dloo2AUN2BAA?wNKAke88AQC1dD2oBAA[/fumen]


Honestly, the only argument I can see for DT cannon is that it can transition into a 4-wide, but again you'd be losing 7 rows' worth of combos, and it's a side 4-wide so it's kind of risky.

[caffeine]

My main gripe with the DT cannon is that it leaves an overhang, which usually needs fixing with either a softdrop or platform clear (both taking time). That is unless you convert it into another T-Spin setup or platformed Tetris. However, in both those cases, you're ignoring the downstack.

C-Spin can be risky though if you don't get the right pieces. I've found DT cannon to be a little safer for this reason.

[larrytetris]

C-Spin can be risky though if you don't get the right pieces. I've found DT cannon to be a little safer for this reason.

A good player shouldn't force a setup. I do not pull c-spin all the time for this reason.

[caffeine]

Supposing you start to do it and it doesn't look like it'll work out, what do you do instead?

[massi4h]

I guess I just feel more comfortable with DT Cannon, but depending on my start pieces I usually pick either one or TKI 3. I feel like if I get the right starting pieces for DT cannon, there's about 2 different combinations of all the pieces that will stuff it up, whereas with C-Spin there seems to be about 4 or 5.
But yeah I never really looked at it like that, C-Spin is a pretty good starter.

[SirJeivus]

Generally, I avoid using fixed openings such as TD or DT, but if I had to choose I'd prefer DT, given that at times I fail at constructing the wall kick necessary for the first T-spin for the TD. But in both cases, they send larger amounts of straight garbage (6 + 5 for TD, 4 + 7 for DT) which most often gets thrown back at me really quickly. Having 5 or more rows of straight garbage can be turned into what I call a ttcombo, or a TSD+Tetris combo. If there are 4 lines of straight garbage, at least one has to debate whether to Tetris it right off, do double/triple breakdowns or turn it into a ttcombo.

As one improves though, a player will move away from fixed openings and focus more on improvising a start and preserving a certain stack ratio, whether it would be kennyboy2's 7-2 or Blink's 6-3 (these players didn't invent such stacks, but are players that I've noticed that religiously follow this stack pattern). But, going back on track, TD for sure has more options after the first TST, but DT to me is a lot stabler and there is less chance of an awkward stack.

[larrytetris]

As one improves though, a player will move away from fixed openings and focus more on improvising a start and preserving a certain stack ratio, whether it would be kennyboy2's 7-2 or Blink's 6-3 (these players didn't invent such stacks, but are players that I've noticed that religiously follow this stack pattern). But, going back on track, TD for sure has more options after the first TST, but DT to me is a lot stabler and there is less chance of an awkward stack.

I know exactly what you're talking about! TKI3 seems to go into the 7-2 split very naturally. I'm pretty bad a 6-3, but I can do 7-2.

However, I've definitely had PC opportunities show up while following up the TKI opening. It'd be interesting whether kenny would prefer to take the PC or continue stacking upwards (seeing as how 2 TSDs = 1 PC in line sends, and he can probably pull off 2 TSDs faster).

[ZeroT]

I personally like the TD better. Here are my reasons.

1) Faster execution.
2) Better leave.
3) Can follow up into Imperial Cross or Fractal or more TSTs/TD/etc. very naturally.
4) Takes advantage of SZ starts, which are hard to deal with in other openings.
5) Fewer rows needed for execution -> less chance of being spiked out by, say, a PC and a TSD
6) More flexibility with TSD shape as the second spin
7) Very high chance for perfect clear in 3 bags.

Honestly, the only argument I can see for DT cannon is that it can transition into a 4-wide, but again you'd be losing 7 rows' worth of combos, and it's a side 4-wide so it's kind of risky.

Okay, as this topic was clearly directed at me >:D time for my response

1) Speed? - With my particular signature DT cannon which I've been practicing vigorously for over a year

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@ldF3hbZiF3ibYiF3JwgbYissE3Iwhbus8eC3IwibQp?Iw8eYikzA31lgbRpIw8eYilz1lgbQpJw8eZikzpbA4G[/fumen][/div]

I can execute very quickly with my best full completion of in somewhere around 5.6s on np ages ago, not that I really time these anymore, but with my more structured signature DT you can recognize it quicker and even use it with a higher variety of starting bags.

2) Leftover hang is very disadvantageous? - With as much practice I have with my DT cannon, I have noticed certain trends in which I deal with the hang.

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@LelzoblzE3hbH3ibG3pbA4G7eDO/c2kB9/clfBMeG3?ibG3hbH3hbcD8eF3pbAAA7eDqfBfWBZaBAAA[/fumen][/div]

Both TSD or a tetris are quick followups that pack a punch.

3) SZ Start? - My setup is one of the best true setups to use when you get a troublesome SZ start.

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@XeQpibkzjbRpiblzibQpkbkzpbA4G7eC+hBqiBJdB[/fumen][/div]

4) Random bonuses? - Quite frequently with my setup you run into fun little things like this while executing it!

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@VcF3jbF3hbH3ibI3gbH3hbH3ibH3gbI3gbH3gbI3gb?I3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbH3pbN7i7eN1IcdYcF4ANNc1Scd9?A5aBNwclVB/aB8fB6gBbfBAAA[/fumen][/div]

In conclusion, TD start might match up well vs the standard western TD Cannon, however my DT signature is vastly Superior in every way >:D

[massi4h]

Oh yeah the DT Cannon I use normally can lead to a TST afterwards as well. So I get TSD TST TST TSS and then I'm back to normal

[MarioThePhenom]

i feel like the triple double is more natural to me, i dont know who else feels that way but when someone tells me to do a dt, i kindof pause for a second, and figure out what im trying to do. they send equal line clears so im gonna chose td over dt.

[Profane]

i literally just starting learning the Cspin start and the DT Cannon Start.  i was shown the setup ZeroT just showed and i'm liking what im left with from it.  the Cspin has been considerably easier for me to pull off but i've had messier ending fields.  honestly i don't know which i like most just yet since i haven't really gotten to use them against players of my similar skill level.  

My biggest 'go to' start was the 180 thing that Paul showed me once.  im not sure what it's called, but i can execute that and the TKI 3 very quickly.

[perfectclear]

I dont have a preference. TD can end with a pc, DT has more continuations. both can be cancelled. dt can be cancelled using an L+S (right side) or a J+Z (left side)

[toppingoutivan]

I have preference for TD because I usually forget to rotate the piece for the DT cannon after soft drop D:

[Barneey]

I prefer Cspin, it looks cooler, and it's easier to perform in my opinion.
Why isn't this a poll >:c

[larrytetris]

Okay, as this topic was clearly directed at me >:D time for my response

I understand each of the arguments you're making, and admit that your DT cannon has crushed me a number of times (    ). However, I wanted to consider the setups for a third-person player so to speak.


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
1) Speed? - With my particular signature DT cannon which I've been practicing vigorously for over a year

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@ldF3hbZiF3ibYiF3JwgbYissE3Iwhbus8eC3IwibQp?Iw8eYikzA31lgbRpIw8eYilz1lgbQpJw8eZikzpbA4G[/fumen][/div]

I can execute very quickly with my best full completion of in somewhere around 5.6s on np ages ago, not that I really time these anymore, but with my more structured signature DT you can recognize it quicker and even use it with a higher variety of starting bags.
[/quote]
Again, I understand that you're very good at executing DTs. But for a player who is just learning:

[fumen]110@7eaKXIOQBkgBvhBlWBhnBjdBfdB5ZBDNB2YBkOBAwN?ZARr78AQIerDjY0TASYlNEFb0sDJGuaEIBAAAVcpFAzI8nE?OBAAAdcpZAxno2Ar4RbEUs7/Dloo2AFb+2BDj88AZAAAA9b?pOAyno2AFbWBEFq2TAylAAA9cqVAzno2AFb+YEPq2TASYJX?EPJ98AZAAAAVhqMA0no2AFb+2BXoAVBtqqMA1no2AFb+2BX?oAVBtKPVA2no2AFb2zDB8STASYJXEPJ98AZAAAAVcpBAWAA?AAdcpNA3no2AFb+2BDj88AZAAAA9bpOA4no2AFbWBEFq2TA?ylAAA9rqVA5no2AFb+YEPq2TASYJXEPJ98AZAAAAFwqOARo?78AwnoRBDl0SAylAAAFQPWAxp78AwnoRBoCaoDFbEmDy3tT?AylAAAAwNAA[/fumen]
TD: 12 pieces for setup, 11 keystrokes for completion

[fumen]110@7ecDXI+hB8gBqiB/jBZdBVXBOVB6MB5UBjTBkNBVcp?FAzI8nEOBAAANcpYAxno2Ar4RbEUs7/Dloo2AFb+2BXoAVB?NapOAyno2AFbWBEFq2TAylAAANWqVAzno2AFb+YEPq2TASY?JXEPJ98AZAAAA1bqNA0no2AFb+2BDj88AZAAAAdmqNA1no2?AFb+2BDj88AZAAAAdrqVA2no2AFb+YEPq2TASYJXEPJ98AZ?AAAAFrqNA3no2AFb+2BDj88AZAAAAFLPVA4no2AFb2zDB8S?TASYJXEPJ98AZAAAAVcpBAYAAAANcpMA5no2AFb+2BXoAVB?NapPARo78AwnoRBsI/dEFr4AANgqWAxp78AwnoRBzX/dEFb?EmDy3tTAylAAA1lqOARr78AwnoRBDl0SAylAAAdwqOAxs78?AwnoRBDl0SAylAAAdQPWARu78AwnoRBoCaoDFbEmDy3tTAy?lAAAAAA[/fumen]
DT: 12 pieces for setup, 14 keystrokes for completion

Conclusion: For a player who executes DT and TD at equal pieces per setup, neither is advantageous. They will both require the T from the 3rd bag to complete the second T-spin. Thus, a player would need to go through the same number of pieces. However, at the same number of keystrokes per second, the execution of the TD is faster, and this even neglects the delay time of waiting for the T pieces to DAS to the wall.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
2) Leftover hang is very disadvantageous? - With as much practice I have with my DT cannon, I have noticed certain trends in which I deal with the hang.

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@LelzoblzE3hbH3ibG3pbA4G7eDO/c2kB9/clfBMeG3?ibG3hbH3hbcD8eF3pbAAA7eDqfBfWBZaBAAA[/fumen][/div]

Both TSD or a tetris are quick followups that pack a punch.
[/quote]

Executing the TSD breaks the b2b. With a TD leave, you can execute TSDs without breaking b2b.

Furthermore, In both cases, the player is required to soft drop. Take a look at this:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
3) SZ Start? - My setup is one of the best true setups to use when you get a troublesome SZ start.

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@XeQpibkzjbRpiblzibQpkbkzpbA4G7eC+hBqiBJdB[/fumen][/div]
[/quote]

Again, two soft drops make it relatively inefficient. Also, what if you get an SZIT opening?


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
4) Random bonuses? - Quite frequently with my setup you run into fun little things like this while executing it!

[div align=\\\"center\\\"][fumen]110@VcF3jbF3hbH3ibI3gbH3hbH3ibH3gbI3gbH3gbI3gb?I3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbH3pbN7i7eN1IcdYcF4ANNc1Scd9?A5aBNwclVB/aB8fB6gBbfBAAA[/fumen][/div]
[/quote]

Yes there can be random bonuses with DT. But with a DT, only in 1 column can you get a TSD bonus. However with a TD, there is only 1 column (far left) that would NOT offer access without breaking b2b.