Expert HD Mode (Tetris Friends)

[Kitaru]

Zaphod, your design philosophy occasionally has hints of sharing a fatal flaw with with that of the guideline -- it attempts to patch the problem in a convoluted way rather than take a more direct approach to the problem. I know it can be tempting to ground yourself in the familiar and "fix" a broken mechanic, but sometimes you have to step back and think "is there something better I can use to replace it outright?"

[Maske]

wohhhh.. I deleted my reply by mistake when modifying  
it's painful for me to write in unaccustomed language again.

[chopin]

I think that each player might have their own targeting system, meaning that each player's cross-hair rotates on its own and is independent from other players. So that means if everyone did TKI 3 T-Spin Double setup at the same time in the beginning, it all won't get sent to 1 player because the cross-hairs are on different people. I'm not sure about the rest of how the system works, but I think this part is true.

[Kitaru]

@Maske: Oh no! I wish I knew about it before I hit refresh, I could have saved it. :s

Anyway, I am intrigued to hear someone suggest something resembling player classes or "characters." I think the implementation you suggested is a bit too one-dimensional, though. Also, with each "style" so rigidly divided, I think it leaves the door open for a lot more complaining about one style being too strong or someone's favorite style being too weak or whatever else. I think the concept is interesting, but I don't think this would be the best way to use it necessarily.

@Chopin: Fractional. Garbage. :p

[mippo]

@ Chopin:

But when does the crosshair rotate?
What about when all the players play at different speeds?
It's exactly because you can't predict when people are going to send stuff
that people are getting flooded. I think there's not much targetting of people involved anyway, I think a lot of the time people are in an "unlucky seat" because of difference in speed of players and timing of the crosshairs.
Just try figuring out a 3P room where garbage will be equal with people going at different speeds

Either just accept that there's a bit of luck in the current system which I personally don't mind, or just go for a fractional/garbage to all system.

[zaphod77]

They will refuse to consider fractional garbage.  I'm well aware that it is ideal, but it is simply not an option they will ever consider.

They seem to want people to be able to target. At least with my suggestion people will HAVE to attack the people they aren't targeting to hit the people they are.

There are two other systems I can think of.

1) every player has one target that changes when they knock out the targeted player.  This is also luck based, because the best player could be targeting the second best, or the worst.  This is obviously bad.

2) everyone crosshairs move at the same time always.  This in theory will remove some of the luck, but people can still delay their attacks and target one specific person. and if everyone but the targeted person teams up, the targeted person will be unable to knock out anyone else, and thus lose, because he wont be able to focus his attacks on the same person, and everyone else is getting attacked less.  Clearly bad.

And then there's my idea.

3) people have to send x garbage total before their crosshairs move. Say 4. Sure if everyone sets up a t-spin triple and aims it at the same person, that person is going down. unless he manages to set up a huge combo or other killer attack while they are all attacking the other players and trying to set up their attack on him. His combo neutralizes the incoming garbage storm, and then continues hitting the people back.

Also note that garbage used to cancel incoming garbage will not count, though outgoing garbage that gets cancelled after the fact will.

Still think revenge targeting is viable?

[Magnanimous]

They will refuse to consider fractional garbage.  I'm well aware that it is ideal, but it is simply not an option they will ever consider.

Really? I can definitely see it happening if they ever adopt send-to-all. (The alternative would be to either round up or round down line sends, and... no. Just no.) I understand why they're using the targeting system right now--casual players can directly see their sends having an impact on someone else, so it's more personal--but send-to-all is the obvious solution for balanced tournaments

Still think revenge targeting is viable?

I've never understood why revenge targeting was thought of as a good idea... It just seems to overcomplicate things. And games in which you press certain keys to send garbage to player X (TetriNET, I think?) are just as bad. I really think send-to-all fractional garbage is the way to go: the strategy aspect of Tetris should stay with your pieces.

[zaphod77]

By revenge targeting i mean the players ganging up on the better one and all targeting him to knock him out, so that the person who sent the most lines gets 5th place.  Happens fairly often under the current system.

With current system, people delay their attacks to target the person they want. the other people get less garbage, and can set up their attacks against the lone player easier.

With my idea, the person people are trying to team up on will get a break in the action, and can use this time to set up a very powerful attack.

[meow]

Really? I can definitely see it happening if they ever adopt send-to-all. (The alternative would be to either round up or round down line sends, and... no. Just no.) I understand why they're using the targeting system right now--casual players can directly see their sends having an impact on someone else, so it's more personal--but send-to-all is the obvious solution for balanced tournaments

I've never understood why revenge targeting was thought of as a good idea... It just seems to overcomplicate things. And games in which you press certain keys to send garbage to player X (TetriNET, I think?) are just as bad. I really think send-to-all fractional garbage is the way to go: the strategy aspect of Tetris should stay with your pieces.

TetriNET(2) sent the same amount of garbage to everyone without any reductions. Only the 'add' specials allowed you to target a certain player.

I like send-to-all but fractional garbage leads to long-drawn out games. Fractional isn't necessary!

There are 3 ways to go imo:
1. fast and random targeting cursor (garbage messiness similar to 1v1, least fair out of the 3 but not a problem if the cursor moves fast)
2. send-to-all no reduction (fastest gameplay, most exciting, not for the faint of heart)
3. send-to-all fractional (speed of game is close to the average of all players, messy garbage causes everyone to downstack and add less producing long games)

[zaphod77]

Simplest way i can think of to handle fractional garbage is that your first line goes to the player on the right, the next line goes to the player after, etc.  This algorithm is not dependent on the number of players in any way. lines you use to cancel incoming garbage will not count.

As players drop out, their spot gets skipped, and garbage continues to get divided evenly, and yet fractions don't need ot be tracked.

what the heck? sorry about that. major forum glitch there.

[Kitaru]

Zaphod. Stop.

[zaphod77]

Really? I can definitely see it happening if they ever adopt send-to-all.

Which they will never do.

They are hopelessly attached to that targeting cursor, despite it's unfairness.

[KeroKai]

I can't say I've ever really noticed intentional targetting from players? At least, not during early-mid-game. I can understand however when people target players who are setting up combos early game though.

Yeah occasionally the good player will get knocked out due to complete chance but I wouldn't describe that as revenge targetting.

Has your experiences been different or something?

@ Chopin:

But when does the crosshair rotate?
What about when all the players play at different speeds?
It's exactly because you can't predict when people are going to send stuff
that people are getting flooded. I think there's not much targetting of people involved anyway, I think a lot of the time people are in an "unlucky seat" because of difference in speed of players and timing of the crosshairs.
Just try figuring out a 3P room where garbage will be equal with people going at different speeds

Either just accept that there's a bit of luck in the current system which I personally don't mind, or just go for a fractional/garbage to all system.

I find it more amusing how if people played at the same speed and all sent the stuff over with the same piece. The first person sending over garbage would get screwed in a 3P game with the said system. xD

P1 Tetris to P2
P2 Tetris to P3 - Garbage cancellation
P3 Tetris to P1

P2 cancels. P3 sends 4 lines over to P1.

We can experient with this tbh. To see whether the target is always on another individual in such a rotational system rather than occasionally getting 2 on 1.

[Deek314]

So...when are they gonna make this mode available for beta testing?

[ManOfMiracles]

So...when are they gonna make this mode available for beta testing?

Not soon. http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2677