New garbage thread for vs

[Anonymous]

Personally, I think the new garbage system is way too slow. I was playing a 5P vs game, and it seemed like the games take way too long, and I think there are some serious flaws in the system depending on what styles people play.

In my experiences, after the initial tetrises and everyone is about halfway up, everyone goes into "downstack mode" and lines aren't being added as fast. The problem is, garbage isn't being added fast enough.

What happens is that most of the people just downstack in 5P games, and maybe 1 person will try to send garbage to everyone else. Essentially, what happens is that the other 4 people in the game will downstack till they all reach the floor, and the 1 person who adds garbage is slowly getting pushed up (since he isn't downstacking as fast). And eventually, the person giving garbage will die. And the one who downstacks the fastest usually gets first or second place. Stuff happens, and eventually someone wins. But my point is, that you can usually get 1st or 2nd if you only downstack, which I think needs to be changed.

Obviously, as Corrosive said, the best players can downstack and add lines at the same time, but if you can get 1st or 2nd by just downstacking, there is no incentive to try to add garbage to others.

One way the original garbage system dealt with slow games was the 4 consecutive singles = 1 garbage line.  I think this quickened the pace of the games; however, I think it also skewed the gameplay for more downstacking. And some people didn't like this.

I have one suggestion. I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but maybe we could implement this into the garbage system: the less garbage you send, the more garbage you get. This way, the people who only downstack receive more garbage, while people who send more garbage while downstacking will receive less garbage. I'm not saying the garbage difference should be massive, but I think it should be enough to create an incentive to give adds. However, this might be difficult to do and be hard to balance. And, it favors people who can get tetrises quicker and disfavors slower players (sorry jdapple    ).

Obviously, this new garbage system is trying to promote fairness between all players by giving everyone equal garbage, however, there is an inherent flaw; it does not take into account different gameplay styles.

There's another problem I see, but I'm not sure how you would solve it. Let's say there is a 5P game. Everybody except one person stacks up for 2 tetrises.  After everyone but the one player sends the 2 tetrises, everyone has 8 lines of garbage (or however much, it's not important). What is important is that the person who didn't send any garbage can now just block drill his way down while the other players must clear the extra 2 or 3 lines that they built up after the tetris. Furthermore, if you are stacking tetrises and you misdrop, then you are in a much worse situation than the person who didn't do anything. So, the player who did nothing is now beating everyone else because his stack is lower than everyone elses.

Hope it's not tl;dr

[caffeine]

If games are going by too slowly, just move the curve up one notch (tetrises send 2 and instead of 1 in a 5 way game, for example).

[meow]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Personally, I think the new garbage system is way too slow. I was playing a 5P vs game, and it seemed like the games take way too long, and I think there are some serious flaws in the system depending on what styles people play.


In my experiences, after the initial tetrises and everyone is about halfway up, everyone goes into "downstack mode" and lines aren't being added as fast. The problem is, garbage isn't being added fast enough.[/quote]
the current garbage system is designed to feel like a 1v1 game. in 5P, this means the speed of the game is averaged between all 5 players. for example, say P2 is 20APM and P3 is 40APM, the speed of the game is the same if P2 and P3 were both 30APM. i think the reason the game feels too long to you is because of the players you are against. adding an extra player that is slower than the average speed of the players will slow the game down.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Obviously, as Corrosive said, the best players can downstack and add lines at the same time, but if you can get 1st or 2nd by just downstacking, there is no incentive to try to add garbage to others. [/quote]
i don't find this to be the case. when playing with everyone around my speed, if i go for downstacking only without adding many lines, i find it harder to win. the incentive to add garbage is there, and it is to gain an advantage over the others

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]One way the original garbage system dealt with slow games was the 4 consecutive singles = 1 garbage line.  I think this quickened the pace of the games; however, I think it also skewed the gameplay for more downstacking. And some people didn't like this.

I have one suggestion. I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but maybe we could implement this into the garbage system: the less garbage you send, the more garbage you get. This way, the people who only downstack receive more garbage, while people who send more garbage while downstacking will receive less garbage. I'm not saying the garbage difference should be massive, but I think it should be enough to create an incentive to give adds. However, this might be difficult to do and be hard to balance. And, it favors people who can get tetrises quicker and disfavors slower players (sorry jdapple    ). [/quote]
see above for incentive for adding.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Obviously, this new garbage system is trying to promote fairness between all players by giving everyone equal garbage, however, there is an inherent flaw; it does not take into account different gameplay styles.

There's another problem I see, but I'm not sure how you would solve it. Let's say there is a 5P game. Everybody except one person stacks up for 2 tetrises.  After everyone but the one player sends the 2 tetrises, everyone has 8 lines of garbage (or however much, it's not important). What is important is that the person who didn't send any garbage can now just block drill his way down while the other players must clear the extra 2 or 3 lines that they built up after the tetris. Furthermore, if you are stacking tetrises and you misdrop, then you are in a much worse situation than the person who didn't do anything. So, the player who did nothing is now beating everyone else because his stack is lower than everyone elses.

Hope it's not tl;dr
[/quote]
let's assume that it is better to sit and wait for the lines to be added to you before making your move. everyone else can do this as well... and i think if everyone did do this except for 1 player stacking up, it will be clear to see who really is disadvantaged and i am betting it is those who sit and wait.

back to the example with 4 players stacking while 1 does nothing. the idle player can dig his way down but so can the people who tetrised. the idle player has 8 lines to dig through while the player who tetrised only has 6 lines plus 2-3 extra lines which are easily clearable compared to the extra 2 lines of the idle player where the holes are randomly distributed (the 2 holes are also never lined up!!)

the misdropping problem is one that has to be solved... by the misdropper. while the misdropper is definitely disadvantaged, the players who did tetris and didn't misdrop are still ahead of the idle player.

just think about a 1v1 game: the player who stacks always has an advantage over the player who sits and waits to counter the garbage, unless he/she stacks very badly or misdrops often. the problems mentioned aren't really problems with multiplayer in my opinion. they occur in 1v1 as well and i believe they are due to the player's skill.

[jujube]

Personally, I think the new garbage system is way too slow. I was playing a 5P vs game, and it seemed like the games take way too long, and I think there are some serious flaws in the system depending on what styles people play.

In my experiences, after the initial tetrises and everyone is about halfway up, everyone goes into "downstack mode" and lines aren't being added as fast. The problem is, garbage isn't being added fast enough.

that has a lot to do with who you're playing against. some players are always sending garbage whether they're upstacking or downstacking, and they're going to win most of the time.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
What happens is that most of the people just downstack in 5P games, and maybe 1 person will try to send garbage to everyone else. Essentially, what happens is that the other 4 people in the game will downstack till they all reach the floor, and the 1 person who adds garbage is slowly getting pushed up (since he isn't downstacking as fast). And eventually, the person giving garbage will die. And the one who downstacks the fastest usually gets first or second place. Stuff happens, and eventually someone wins. But my point is, that you can usually get 1st or 2nd if you only downstack, which I think needs to be changed.
[/quote]
it's true that if only one person is trying to send a lot of garbage, then the 4 others should be able to handle it. things change a lot when most of the players are trying to send. if you made tetrises more powerful or other clears less powerful, then downstacking would rarely do any good, even if you were exceptional at it. the game would lose some depth.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Obviously, as Corrosive said, the best players can downstack and add lines at the same time, but if you can get 1st or 2nd by just downstacking, there is no incentive to try to add garbage to others.
[/quote]
yeah, and like i said before it's different when more of the players are strong.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Obviously, this new garbage system is trying to promote fairness between all players by giving everyone equal garbage, however, there is an inherent flaw; it does not take into account different gameplay styles.
[/quote]
rated games would be more dynamic if there was garbage canceling and rewards for T-spins and combos. people complained about those things though.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
There's another problem I see, but I'm not sure how you would solve it. Let's say there is a 5P game. Everybody except one person stacks up for 2 tetrises.  After everyone but the one player sends the 2 tetrises, everyone has 8 lines of garbage (or however much, it's not important). What is important is that the person who didn't send any garbage can now just block drill his way down while the other players must clear the extra 2 or 3 lines that they built up after the tetris. Furthermore, if you are stacking tetrises and you misdrop, then you are in a much worse situation than the person who didn't do anything. So, the player who did nothing is now beating everyone else because his stack is lower than everyone elses.
[/quote]
there's risk/reward when it comes to stacking up. if you don't take the risk you'll never be able to pressure your opponents with garbage. but if the other players are only downstacking without sending garbage then couldn't the player that misdropped recover? if nobody is pressuring you then you can afford to make mistakes. if you actually get like 18 lines of garbage, and you haven't overstacked tremendously to top yourself out, the other players must be doing more than downstacking with singles.

[Anonymous]

the current garbage system is designed to feel like a 1v1 game. in 5P, this means the speed of the game is averaged between all 5 players. for example, say P2 is 20APM and P3 is 40APM, the speed of the game is the same if P2 and P3 were both 30APM. i think the reason the game feels too long to you is because of the players you are against. adding an extra player that is slower than the average speed of the players will slow the game down.

You're probably right that adding slower players is what slowed down the game. However, I find this to be a big problem. If I am playing in a 5P game with all crappy people, I should be able to top them out easy. However, each tetris I send adds only one line to them, making the game significantly harder, than if I was actually playing 1v1. I think the only time the game feels like 1v1 is when all players are of equal skills which isn't necessarily bad since it shouldn't be exactly like 1v1. However, the games shouldn't feels sluggish, even if you are playing slower players.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
i don't find this to be the case. when playing with everyone around my speed, if i go for downstacking only without adding many lines, i find it harder to win. the incentive to add garbage is there, and it is to gain an advantage over the others
[/quote]

But here is the problem. Let's say there are two people in a 5P game. The first player is better than the second player. The first player will go for more adds, but the second player just goes blockdrilling. Every once in a while the second player will get an extra line more than player 1, but the second player will still outlast the first player despite being worse, unless the game becomes 1v1 between these two people.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
let's assume that it is better to sit and wait for the lines to be added to you before making your move. everyone else can do this as well... and i think if everyone did do this except for 1 player stacking up, it will be clear to see who really is disadvantaged and i am betting it is those who sit and wait.

back to the example with 4 players stacking while 1 does nothing. the idle player can dig his way down but so can the people who tetrised. the idle player has 8 lines to dig through while the player who tetrised only has 6 lines plus 2-3 extra lines which are easily clearable compared to the extra 2 lines of the idle player where the holes are randomly distributed (the 2 holes are also never lined up!!)

the misdropping problem is one that has to be solved... by the misdropper. while the misdropper is definitely disadvantaged, the players who did tetris and didn't misdrop are still ahead of the idle player.

just think about a 1v1 game: the player who stacks always has an advantage over the player who sits and waits to counter the garbage, unless he/she stacks very badly or misdrops often. the problems mentioned aren't really problems with multiplayer in my opinion. they occur in 1v1 as well and i believe they are due to the player's skill.
[/quote]

I should have specified earlier, but in this case, I was strictly talking about 5P. When you say that the player who does nothing gets 8 lines, I think you assume that he gets them all at the same time. However, he can start downstacking immediately after the first round of tetrises, which should only add 4 lines to him. Meanwhile, the other players are still stacking up for their second tetris. And by the end of the second round of tetrises, the 4 players who are stacking up will have 8 lines of garbage, but the person who did nothing will only have about 4-5.

if you made tetrises more powerful or other clears less powerful, then downstacking would rarely do any good, even if you were exceptional at it. the game would lose some depth.
yeah, and like i said before it's different when more of the players are strong.

I'm not saying that we should eliminate downstacking. I think it's a very important part of the game. But I think it's a major problem when the person who ONLY downstacks can easily win 1st or 2nd place. And this is what needs to be changed.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
rated games would be more dynamic if there was garbage canceling and rewards for T-spins and combos. people complained about those things though.
[/quote]

It's too bad we can't add some of these, but we probably don't want an exact copy of TOJ.

I think the main issue is that most of the people are trying to downstack and are depending on the others to add garbage until they get into a 1v1 situation. Then, when the situation becomes 1v1, they will be in good position to top the other player out. Because of this, not a lot of garbage is being added to anybody which causes long games. I don't think this is a problem for higher tier players, but it definitely is prevalent among the lower tier players.

[jujube]

I think the main issue is that most of the people are trying to downstack and are depending on the others to add garbage until they get into a 1v1 situation.

i'm guilty of that  

what i see when i'm playing against a roomful of people that would beat me in 1v1 is each one of them gets more garbage than i could send them by myself in 1v1. for my style of play i think this is to my advantage, because i'm more likely to win a downstacking race than a tetrising race or a tetrising vs (me) downstacking race. 5p is a different beast and it's really hard to make the gameplay similar to 1v1. the thing i feel most strongly about is that players should have enough time to work their magic and keep the game going if they do what they do well, whatever that is. those custom 5p games with full garbage to all players are no fun to me when the games only last 10 seconds. i know that's more extreme than what you're talking about though.

you would probably have a similar experience to 1v1 if you had 1v4, with full garbage going from player 1 to each of the other 4, while each of the other 4 would send quarter garbage to player 1. that way player 1 could actually put a good amount of direct pressure on other players and have more influence on the flow of the game, while the other 4 players wouldn't have to worry about attacks from each other and could work as one unit to attack player 1, putting pressure on player 1 as a team. this is the closest thing i can think of to replicating 1v1 gameplay while adding more players.

[jdapple]

lol!  thanks anon for sticking me in parenthesis!  *hides under cover*
I guess at the end many people will realize that they have to do some downstacking especially when they can't clear tetrises twice as fast!  They'll just have to find a balance and change their strategies!  lol!  k that prob didnt help ;(

[meow]

But here is the problem. Let's say there are two people in a 5P game. The first player is better than the second player. The first player will go for more adds, but the second player just goes blockdrilling. Every once in a while the second player will get an extra line more than player 1, but the second player will still outlast the first player despite being worse, unless the game becomes 1v1 between these two people.
I should have specified earlier, but in this case, I was strictly talking about 5P. When you say that the player who does nothing gets 8 lines, I think you assume that he gets them all at the same time. However, he can start downstacking immediately after the first round of tetrises, which should only add 4 lines to him. Meanwhile, the other players are still stacking up for their second tetris. And by the end of the second round of tetrises, the 4 players who are stacking up will have 8 lines of garbage, but the person who did nothing will only have about 4-5.

I think the main issue is that most of the people are trying to downstack and are depending on the others to add garbage until they get into a 1v1 situation. Then, when the situation becomes 1v1, they will be in good position to top the other player out. Because of this, not a lot of garbage is being added to anybody which causes long games. I don't think this is a problem for higher tier players, but it definitely is prevalent among the lower tier players.

I agree with you that downstacking is a safe option. This is because of the nature of >2 player matches where in order to win, you must outlast ALL your opponents. This is the reason why the downstacker comes in 1st or 2nd, because he/she can outlast the others.

Here is how I see it...

reckless stacking to add < concentrating on downstack < efficient adding and downstacking

Downstacking is a safer option and will give you a decent result in 5P games. Any player could choose to switch to this style to beat the reckless adders. However, the one who adds and downstacks efficiently will beat the one who only concentrates on downstacking. This is what everyone should be aiming to do in a 5P game. Note that this assumes everyone is playing at the same speed. I base this on my own experience of 5P games where I tend to lose more when I go for downstacking and not adding.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I'm not saying that we should eliminate downstacking. I think it's a very important part of the game. But I think it's a major problem when the person who ONLY downstacks can easily win 1st or 2nd place. And this is what needs to be changed.[/quote]
I don't think it's a major problem because I believe this should be the case (see my position on the 3 styles). The fact that the downstacker wins in these lower tier games is because new players can't pull off the 3rd style well.

As you said, the problem is not prevalent in the high tier games. Shouldn't we base the game around a high level of play instead of trying to accommodate the lower level players who haven't mastered vs yet?

[Anonymous]

what i see when i'm playing against a roomful of people that would beat me in 1v1 is each one of them gets more garbage than i could send them by myself in 1v1. for my style of play i think this is to my advantage, because i'm more likely to win a downstacking race than a tetrising race or a tetrising vs (me) downstacking race. 5p is a different beast and it's really hard to make the gameplay similar to 1v1. the thing i feel most strongly about is that players should have enough time to work their magic and keep the game going if they do what they do well, whatever that is. those custom 5p games with full garbage to all players are no fun to me when the games only last 10 seconds. i know that's more extreme than what you're talking about though.

you would probably have a similar experience to 1v1 if you had 1v4, with full garbage going from player 1 to each of the other 4, while each of the other 4 would send quarter garbage to player 1. that way player 1 could actually put a good amount of direct pressure on other players and have more influence on the flow of the game, while the other 4 players wouldn't have to worry about attacks from each other and could work as one unit to attack player 1, putting pressure on player 1 as a team. this is the closest thing i can think of to replicating 1v1 gameplay while adding more players.

I'm not a fan of 10 second games either. I think you made a good point that players should have enough time to "work their magic" whatever it is. I think that if you're fast, you should play fast. If you're smart, you should play intelligently. If you can downstack quickly, then you should downstack. But, when you play, don't only do one skill, try to incorporate many skills.

I agree with you that downstacking is a safe option. This is because of the nature of >2 player matches where in order to win, you must outlast ALL your opponents. This is the reason why the downstacker comes in 1st or 2nd, because he/she can outlast the others.

Here is how I see it...

reckless stacking to add < concentrating on downstack < efficient adding and downstacking

Downstacking is a safer option and will give you a decent result in 5P games. Any player could choose to switch to this style to beat the reckless adders. However, the one who adds and downstacks efficiently will beat the one who only concentrates on downstacking. This is what everyone should be aiming to do in a 5P game. Note that this assumes everyone is playing at the same speed. I base this on my own experience of 5P games where I tend to lose more when I go for downstacking and not adding.
I don't think it's a major problem because I believe this should be the case (see my position on the 3 styles).
The fact that the downstacker wins in these lower tier games is because new players can't pull off the 3rd style well.

I agree that the best play style is efficient adding and downstacking. There is a problem though. Learning how to downstack while adding garbage to others is difficult to learn. It's much easier to learn how to downstack to the bottom until it's 1v1 or close to 1v1, and then just build tetrises, which is what many people do. For this reason, I think the garbage system should encourage players to add more garbage while downstacking.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
As you said, the problem is not prevalent in the high tier games. Shouldn't we base the game around a high level of play instead of trying to accommodate the lower level players who haven't mastered vs yet?
[/quote]

I think it's important that the game be based around everyone, and not just the high level players. If you only cater to the high level players, then you are disregarding the majority of the players who aren't as high level.

[clincher]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I think it's important that the game be based around everyone, and not just the high level players. If you only cater to the high level players, then you are disregarding the majority of the players who aren't as high level.[/quote]
That is like saying Tetrisfriends should have slower DAS because the majority of the players can't handle it. What meow said makes sense I mean aren't we all aiming to be high tier player?
I also think that 5p games are all about downstacking but not the extreme of clearing only singles and sending 0 garbage, if you don't downstack you're gonna die simple as that

[zaphod77]

When the best option for a player is to just wait and drop the first piece after the initial attack from the other players, something is wrong.

I'm not sure how to fix this, though.

[caffeine]

When the best option for a player is to just wait and drop the first piece after the initial attack from the other players, something is wrong.

Why on earth would that be the best option? Say there are three players, and your two opponents both clear tetrises while you don't do anything. Everyone one plays exactly 60TPM (except you until the first garbage is sent). After ten seconds, you have twice as much garbage as your opponents do.

I skimmed over this thread, and it appears as though anonymous is trying to say downstacking is cheap or something. This is no different for Blockbox than it is for any other VS Tetris game I've ever played. What are you suggesting?

[Anonymous]

That is like saying Tetrisfriends should have slower DAS because the majority of the players can't handle it. What meow said makes sense I mean aren't we all aiming to be high tier player?
I also think that 5p games are all about downstacking but not the extreme of clearing only singles and sending 0 garbage, if you don't downstack you're gonna die simple as that

I don't see how it is like saying TetrisFriends should have a slower DAS. I'm not saying that we should restrict higher level players to even out the game at all. In fact, I would say that I'm saying the opposite. I'm proposing that we change the garbage system so it favors those who add more garbage, while penalizing those who just try to downstack as fast as they can; though not so much that it would make everyone just build up tetrises. This way, lower level players will learn to add more garbage while they downstack. Because currently, I see many players in 5P games who will just downstack without adding until it is 1v1. Also, I'm not saying that there should be no downstacking, just that players should attempt to add garbage more while downstacking. It would be no fun if everyone just built up huge stacks and then tetrised eachother to death.

Why on earth would that be the best option? Say there are three players, and your two opponents both clear tetrises while you don't do anything. Everyone one plays exactly 60TPM (except you until the first garbage is sent). After ten seconds, you have twice as much garbage as your opponents do.

I was specifically talking about 5P games.

Let's say there is a 5P game. Everybody except one person stacks up for 2 tetrises. After everyone but the one player sends the 2 tetrises, everyone has 6 lines of garbage, and the player who did nothing has 8 lines. However, the player who did nothing can immediately start blockdrilling after the first round of tetrises. Meanwhile the other players must get the second tetris and clear the extra 2 or 3 lines that they built up after the  first round of tetrises before they can start clearing any garbage. And by the time they get down to their garbage, the player who did nothing will be much lower than the others. So, the player who did nothing is now beating everyone else because his stack is lower than everyone elses.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
I skimmed over this thread, and it appears as though anonymous is trying to say downstacking is cheap or something. This is no different for Blockbox than it is for any other VS Tetris game I've ever played. What are you suggesting?
[/quote]

I'm fairly new to the Tetris scene as the only other Tetris game I played before this was TetrisFriends on facebook (ugh  ) so I could be wrong about the whole thing.

I'm not saying that downstacking is cheap. However, I think that when a player only downstacks and depends on others to add lines, then it becomes cheap. As stated earlier, by pure downstacking a player can easily get 1st or 2nd place in a 5P game, even if that player is playing against stronger players.

[jujube]

I'm not saying that downstacking is cheap. However, I think that when a player only downstacks and depends on others to add lines, then it becomes cheap.

it's no more cheap for the downstacker than it is for the attacker. the attacker has less incoming garbage and can keep on attacking. if you're attacking wildly and overstacking then you have to make some changes in your approach to multiplayer. you might be able to overstack at the beginning of the game if you're fast enough, but after that you're in the same boat as everybody else.

the best players in any ffa multiplayer tetris game know how to downstack (among other things). it's a skill that you can't neglect.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
As stated earlier, by pure downstacking a player can easily get 1st or 2nd place in a 5P game, even if that player is playing against stronger players.
[/quote]
if someone is actually getting first place without sending any garbage, the other players are definitely not strong. i know i agreed that i could get into a 1v1 situation if i did a lot of downstacking (and only if i did it very well), but i didn't mean that i don't send any garbage. i also don't usually win those games.

if you wanted to play for 3rd place among people around your rating, you could probably do that while only downstacking without sending garbage. but then think about the situation you'll have when there are 3 players left. you're continuously getting twice as much garbage as the other players who only get garbage from each other. if you can actually get through all that garbage in a timely matter then you don't deserve to be knocked out. if one of the other players is overstacking and can't handle garbage from one person, then that player does deserve to be knocked out.

[clincher]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I don't see how it is like saying TetrisFriends should have a slower DAS. I'm not saying that we should restrict higher level players to even out the game at all. In fact, I would say that I'm saying the opposite. I'm proposing that we change the garbage system so it favors those who add more garbage[/quote]
And this players are high tier just because they add a lot?
I agree in some of your points but I don't think theres a good solution it like this in every tetris game, if they wanna win they have to add, if they don't then they'll never win so whats the problem?