New garbage thread for vs

[zaphod77]

Lets say we have 5 players

2 of them actually know how to downstack and add at the same time. These players should get 1st and second.

WE have the downstack guy, who's plan is to simply downstack until it's a 1v1 game, and then start adding when his tetrises will actually send large amount of garbage.

We have 2 players who alternate between tetris building and downstacking, depending on their garbage height.

Now the game will tend to drag on a bit, because no one is quite mounting enough pressure to kill anyone, because the downstacker guy isn't doing any adding.  It slows down the good players, because they have less lines to downstack with, so they send less lines to the others.  THey have to place more pieces to send their lines.  And the other two start getting out of synch, spreading out the garbage adds more, which of course makes it easier on the downstacker, who rapidly clears each single of garbage as it appears.

The two other guys start letting their stack get higher, so they can add more lines.  This naturally gets them knocked out, but they will usually managed to add a few more lines before they go.  

At this point, the downstacker guy is the farthest from topping out.  Now that we are down to 3 players, the downstacker guy is in prime attacking position, because he's got a low stack.  a tetris will send more than 1 line now.  So now he decides to quickly whip out a tetris or two, and sometimes knocks out a better player.

This is what people are complaining about.

Not everyone sees this happen.

When everyone plays like it's a 1v1 game, then it's not a problem.

When everyone can add and downstack at the same time, it's not a problem.

When less than half of the players can do this, is when it happens.

I'm not saying that downstacking is bad at all.

The problem is deliberately NOT adding while downstacking is a better option, because it baits the lesser players into attacking more, while giving the better players less ammo.

Now, what if downstacker guy was simply playing possum, and in fact knows how to add whiel donstacking after all?  He just got himself first place by not adding.

[jujube]

i still don't really understand. you say the player who downstacks with singles slows the game down. a player that's truly better than the downstacker would take advantage of that and continue attacking, and all the while the downstacker is getting more garbage than the other players. why not look at what each player is doing wrong? take the first player that gets knocked out. this player is only getting 3/4 the garbage that would come in 1v1, because the downstacker isn't adding. so why is it not this player's fault he or she was knocked out? it happened because of overstacking or neglecting garbage.

and in your example with 3 players and one of the better players is near the top, how on earth did that happen? if the player is better he or she can downstack at least as fast as the downstacker, and hasn't received as much garbage. it's more likely the better players are at the bottom and the downstacker is at the top. downstacking with only singles isn't fast. you typically leave more junk on top of the garbage and make your stack jagged, which makes it more likely you'll stack up over a future garbage hole. if you watch the best block survivor players, they're not just making singles.

[meow]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Lets say we have 5 players

2 of them actually know how to downstack and add at the same time. These players should get 1st and second.[/quote]
i wouldn't say they would always come 1st and 2nd, it depends on how well they add.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]The two other guys start letting their stack get higher, so they can add more lines.  This naturally gets them knocked out, but they will usually managed to add a few more lines before they go.  [/quote]
don't agree, they're not receiving much garbage at all and can simply tetris away until the downstackers make a mistake and die.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]At this point, the downstacker guy is the farthest from topping out.  Now that we are down to 3 players, the downstacker guy is in prime attacking position, because he's got a low stack.  a tetris will send more than 1 line now.  So now he decides to quickly whip out a tetris or two, and sometimes knocks out a better player.[/quote]
i agree, this happens. but the mistake here is from the 'better' player. he/she only needs to play a little bit safer while adding and the downstacker has NO chance. however, if the downstacker was a good player in the first place and started sending tetrises earlier, he/she would have won and the game would have finished quicker.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]This is what people are complaining about.

Not everyone sees this happen.
[/quote]
i've never seen this happen to good players. i'm interested in knowing which good players this happens to.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
The problem is deliberately NOT adding while downstacking is a better option, because it baits the lesser players into attacking more, while giving the better players less ammo.[/quote]
it's not the better option unless your adding is much much worse than your downstacking. the lesser players die because they can't clear what they have built or they made a mistake. downstacking might be a better option for many players because it is safer, but won't win you games. all it does is delay your death slightly which gives you a better ranking among similarly skilled players who killed themselves. as for the 'less ammo', everyone prefers no garbage sent to them so they can continuously tetris away. most people add more with a clear field than one where they dig through garbage.

[zaphod77]

Okay just played a bunch last night, and learned a few things.

1) i'm wayyyy too slow.
2) even at my slow speed, i pulled off a few second place finishes in 5 player games when i waited 15 seconds before dropping my first piece.
3) this stunt ONLY works when there are 5 players.

While the pure downstacker is clearing his garbage with singles and the occasional double, the person who is downstacking and attacking at the same time is clearing them with doubles and triples, and sometimes even a few tetrises.  TO do so, he must use more pieces to clear those lines, which takes longer.  This is how the pure downstacker can have a lower stack than the better players.

The lack of line clear delay and ARE removes most of the penalty for using singles.

I have complete confidence that if I was a significantly faster player, I would have gotten a lot more second place finishes.  My bad losses were due to panicking and/or stalling.

Failing to add won't win you the whole game.  I didn't win once. I shouldn't have. i was wayyyy too slow. But neglecting to add can let you downstack faster, and there's really no penalty to speak of for it until some players get knocked out, and your failure to add lines really matters.

When people aren't providing enough pressure, others have to pick up the pace to knock out players, and to do so they must either play faster, neglect their downstacking, or downstack and add at the same time.

[clincher]

Okay just played a bunch last night, and learned a few things.

1) i'm wayyyy too slow.
2) even at my slow speed, i pulled off a few second place finishes in 5 player games when i waited 15 seconds before dropping my first piece.
3) this stunt ONLY works when there are 5 players.

1)What is "wayyyy too slow" to you?
80tpm? 100tpm? 120tpm?

2)Yeah but, at least for me, second places don't mean that much

My opinion is that if you get used to playing like this you're never gonna be able to win so why bother what people want is to win and that method is not effective, if you're unable to win a 5 player game you're not able to win a 1v1

[zaphod77]

1)What is "wayyyy too slow" to you?
80tpm? 100tpm? 120tpm?

2)Yeah but, at least for me, second places don't mean that much

My opinion is that if you get used to playing like this you're never gonna be able to win so why bother what people want is to win and that method is not effective, if you're unable to win a 5 player game you're not able to win a 1v1

Well second or even third in a vs5 game usually raises my rating.

My tpm was ending up below 70 most of the time. i think everyone here will agree that's wayyy too slow.

My point is that not only will downstacking to the exclusion of all else at the start of the game let you survive until a few players get knocked out, its also worth doing even if you actually know how to play better, because it gives you a lower stack after the players get knocked out, at which point you can then start attacking much more strongly, because you've gained a winning position to attack from.

While 5 players are all in the game, it doesn't make much of a difference whether not any one player is adding or not.  So if your stack is kept lower by concentrating more on downstacking then adding while all 4 opponents are in game, it is part of a winning strategy.

[jujube]

While 5 players are all in the game, it doesn't make much of a difference whether not any one player is adding or not.  So if your stack is kept lower by concentrating more on downstacking then adding while all 4 opponents are in game, it is part of a winning strategy.

i agree with that. you can't knock out 4 players by yourself so it pays to be a little cautious early on. still, you can stack up for 1 tetris at a time without putting yourself in any danger.

[ohitsstef]

lol i bet it didnt take you 5 hours to type all of this up
but it takes you forever to type up a 400 word essay
tsk tsk