Create your own twist setups

[myndzi]

I'm sorry you don't like the change. The people developing the game made a mistake, and it is being corrected. That is how development works.

By the way, there is currently a Netplay bug where you can, under certain circumstances, receive no garbage for the duration of a game. I've gotten used to taking advantage of it to win games, and I really like it, so I'm going to keep it in because I think that people are getting used to it and we shouldn't change it just because it might ruffle some feathers. After all, it's part of the game and everyone has access to it. It's neither right nor wrong, but rather preference.

[Someone2knoe]

Its not like i'm not seeing your point of view. I brought up that the 180 kicks should be fixed and made into simple kicks that were more logical. I even suggested that it is just a double rotate. I gathered more information about it and changed my opinion.

From  tetris.com
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Visual Rotation Point: using the Super Rotation System, this is the point anywhere near or within the Tetrimino around which the Tetris Engine attempts to rotate the Tetrimino. If unsuccessful, it will attempt to use the next Visual Rotation Point of the Tetrimino until it is successful.[/quote]

From Caffiene
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]"Visual rotation point" was semi-reverse-engineered by Koryan, and then fully reverse-engineered by Jago, using a coordinate/table approach. It's the same thing either way, so yes, BB and nullpomino follow SRS correctly.[/quote]

From this I perceived that they are not bugs and decided to let it be. I still was thinking teleports should be gone mostly because they are impractical, and nobody uses them. The others are in constant use. But if they remained it wouldn't make much of a difference because of the impracticality.

If this was truly just  the dev team trying to follow SRS rules for 180 rotate and making an error, by all means consider fixing it. Logically, you should still keep in mind the general opinion of people when changing it, which was my point initially.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]In that case, I like 4-wide [/quote]

Thats fine, combos aren't all powerful. They are just simple effective set ups that beginners can use. Maybe you would agree that an excellent spinner could beat someone who combos.

However I would still like combos to add 1 line per combo~

[myndzi]

The thing is, the Nullpo 180 kicks were just made up out of thin air. They aren't based on anything at all. And if you look at the actual table, you can see that it's overkill:

Code Select Expand



        //{{ 1, 0},{ 2, 0},{ 1, 1},{ 2, 1},{-1, 0},{-2, 0},{-1, 1},{-2, 1},{ 0,-1},{ 3, 0},{-3, 0}},    // 0>>2─┐
        //{{ 0, 1},{ 0, 2},{-1, 1},{-1, 2},{ 0,-1},{ 0,-2},{-1,-1},{-1,-2},{ 1, 0},{ 0, 3},{ 0,-3}},    // 1>>3─┼┐
        //{{-1, 0},{-2, 0},{-1,-1},{-2,-1},{ 1, 0},{ 2, 0},{ 1,-1},{ 2,-1},{ 0, 1},{-3, 0},{ 3, 0}},    // 2>>0─┘│
        //{{ 0, 1},{ 0, 2},{ 1, 1},{ 1, 2},{ 0,-1},{ 0,-2},{ 1,-1},{ 1,-2},{-1, 0},{ 0, 3},{ 0,-3}},    // 3>>1──┘


So rotation 0 tries to kick right once, right twice, down one right one, down one right two, left once, left twice, left one down one, left two down one, straight up one (the only up kick!), then right 3 and left three.

A similar thing happens with rotation 1. If you compare this behavior to the SRS kick tables for normal rotations, you can see that it is overly thorough and that the kicks only go down. It's basically a "magic button", which is neither in keeping with the normal SRS rotations nor does it provide any sort of challenge, knowledge of shapes, or the like. There's nothing to learn here, just press button and profit.

Note that many of the normal rotation kicks require some work in your stacking to block off the "up" kicks, which requires you to compromise between being able to perform the kick and keeping a clean stack. The 180 kicks have no such drawback in many cases.

As for caffeine's comment, BB's kicks are not the same as Nullpo's kicks, and while the kicks may follow a 'visual rotation point', part of the problem is that there are too many of these points, and too far away in some cases. Note that the normal SRS 90 degree rotation kick table has four kicks, while the current Nullpomino 180 table has eleven. If that doesn't tell you something is whack, then I don't know what else to say. I'll stop derailing the thread now, I hope this explains my reasoning well enough, and I hope that the Nullpomino players can accept the forthcoming changes without too much frustration.

Edit: In fairness, I suppose the normal rotations have twice as many possibilities, so you could say there are 8 kicks (and their reverses), though some are the same in some cases.


Edit 2: vvv the "visual rotation point" thing is new to me, too. I investigated in detail with the T piece, and it is apparent that we cannot use rotations that swing 180 degrees around most of these points. Once you identify them, however, the design appears pretty elegant, really. here is a fumen for how the T kicks rotate. The top left is the first kick, next one down to the right is the second kick, and so on. here is a similar fumen demonstrating the results of a 180 degree pivot around those same visual points. Results: unfortunate. Perhaps a reduced set of these points could be used, however. Also here is a picture identifying the visual rotation points for each of the kicks. Not all of them are used every time; for example, the second kick goes middle, left, right, middle.

[Someone2knoe]

It seems like they did it purposely then from my understanding. Why is your argument that it is a game bug that needs to be fixed?

I would agree that the kicks get pretty drastic from that table. Maybe we should find out their particular reasoning before making assumptions. I think I understand a lot of the concepts regarding how it works now. If they had no particular reasoning for making such drastic kicks we should get rid them, because it seems inconsistent with the single rotation kicks from my new understanding. No offense maybe if you initially tried to fully explain the situation I would have understood your argument a lot more. It is still questionable to me whether it should be changed because I still don't see it as wrong. The mechanics of the game is what makes the game. It is just like having a hold key. I have heard some players say that using hold is cheating. It is just a game mechanic that is inconsistent from what they have played before. It isn't necessarily right or wrong. Because wall kicks shouldn't differ too much in the way it works for clockwise and counterclockwise rotation, the argument I see is for consistency.

Random tangent:
In a sense we have a bunch of tetris games, but the games are different games. While it is all tetris-based, the mechanics in the games make them totally separate. Many people have pointed out that playing games like 40L is not helpful. 40L is a game in itself. So in many ways there are no "better" games. The exception I see is in games like TF. Nullpomino can pretty much emulate TF but with better coding. Lag is significantly reduced, players are not limited by frames but rather can play as fast as they can think and their fingers can move. I am not arguing that speed is all that matters, but to play as fast as your potential is important. Another point about Nullpomino is that the inputs are not randomly rejected like TF. The targeting system is unfair because it can lead to purposeful targeting.

That is how I distinguish between something that is good or bad and better or worse in tetris.

Anyway let this thread be on topic now. The next posts should be pertaining to : Create your own twist setups. I'll start off by sharing one that I use that I forgot to put in the wiki.

[fumen]110@7eIKXIPhBjhBVoB5ZBGdB0lqMARkcRAS4YME0i2rDU?gBAwNPAaEzPEJG98AQmqhECDdCA[/fumen]

[larrytetris]

good stuff, what's your best ultra score with that method?

Also, if you get this going in multiplayer, 60 APM is nothing.

5 TSDs in 21 seconds with TKI transfer is the best I've done with it.

[myndzi]

I need suggestions for what to name this one. I thought of a good name on the way home: the Bellows. I just tested it out in KoS and I like it a lot! (Fumen from the actual game) I spun every piece but the O, +26 attack.

[fumen]110@4c8eIwhbZijb8eKwQpYijb8e1lRpYihb1l8e1lQpjb?1l8eailzibss8eYiQplzibts8eRpushbYiss8eQpJwssiba?i8eIwushbai8eIwQpssibJwYi8eRplzhbIw1l8eQplzibIw?1lpbA4G7eAjYOVABVQrDQP98AwpeRASI4dDS07xDFBAAAwd?kzoblzobkzUcAQpAAwdcDobdDobcDUc3NB7eBepcmNBEekz?oblzobkzAcAgbEecDobdDobcDAcnXB7eGptcBSBd4cFYBaC?dymBAAA[/fumen]

Edit: this one was infeasible to pull off with 60hz soft drop, but not every possibility is.

Edit2: This can probably be generalized to an infinite stacking solution that allows you to build it up tall, using twists to cancel incoming garbage while you do so

Another game's knockdown:
[fumen]110@OcRpgbIwibQpibRpYi1lQpibusYi1llzhbusZilzib?ssZi9eushb1lYi9eIwssib1lYi9eKwhbJwQp9elzibIwRpI?wlz1lhbIwQpYiKw1lhbaiE3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbD3?pbr7H7eGnvApcBmDBlSBycBHYBAAA[/fumen]

.. I was one piece away from having +40, but that was +36. Without the L, I could have pulled out an SST at the end.

[Noogy]

[fumen]110@7eIKXIPhBjhBVoB5ZBGdB0lqMARkcRAS4YME0i2rDU?gBAwNPAaEzPEJG98AQmqhECDdCA[/fumen]

i made a more efficient variant ages ago; which jujube built on for a b2b:
[fumen]110@7eJKXIDgBtaBJcB+jBshBP+c3iBAAACiBTeD3lbA3g?bB3obA3vbAAA7eCP+cHjBAAA[/fumen]

http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showt...=2253&st=40

[Paradox]

[fumen]110@OeI3gbH3ibH3gbE3pbAYi7eDd3cNBdFhBAAA[/fumen]

[fumen]110@TeE3gbG3ibI3gbD3pbAYi7eDu8c+8cGhBAAA[/fumen]

[chopin]

This one is an alternative to TSD stacking (or Fractal). The last one is basically the same idea as the second one, but it hooks onto the other side (creating TSD stacking).
[fumen]110@6dE3jbH3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbG3pbA4G7eBNLBAAARdQp?nbRpnbQpIwobIwE3ibJwgcAAARdwNnbxNnbwN4Gob4GEAib?5GgcEHB7eGWKBPEBdocFIBAAAjHBAAArdsshbNRcDjbtsgb?NR9eYiB3bcAAA7eEHIBD8A2JBGFBAAA[/fumen]

[larrytetris]

I need suggestions for what to name this one. I thought of a good name on the way home: the Bellows. I just tested it out in KoS and I like it a lot! (Fumen from the actual game) I spun every piece but the O, +26 attack.

[fumen]110@4c8eIwhbZijb8eKwQpYijb8e1lRpYihb1l8e1lQpjb?1l8eailzibss8eYiQplzibts8eRpushbYiss8eQpJwssiba?i8eIwushbai8eIwQpssibJwYi8eRplzhbIw1l8eQplzibIw?1lpbA4G7eAjYOVABVQrDQP98AwpeRASI4dDS07xDFBAAAwd?kzoblzobkzUcAQpAAwdcDobdDobcDUc3NB7eBepcmNBEekz?oblzobkzAcAgbEecDobdDobcDAcnXB7eGptcBSBd4cFYBaC?dymBAAA[/fumen]

Edit: this one was infeasible to pull off with 60hz soft drop, but not every possibility is.

Edit2: This can probably be generalized to an infinite stacking solution that allows you to build it up tall, using twists to cancel incoming garbage while you do so

Another game's knockdown:
[fumen]110@OcRpgbIwibQpibRpYi1lQpibusYi1llzhbusZilzib?ssZi9eushb1lYi9eIwssib1lYi9eKwhbJwQp9elzibIwRpI?wlz1lhbIwQpYiKw1lhbaiE3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbD3?pbr7H7eGnvApcBmDBlSBycBHYBAAA[/fumen]

.. I was one piece away from having +40, but that was +36. Without the L, I could have pulled out an SST at the end.

Challenge me to a non-ranked match. You do that, I'll 4-wide, it'll be epic.

[myndzi]

I'm afraid you'll have to challenge me  I wouldn't play this on the second turn... also, I don't think I'd stack for three turns vs a 4-wide either.

[Zircean]

[fumen]110@TeE3gbG3ibI3gbD3pbAYi7eDu8c+8cGhBAAA[/fumen]

In DRS, you get this as a basic twist. No 180 trickery/BS needed (ironic because DRS is pretty masterful at 180 BS). Just one clockwise rotate...

In real games though, you might just want to take the L-spin double, given that it changes nothing other than looking less flashy.

[Kitaru]

In DRS, you get this as a basic twist. No 180 trickery/BS needed (ironic because DRS is pretty masterful at 180 BS). Just one clockwise rotate...

In real games though, you might just want to take the L-spin double, given that it changes nothing other than looking less flashy.

[fumen]110@NeA3kbE3gbG3ibI3gbD3pbAYi[/fumen]

What now Zircean? What now?

But no, seriously, I'd just take the original as an L-Spin probably, haha.

[Zircean]

DRS still throws down that twist like it's nothing. Don't even start with me, mister.

[myndzi]

As I pointed out earlier, it is very convenient to be able to take either the L or the J. I didn't make a separate fumen for that twist, but it's proved quite useful to me in KoS so far.