How do we find the world's best Tetris player?

[kbr]

As the topic states...
What key characteristics of a Tetris player would you consider to be the deciding factor in determining who's best?
What game/variant would be best suited to find the most skilled player in the world? and why?

[eevor]

It's hebo.

[kbr]

It's hebo.

We all know Hebo is a great player and has won the TTO every year, but if the game were to change to a different variant, what variation of Tetris would be best to judge the overall skills of Tetris players?

[eevor]

We all know Hebo is a great player and has won the TTO every year, but if the game were to change to a different variant, what variation of Tetris would be best to judge the overall skills of Tetris players?

Besides dominating "normal" tetris games like TF and Nullpo, he also won a Cultris tournament. How many other players are amongst the very best in both Cultris and normal tetris?

edit/ sorry, didn't realize you're looking for a metric.
It's a though one. I mean, apm, speed and all can give some estimate, but tournaments (or even better, leagues) are the only really relevant thing. For example, how do you rank subversive now that he doesn't play tourneys? You have all thw stats and everything, but I don't see how to do it when players are that good and that close skill-wise.

[ohitsstef]

Besides dominating "normal" tetris games like TF and Nullpo, he also won a Cultris tournament. How many other players are amongst the very best in both Cultris and normal tetris?

He wants to know key characteristics of what a top Tetris player should have as well as what type of game would help showcase that.



I am coming up with an answer........ as best as I can.

Key characteristics
- speed
- APM
- timing/garbage blocking
- ability to adapt to different platforms and styles of playing

I think a game that doesn't focus on one skill would be best in picking out the best Tetris player because being the best they should be able to adapt their play styles. Games that focus on single aspects are imbalanced (c2 focuses on comboing, bb focused on speed/tetrising) and only showcase minimal skills.

From my experiences with TOJ and TF, I think combos need to be more balanced and less powerful.
Win ratios are so meh (blink's reply) lol, if I played a bunch of noobs I could have a 100% win ratio. (am i the best?) But if I played against people better than me, I'd have a low win ratio. It's really hard to base a player's skill based off that.

[Blink]

As the topic states...
What key characteristics of a Tetris player would you consider to be the deciding factor in determining who's best?
What game/variant would be best suited to find the most skilled player in the world? and why?

For me, one player isn't better than another until they face each other heads up without any other player interference or special items which can add luck as a factor.  

The variations of Tetris I find to be the most balanced in terms of the strength of T-spins/Tetrises/Combos as well as speed and timing are TOJ and Tetris Friends.  TOJ to me is the best variant, because T-Spin minis still add a line so it opens up a lot more setups and strategic play.  Both TF and TOJ need to do something to balance combos though, cause 4wide and 3wide starts seem overpowered still.

My key characteristics for determining the best player (in order of importance):

APM - strong indicator of skill
CPM - Lines countered per minute - another strong indicator
Speed - important too
Win ratio - important but can be manipulated by repeatedly playing bad players

Pretty sure a formula can be used from all 4 of these to predict who would come out on top of tournaments.

[kbr]

Thanks guys...keep the suggestions coming. Blink, what about single player variants? Any suggestions?

[eevor]

My key characteristics for determining the best player (in order of importance):

APM - strong indicator of skill
CPM - Lines countered per minute - another strong indicator
Speed - important too
Win ratio - important but can be manipulated by repeatedly playing bad players

Pretty sure a formula can be used from all 4 of these to predict who would come out on top of tournaments.

APM and CPM are also strongly influenced by your opponent's skill level and playstyle. Actually anything can be manipulated by plaing weaker opponents.

Dunno, surely you can derive something like a formula  (for a particular tetris client), but in the end it all comes up to who has beaten who. Pretty much like in all sports - there is a way to determine how good some team is, but that doesn't matter if they don't win.

[Blink]

Thanks guys...keep the suggestions coming. Blink, what about single player variants? Any suggestions?

Singleplayer skill?  Determines what you're looking for.....

I find that a downstack mode with rising garbage (while scoring total lines sent) will work pretty reliably for judging multiplayer skill.  For an example you'll want to look at NullpoMino's Dig Challenge mode.  It tests for speed, downstacking ability, and since it measures APM T-spins/combos/Tetrises/b2b all play a role.  

Videos of Dig Challenge mode:  http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...o+dig+challenge

Ultra mode used to be a good way to determine skill in the past until around 80% of the players used ST stacking for the entire 2 minutes.  40 lines mode will show who are the fastest players, but if these fast players are horrible at downstacking or T-spins they're not going to beat many other players in a heads up match.

So I will say a dig type mode that measures APM will be a great single player variant that you guys should have in your next game!

[caffeine]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]What key characteristics of a Tetris player would you consider to be the deciding factor in determining who's best?[/quote]

• Core stacking skill
  • Building in a way that leaves options for whatever comes next
• Line-clearing skill
  • Looking at the whole picture and stacking in a way that allows you to clear down to the bottom efficiently
• Speed
  • Processing pieces without hesitation and quickly resolving problems
• Flexibility and adaptability
  • Masters and exploits the ever-changing game-specific quirks/gimmicks thrown at them (Tetrising, T-spinning, timing/canceling, etc.)

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]What game/variant would be best suited to find the most skilled player in the world? and why?[/quote]
One that tests all four of the above. Speed and flexibility/adaptability are tested pretty much almost any way you design the game. Core stacking skill is less-tested with hold, previews, soft drop, etc. Nonetheless, you see good core-stacking in top players and highscores due to it being the most efficient way to play. (You may be able to keep from screwing up the field too bad, but you won't play optimally without stacking smart.)

I think line-clearing skill is where modern games slack off the most. By that, I mainly mean downstacking. Change-on-attack (COA) garbage is too easy. I understand most of us are used to it, and I understand it opens the door for some COA-specific strategies, but I really do believe the game could benefit from random garbage instead. It's more challenging to clear down, and attacks become more punishing. There are some players who win a lot on TOJ/TF, yet lack some fundamental skills. When you can clear down 12 rows of garbage like it was nothing, I think there's a serious problem.

As for single player: currently, modern games only really focus on one of the four skills I named--gimmick mastery. Wanna do well in Ultra? Exploit ST-stacking. Marathon? Exploit the final goal line with TST and do Combo 1s. Like Blink was saying Dig Challenge is a good mode for encouraging more improvisation and a broader range of skills.

Btw, I sometimes wonder if you guys deliberately want line-clear delay in sprint mode to encourage Tetrises. If that's the case, one idea would be "Ten Tetrises" mode. The goal-condition is ten Tetrises, and you're scored on completion time--no need for line clear delay.

[Integration]

What key characteristics of a Tetris player would you consider to be the deciding factor in determining who's best?

Didn't you get your answer already here?

[!--ImageUrlBegin--][!--ImageUrlEBegin--][img width=\\\"400\\\" class=\\\"attach\\\" src=\\\"http://i.imgur.com/LY09uoq.png\\\" border=\\\'0\\\' alt=\\\"IPB Image\\\" /][!--ImageUrlEnd--][/a][!--ImageUrlEEnd--]

That are amazing 350 answers! You don't need more answers. Oh and listen to the NOT BLINK advice. Never listen to Blink.

The variations of Tetris I find to be the most balanced in terms of the strength of T-spins/Tetrises/Combos as well as speed and timing are TOJ and Tetris Friends.

That would be like using 100 meters to determine the "best" runner. Every hobby athlete ca beat Usain Bolt over 5 km. Tetris is versatile. The only way to determine the real best player is by letting the best players compete in different disciplines. Like a Heptathlon consisting of TF multiplayer, SNES multiplayer, 40 line sprint, 2 min Ultra, Survivor, NES marathon and TGM.

Thanks guys...keep the suggestions coming. Blink, what about single player variants? Any suggestions?

Classic Marathon. NES, starting at level 18. Oh wait there's already [a href=\\\"http://www.facebook.com/pages/Classic-Tetris-World-Championship/121946764512305]Classic Tetris World Championship[/url]. The only noteworthy live events of Tetris use classic Marathon. Now guess why.

Ultra mode used to be a good way to determine skill in the past until around 80% of the players used ST stacking for the entire 2 minutes.

There's a simple way to change that: use any other randomizer than 7-bag.  The Tetris god is random. Too many people have lost their faith in god. Hopefully, Corrosive will never do.

[XaeL]

I think the key metrics are:

Closeness of name to Hebo_Mai

[Kitaru]

That would be like using 100 meters to determine the "best" runner. Every hobby athlete ca beat Usain Bolt over 5 km. Tetris is versatile. The only way to determine the real best player is by letting the best players compete in different disciplines. Like a Heptathlon consisting of TF multiplayer, SNES multiplayer, 40 line sprint, 2 min Ultra, Survivor, NES marathon and TGM.

Absolutely! I think it would be awesome to run an event that does what Best of the West, Kings of the Coast, etc. do for music games or what PAPA, Pinburgh, etc. do for pinball. BotW/KotC is a multi-day event with individual tournaments for every music game in the host arcade. Each game has its own individual winner, but your placement in each event earns you points toward an overall ranking. Pinball tournaments leverage banks of games with varied styles of play, and your ability to score consistently on most or all of them is what gets you into the main bracket. One common thread between these two examples is song/table selection; when you get down to the main bracket, the players get to make picks on "where to go" in the overall bank of songs or machines. Each player gets to take the match to a place where they feel strongest, and you get to see who comes out on top overall.

Classic Marathon. NES, starting at level 18. Oh wait there's already Classic Tetris World Championship. The only noteworthy live events of Tetris use classic Marathon. Now guess why.

What, you don't want to see competitions won on drop point/small combo abuse or who can execute a canned setup the fastest?

[Blitz]

As the topic states...
What key characteristics of a Tetris player would you consider to be the deciding factor in determining who's best?

There is no easy way to crown the best Tetris player because there are just too many different variations and aspects of Tetris.
You can divide Tetris into a whole bunch of disciplines such as NES Tetris, TGM, 40 Lines, various singleplayer downstacking modes, various games and game modes with no hold and/or 1 or no next pieces, and things like continuous perfect clears, all spins, pattern stacking(like shuey does) and probably a lot of other things I forgot to mention are skills themselves. Guideline multiplayer is a big disciple where some of the skills learned by playing one of the previously mentioned disciplines can be put together and used as an advantage.

The only way to determine the best Tetris player is if one player is able to prove himself the very best at every thinkable task you can perform by placing Tetrominos inside a matrix. If one and only one player is better than him at doing one specific thing in one specific game, then nobody can be the best at Tetris.

However, determining who the best Tetris players(plural) are would be possible by dividing Tetris into a lot of categories and see who is the best downstacker, who can clear 40 lines fastest, who is the best at NES Tetris,  who is best at perfect clears, who is best at all spins, who is best at ST-stacking, who is the best at multiplayer Tetris and so on.

30.10.2013 EDIT:

What game/variant would be best suited to find the most skilled player in the world?

A game that does not lagg would be best suited to find the most skilled player in the world.

and why?

Because lagg causes good players to missdrop and/or play worse than their potential. Lagg is not noticed by most new and inexperienced players, but once you reach a certain level of skill you will start to notice that tetrisfriends does lagg a lot compared to the better alternatives. Trust me, the lagg does exist.

[StS]

I think the key metrics are:

Closeness of name to Hebo_Mai

"Hobo_Mai"