Is Hard Drop's Community "Elitist"? What can be done differently?

[caffeine]

Katatoniopeth mentioned this in his interview with SirJeivus, and it never really occurred to me that this might be a problem until then. When I looked it up, "elitist" means "favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite." He said that because of this, HD can be intimidating for newer players to join. That is clearly a bad thing.

Now, those who invest a lot of time into a game tend to be the same kind of people who participate in communities like this. I don't think that this can be helped. It's like when I tried out GGPO.net to play Street Fighter. Everyone was amazingly good, since those were exactly the type of people who tend to gravitate towards that type of community. I didn't stand a chance, and it was fun for neither of us, since I posed no challenge.

On top of that, Tetris is an abstract game that is not easily related to real life or even to other games. Over time, we have developed our own lexicon to describe Tetris-related mechanics and strategy. Once again, I'm not sure that much can be done differently about this esotericism. One thing that's useful for sure is the wiki and Paul676's strategy thread, where players can learn about the glossary and such.

So, I do believe there are some necessary evils in our situation. Still, we should be doing everything in our power to make this community as welcoming to newcomers as possible.

My main question to you is:
A) Do you think that this is a problem on Hard Drop? And more importantly...
B) What do you suggest can be done about it? Please include specific and practical ideas.

To get things rolling, one idea is that if a member is being elitist, rude, or just unwelcoming in some way to a newer member, then a mod should send them a friendly PM. Remind them what we're about and how we expect all members to be treated with respect. If it keeps happening, then we can take further action from there. It might also be a good idea to include this in our "sticky" post about posting guidelines. Although, I really do believe this could use some revamping already to set a more friendly and welcoming tone. Anyone know how other communities are tackling this problem?

[Paradox]

Have we ever done a "Help me" thread? We can state it is for newer players and encourage them to first use the search feature, but we wont condemn them for not finding that thread we remember from 2 years back. We can have the knowledgeable people from our community help answer each question. We can then edit the main post with the list of questions asked and link to the post explaining it.

I've seen this used on starcraft forums and it is really noob-friendly. It is a nice place to go when you want to ask questions, not be criticized for "dumb" questions, and be answered by the best players.

[caffeine]

Excellent idea! Do you want to do the honors? If not, either I can create it or some other volunteer can. Then we can get it stickied.

[Paradox]

I would definitely want to contribute answers frequently but maybe not create it

I would like to see something at the end like

Contributors:
Player x- Why they are qualified to give you an answer
Player b- Why they are qualified to give you an answer


So caffeine could be listed as rly smert guy + any achievements you have had

So they have a reference to who is going to give them constructive advice n stuff!

[Profane]

I really like the idea and think it can be beneficial to our community.

Addressing the thread topic I dont think we are elitist as a whole but maybe at times we are to critical of peoples learning curves.   The one thing I see a lot is discrediting someones achievements because of how long its taken them to achieve.   Example subbing 60 seconds for most of us seems like not a big deal but its a pretty big milestone for a beginning player and likely was at some point a big deal to you.  Just because someone like Mario subs 30 seconds in under a year doesn't mean thats the new benchmark that must be reached for the achievement to have substance.  You're not born knowing how to t spin so we should share in someones personal joy or refrain from commenting.    

Im on my phone so my sentences may be not well written but what eves just my 2 cents

[Katatoniopeth]

Have we ever done a "Help me" thread? We can state it is for newer players and encourage them to first use the search feature, but we wont condemn them for not finding that thread we remember from 2 years back. We can have the knowledgeable people from our community help answer each question. We can then edit the main post with the list of questions asked and link to the post explaining it.

I've seen this used on starcraft forums and it is really noob-friendly. It is a nice place to go when you want to ask questions, not be criticized for "dumb" questions, and be answered by the best players.

I agree that it is a great idea. There is one thing I would like to add though. I never learned anything from the wikis or fumens or threads. I just can't learn that way, I am a hands on type learner and I am sure there are other people like me. I think if there were some coaches (like you have done in the past, which is awesome!) that would make it perfect for newer players to have either option. I learned everything I know from either just playing on my own, or having someone teaching me things (PolarisTR, DHaung, Myndzi, Mario, Pokemino) to name just some of the people. So if both options were available the would be optimal.

As far as elitism goes, I don't haven't seen any troll posts on newer players recently, but coming on the site seeing that most of the active players are in that top 1 percent bracket, it is really intimidating, and when I first started out it was overwhelming to me, I have been doing somethings to help with that as mentioned in the Jeivus interview, I think some more communal events could help bring in a lot of newer players and ease some of that "elitism intimidation" factor.

[SirJeivus]

A lot of these solutions are thread/forum based, which isn't necessarily bad but perhaps some innovation might make things interesting.

I was thinking of doing a "Help Center" (similar to what Paradox proposed), but it be a live stream once a week or once every two weeks, where the streamer watches the shoutbox or any hot threads in the HD forums for any questions and he or she answers it, either with fumens or actual gameplay. During the streaming, newer players are encouraged to ask questions in the shoutbox. These streams are documented and properly referenced based on topic so new questions don't get asked again weekly.

This would add a live, interactive component to it. Much like what Parkzer did when he would play in random TF rooms, and encouraged others to play with him. However, the angle of what I suggest is more informative based rather than entertainment based.

Thoughts?

[qwerty098765]

Edit: I like Sir Jevius' Idea :3

Yes we are elitist. //no doubt. Just look at who is acknowledged and who isn't. (Acknowledgements in all Facets.)

In terms of a help thread... I think all we need is a Q+A section. Anyone can answer and
anyone can debate answers. There are people always willing to help so it shouldn't be a problem.
The only problem with using this idea is that good answers will be hard to keep track of and archive.

We have a 'strategy/help' section but it's not so welcoming as its description very clearly states that
it is for well written guides, fumens and higher level strategy debates. At the moment I think... If any
questions are asked they're put through the shoutbox, general or tetris forums. This is a little messy
and I think relies too much on a topic staying in the recent posts section.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about something that promotes progress and improvement...
I know I try to get friends to start on tetris (they love it at first) but many of them struggle
to keep an interest in it because the improvements come very very slowly and the moderately
good players or roughly the passable level of this community (eg.. me) still seem god-tier to
them even after they've practised a fair amount.**

Improvement in tetris is a very slow thing in general so perhaps we could create encouragement
in the form of, "Stepping stone challenge of this month" or "Little achievement of the month" where
the aim is to either reward little accomplishments or set challenges that guide players who want to
improve.

Mindless practicing makes improvement a little more difficult I think...
Particularly when you cannot tell if you have or have not improved. //Introducing milestones.

It is also difficult to ask in depth questions if you don't fully understand the thing you are asking about.

** in perspective: clueless > new > dabbled > well practised > moderately good
> challenging > majority of HD regulars > tournament nemesis > tournament winners.

[ohitsstef]

I'm going to point out that even though we have pinned threads that can help newer members learn gameplay and such (i.e. paul's thread that links useful threads for improvement and such), newer members ask the same questions repeatedly. Even though we have numerous threads exist to help them already.

I think some of the threads that can help out newer members should be sent out as like the first PM they get when they make their account. The message will tell them how to search for topics, a link to paul's thread, etc etc. Just show them what HD has that can help them get better and/or reach out to other users who are just as interested in Tetris as they are.

As for our community being elitist.. I can see that. We talk like we're better than TF players that come here. HD is a community made up of the top Tetris players, or Tetris players aspiring to be the best. As a community though I guess we could be more inviting to newer members looking for buddies with the same interests. But there will always be some people who can't fit into the community. The blame can't be put on either party.. sometimes things just honestly don't work out.

[qwerty098765]

I'm going to point out that even though we have pinned threads that can help newer members learn gameplay and such (i.e. paul's thread that links useful threads for improvement and such), newer members ask the same questions repeatedly. Even though we have numerous threads exist to help them already.

The very first problem is that, yes... we DO have threads that answer basic question people have but these
are difficult to find. In addition if a person is not aware of what to search for then they will not find it no matter
how easy it is to find.

When it comes to finding answers and being able to comprehend those answers a person will need
to have questions in their head that they can address. It is the reason why university readings are far more
effective and far easier to understand after a lecture has set the context for those readings. Guides need
context and players need some experience before guides.

And like Kat said~ some players just learn far better from hands-on experience.


"The blame can't be put on either party.. sometimes things just honestly don't work out."
I don't mean to be aggressive here but doesn't such a statement scream of an,

"It can't be done! Let's not bother~!" attitude?

[Katatoniopeth]

As for our community being elitist.. I can see that. We talk like we're better than TF players that come here. HD is a community made up of the top Tetris players, or Tetris players aspiring to be the best. As a community though I guess we could be more inviting to newer members looking for buddies with the same interests. But there will always be some people who can't fit into the community. The blame can't be put on either party.. sometimes things just honestly don't work out.

What do you mean by that? Some people can't fit in, you really need to elaborate on that, because I am extremely curious...

A lot of these solutions are thread/forum based, which isn't necessarily bad but perhaps some innovation might make things interesting.

I was thinking of doing a "Help Center" (similar to what Paradox proposed), but it be a live stream once a week or once every two weeks, where the streamer watches the shoutbox or any hot threads in the HD forums for any questions and he or she answers it, either with fumens or actual gameplay. During the streaming, newer players are encouraged to ask questions in the shoutbox. These streams are documented and properly referenced based on topic so new questions don't get asked again weekly.

This would add a live, interactive component to it. Much like what Parkzer did when he would play in random TF rooms, and encouraged others to play with him. However, the angle of what I suggest is more informative based rather than entertainment based.

Thoughts?

   

[ohitsstef]

What do you mean by that? Some people can't fit in, you really need to elaborate on that, because I am extremely curious...

It's exactly how it sounds, some people fit into the HD community and some don't. It's not a bad thing that some people don't fit in, it's like when you're in school.. you can't fit into every clique at school.

[qwerty098765]

As for our community being elitist.. I can see that. We talk like we're better than TF players that come here. HD is a community made up of the top Tetris players, or Tetris players aspiring to be the best. As a community though I guess we could be more inviting to newer members looking for buddies with the same interests. But there will always be some people who can't fit into the community.

I don't think the aim is to accommodate every new player to the community. That would be impossible
and possibly toxic. On the other hand we don't want to drive away people who are new players but have
a passion or interest in the game because those members are the ones who make the population of HD.
It's never harmful to try and accommodate as many of these 'new buddlings' and my personal opinion is
that we don't try hard enough. (Me included.)

It's not enough to just say, "Well, they don't fit."
I think it's appropriate if we can say, "We've tried and yet they still don't fit."

[ohitsstef]

I don't think the aim is to accommodate every new player to the community. That would be impossible
and possibly toxic. On the other hand we don't want to drive away people who are new players but have
a passion or interest in the game because those members are the ones who make the population of HD.
It's never harmful to try and accommodate as many of these 'new buddlings' and my personal opinion is
that we don't try hard enough. (Me included.)
It's not enough to just say, "Well, they don't fit."
I think it's appropriate if we can say, "We've tried and yet they still don't fit."

It seems like you're misunderstanding me, my point was your last sentence. If we tried, then it's ok. But if we didn't try then so be it. That's all I'm saying.

[qwerty098765]

It seems like you're misunderstanding me, my point was your last sentence. If we tried, then it's ok. But if we didn't try then so be it. That's all I'm saying.

Then do you have any ideas on how we should try instead? O___________O;;;