Wikimerge, Wikia's shutdown, getting people interested in contributing to tetris knowledge

[caffeine]

There's a big difference between "I shut it down because I didn't want to give it to anybody" and "I shut it down and I didn't want to give it to anybody". I understood you to mean the latter.

Can you explain the difference to me? I only really see one, but it doesn't make sense. If someone shuts down a site because they didn't want to give it to anyone, why not just keep it running then? Why does that motivate someone to shut down in the first place? In other words, shouldn't there always be a precursor?

[myndzi]

On the one hand, there was 'unexplained reasons' (which I recall being the 'official' answer), which phrases the rest as 'screw you guys'. On the other hand, it's a direct statement against the [potential] inheritors. The way things went down, nobody really had any clue why this was happening and they were frustrated that you would do that.

To be clear, I don't agree with the reasoning anyway, but at least I can understand an accept it.

[Caithness]

Can it at least be said that everyone agrees the Wikia version should be shut down and removed from the internet? I feel like that is the only first step that can lead anywhere productive, and I haven't really seen anyone argue against it either.

[Sisu]

Black Flag Leader Can't Stop Ex-Bandmates, Judge Rules  

[perfectclear]

If you wanna go that way, just notify TTC and TC will get a nice fresh-off-the-plate cease and desist for using the trademarked Tetris name since 2009, else TTC risks losing trademark. I think caff's main point was that none of the copied posts were copied legally except for those that were originating from the active members of .net. But lets not stir this hornets' nest.

[Kitaru]

perfectclear, you might want to look into a thing called Fair Use.

Also,

I totally encourage you to create a "read-only archive" of the forum, but keep in mind the wiki's only moving domains.

...so your second point is kind of off-base as well.

Sisu, stop stirring the pot. You keep bringing up this up, including in other threads where it isn't even remotely relevant. It's seriously not helping anything.

Hell, it doesn't strictly even need to be relevant to the chain of discussion here! Where we left off with Caithness's post (as well as discussion in IRC/PMs/other off-channel communication) was that the stagnant Wikia mirror isn't helping one way or the other. From what I recall, caffeine even tried to get it removed, but they wouldn't let him do so. Efforts dropped off as a result.

NethackWiki seems to have encountered similar problems in their move, however they've at least managed to successfully outrank Wikia for "Nethack Wiki" searches. I recall seeing some pages that had been replaced with notices of the move, though I'm sure that stuff is seen as "vandalism" and is regularly cleared out so Wikia can remain an ad revenue sink. Moreover, even the notice in the News sidebar announcing the move was against Wikia rules and also had to be removed!

[caffeine]

perfectclear, you might want to look into a thing called Fair Use.

Also,

I totally encourage you to create a "read-only archive" of the forum, but keep in mind the wiki's only moving domains.

In regards to my site's forum, every member granted tetrisconcept.com the priviledge of publishing their words under its terms of service. On the other hand, tetrisconcept.net straight up copied this content. In other words, I was given permission from my members to publish their content. TC.net was not. On the contrary of what you said, simply attributing someone on the forum does not give you the legal right of publishing their complete work without permission. You may be interested in reading more about this subject on Wikipedia's Fair Use article.

If TC.net would've hosted a read-only archive, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[perfectclear]

perfectclear, you might want to look into a thing called Fair Use.

I looked into it, keeping in mind Tetris is a TM, so I assumed you meant Fair Use for TMs. In this case, its okay to use Tetris nominatively, as in "concept regarding Tetris ™", but since they also use ARS games which arent strictly Tetris ™ games, they arent using it according to fair use and could be cease and desisted if TTC wanted to/this was ever brought to court for the sake of actively protecting their TM. This has nothing to do with the discussion of a wiki-merge, which is what my comment was trying to point out (that sisu was linking something irrelevant).

[Kitaru]

If TC.net would've hosted a read-only archive, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I was only speaking insofar as Burbruee being given permission to make a copy of the forum contents.

...but since they also use ARS games which arent strictly Tetris ™ games, they arent using it according to fair use and could be cease and desisted if TTC wanted to/this was ever brought to court for the sake of actively protecting their TM.

Simply put, you have been misinformed.

[colour_thief]

How about we stop playing lawyer and start playing more Tetris. All this TC talk is really avoiding the question that really matters, anyways.

Why can't we all be friends?

If you need a wall of text to answer that, please take a step back and reflect on the absurdity of it all.

True facts: the singular motivation for a wikimerge is benefiting all of tetriskind. It may not be reciprocated, but I can speak for everyone at dread pirate website TC.net when I say we have a genuine interest in the knowledge and opinions of everyone at HD. And while sure, HD has its niche interests and TC.net has it's own (let's stop simplifying it as SRS vs TGM, both communities have richer culture than that) and different niches can certainly cater to themselves with separate wikis, a collaborative wiki is strictly better for the Tetris community at large. It's something that needs to happen, for the love of Tetris.

Man, all I want is to see stuff like the glory days like when TOJ introduced the (mysterious new) 8-bag randomizer, which had the algorithm rapidly deciphered (while TOJ was still in beta) by the western Tetris community, by Tetris enthusiasts with no interest in actually playing TOJ. Or like when tepples or whoever would ask the right question about obscure TGM rule corner cases, prompting investigation and expanded knowledge. Everyone used to work together so well to improve the knowledge for the whole community.



caffeine, from the tone of your posts I get the impression that if we met at a hypothetical Tetris event in real life you would just glare at me or maybe try to ignore me. Dude, I would want to buy you a beer and laugh about old times. Life is too short for bullshit. I can only imagine what the TC closure drama was like for you. Really, any variation of feeling not in control and violated is not cool, it's basically internet rape. For the part I played I'm truly and deeply sorry and I sincerely hope that it hasn't affected you beyond being drama.

If I'm honest I must confess that I think the illegality argument is nonsense, but that doesn't mean I don't think the way in which dread pirate website TC.net was born wasn't a dick move. But I think there were dick moves on both sides. You know what they say, two dicks don't make a... Well it's just sort of too many dicks. Dicks everywhere. It doesn't make anything. But as dick-like as our dick move was, it was born out of a love for Tetris. Just as your dick move was born from the love of something you gave birth to. If I can respect you for being an honourable dick in your own way, can you not do the same? To perpetuate this ancient rivalry by opposing a wikimerge is a much different action, the motivation has changed over time. If you think about it, perhaps you can appreciate that this whole thing lost honour a long time ago, and all that is left is hate and maybe some lust for revenge. Those kinds of feelings died on our side a loooong time ago man. We forgive you for everything, please don't hate us. Let's leave the past in the past and move on.

Hug?

dicks dicks dicks dicks

ok all out of my system, ryan heise can open his eyes again now

[Integration]

I can't really contribute to that topic. I just felt the inner urge to post that video:

colour_thief's post has a high potential to be quoted in one's signature. This is meant in a neutral way.

[massi4h]

I can't really contribute to that topic. I just felt the inner urge to post that video:

colour_thief's post has a high potential to be quoted in one's signature. This is meant in a neutral way.

B-but he has an aussie accent. We don't talk at all like that.

[caffeine]

I appreciate that you can admit what you have. While I still regret that you, muf, dehacked, and company never created your own authentic site, I was never interested in making enemies with anyone. I am willing to forgive you guys even if it means there remains this weird, unauthorized/hijacked TC out there. It is especially awkward since I have decided to revive my site in order to host some of my own personal content.

Things were just so heated when all that stuff went down. Actually, after the smoked cleared, several members came to me privately about how they regretted how badly things went. I think that's one thing we can all agree on: it was uglier than it had to be. I have already apologized in another thread for my part in it. When I met Kevin DDR and Kitaru IRL, I got the feeling there was some awkwardness over old tc drama, and I hated that. After talking a bit, I believe the air cleared and I definitely think we consider each other to be pals. I don't see why it should be different for anyone else from the golden age of TC. There are only so many diehard Tetris enthusiasts out there, and we can't afford to not be on friendly terms.

As for the merge idea, a few things:

• At Edo's suggestion, I have personally asked the Wikia people to close their Tetris wiki down. They declined.
• I am neither for or against a unified wiki. I believe people are probably assigning more importance to it than appropriate. The best thing for "tetriskind" is to keep playing and contributing however people feel comfortable.
• I think having the hosting being done by those who also host tc.net is a mistake, even if it is free.
• Blink runs HD's wiki. Whoever it is who runs tc.net, runs that site's unauthorized wiki (last I heard, that would be muf and dehacked... who haven't even expressed any interest in the merge so far, from what I can see).
• If you guys want a wiki merge, I'd think that you'd ought to be appealing to the above two parties--not me.

tl;dr: While I still do in fact hate that there's this weird ripoff of TC out there and wish it would be crushed and melted, I'd still like to consider those behind it to be my friends. No hard feelings.

[myndzi]

Holy shit, what. Caffeine, somehow I managed to edit-not-reply your post. Again. And you are the only person I've ever done this to, wtf. I managed to put it back the way it was, and I'm sorry!

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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]

• At Edo's suggestion, I have personally asked the Wikia people to close their Tetris wiki down. They declined.
  [/quote]
  
  What. I thought it was pretty clear from the ToS that we'd be able to get that done. That's irritating.
  
  HD's wiki I think will be pretty hard to rank because of how Google sees its content, but perhaps with updated software and/or some work, we can make it something that can just plain outrank Wikia. Might ask my brother to have a glance at it?
  
  [!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
  
• I think having the hosting being done by those who also host tc.net is a mistake, even if it is free.
  [/quote]
  
  I am still fine with hosting and, if necessary, paying for this.

[muf]

Hey gang, I decided to register over here since I apparently haven't ever done that since HD came into existence. First off, i want to come out and say that i don't have any hard feelings against anyone and I'm really happy to see old wounds starting to heal.

• I am neither for or against a unified wiki. I believe people are probably assigning more importance to it than appropriate. The best thing for "tetriskind" is to keep playing and contributing however people feel comfortable.

The argument has never really been for the existing Tetris community (which will probably keep to their respective half of the community - with exception of a few strays who hop back and forth between the two). The argument is mainly for new people who may not even realise there is such a thing as a Tetris community, or that it's split in two halves. People searching for Tetris information are presented with three sites with a mostly identical wiki, which is confusing at best and might turn away people at worst. Unifying HD/TC wikis, even if we can't get rid of Wikia, would be a great step in the right direction.

• I think having the hosting being done by those who also host tc.net is a mistake, even if it is free.

I think everyone involved here is open to an (ad-)free alternative, that doesn't rely on donations and doesn't go offline for a few days every 6 months.

• Blink runs HD's wiki. Whoever it is who runs tc.net, runs that site's unauthorized wiki (last I heard, that would be muf and dehacked... who haven't even expressed any interest in the merge so far, from what I can see).

I am completely in favour of shutting down TC.net's wiki in favour of wiki merge. I've been stalking this thread ever since it was created and sought out options with myndzi as it developed. "Outsourcing" the wiki out to a separate site would also alleviate a lot of the problems we've been having with integrating MediaWiki into the TC relaunch (which still hasn't gone live after all these months). Ideally I'd like to have some kind of "site ring" (if you've been on the internet long enough to have seen those back when they were a thing) where TC links to HD which links to the Wiki which links to TC and vice-versa. It'd make the friendly feelings among the site administrations involved clear to the outside and make it easy for outsiders/newcomers to find their bearing in the greater Tetris community.

• If you guys want a wiki merge, I'd think that you'd ought to be appealing to the above two parties--not me.

tl;dr: While I still do in fact hate that there's this weird ripoff of TC out there and wish it would be crushed and melted, I'd still like to consider those behind it to be my friends. No hard feelings.

Considering that earlier in the thread, Blink said he'd be okay with the merge if you were, and you're now stating that you're okay with it as long as Blink is, does that mean it's on now? I'm just about ready to get out the proverbial champagne, haha.