non-random garbage

[Integration]

Most versus games will send garbage lines with exactly 1 hole on a random position (if you clear at least 2 lines or make combos). I want to describe a further way of which I am convinced, that it would be interesting and balanced.

First off, I only know 2 official games, which use non-random garbage:

Bloxeed (1989)
If you clear Doubles, Triples or Tetrises, the opponent will receive exactly those lines, where the positions of your last piece (the piece wich completed those lines) stay empty. By this, you can send lines with up to 2 garbage holes (e.g. with an O piece). The problem with that rule is, that stacking for doubles would rule out stacking for Tetrises. This way of sending lines was adapted by Palatris/Dualtris.

Tetris: New Century (2006)
When doing a double or triple line clear, all corresponding lines except the row at the top will be sent to your opponent. The order of lines will be reversed (that means lowest line will become the garbage line at the top).

Tetrises and T-Spin Singles & Douples will also send the top line, T-Spins even duplicate the lines sent (that means 4 lines sent instead of 2 for a TSD). Those rules make the TSDs overpowered. You can top out your opponent within 6 bags or so. There's also a back to back bonus, which sends an additional random garbage line to your opponent.

[fumen]110@7eHReIEcBKfBviBLjB+ZBdAdFgBJeB3gbI3gbF3YiA?3ibE3YiIwhbwNQpA38eA3ZipbAwNOAzIReEFbMwDBcudDno?BAAJeBAgbIAgbFAoUAAibEAoU4GhbQpwNAAEYAApUpbAQpA?A7eGcZBGhB7fBiaBnQB9CdliBXdB3gbI3gbH3ibG3ibJ3gb?L3gbC39eD3gbA3Qp9eD3hbwNQpKwC3hbwNYipbAwNOAzIRe?EFbMwDBcudDnoBAAXdBAgbIAgbHAibGAibJAgbLAgbCAFYD?AgbAAwNFYDAhbQpwN6GCAhbQpoUpbAwNAA7eDhmBSiBtAdl?gBlcB3gbI3gbH3ibG3ibJ3gbL3gbI3gbH3ibG3ibA3gbL3g?bI3gbH3ibF38ecDhbB3IwA3QppbAwNRAnCqhDh7UTASIzrD?OPVABhAAAAlcBAgbIAgbHAibGAibJAgbLAgbIAgbHAibGAi?bAAgbLAgbIAgbHAibFAEYkzhbBA4GAAwNpbAwNAA7eGBmBH?dB2gBMfBDTBNDdFjBzbB3gbI3gbH3ibG3ibJ3gbL3gbI3gb?H3ibG3ibA3gbL3gbI3gbH3ibG3ibF3gbP3gbG3tsgbG3ssM?RhbA3QpYiC38ecDrbAwNRAnCqhDh7UTASIzrDOPVABhAAAA?[/fumen]

I think it would be quite fun to play this way, because you'd be forced to change columns. Leaving a column open to make Tetrises over and over would be a bad idea, because those lines could be sent back easily.

That's what I assume to be a good rule.

• If you do a line-clear with a twist, all lines will be sent to your opponent.
• If you do a normal line-clear, all lines except the top line will be sent to your opponent.

This rule could work with both memoryless and bag randomizer.

[fumen]110@tblznblznblznblznblznblzmbA3lzlbB3lzlbB3lz?lbB3lzlbB3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3l?zjbB3hblzjbA3hbA3lzmbA3lztbZzVdAsI/dEFbsYEJ3UTA?zB88Aw1rhEyoo2ATPckDLBAAAocAAnbBAnbBAnbBAnbAAnb?AAobAAnbEYAAnbEYAAnbEYobEYvbC3mbC3mbC3pbAwNmAye?h1D0oo2AzuSrDlsCSASIyQEwXprDOP98A3M98Aw8WeDjxBA?A7eAOAPAAQdAAnbBAnbBAnbAAmb5Gnb4GAAkbC34GAAkbC3?HcAAA7eALQBudAAnbBAibC3NRAAmbNRCcAArbAAA7eAKQB1?doUrbAAmboUAAOcAAA7eBMxcEWBodC3mbC3pboUoboUxNAA?lb4GAAxNibAAnbA3BAmbB3BApbAgb7eBdAd1kBedC3OcAAh?boUkbA3gbAAgb4GUKgbAAibA3gbAA0lgbUKibBAgbA3pbAA?A[/fumen]

[Anonymous]

Hm, never thought of being able to choose where your opponent gets his garbage, but this certainly does sounds interesting.

[Maske]

faster players who have good physical ability tend to win a victory in recent games, such as TF and TOJ. To be honest, it seems to me that there is not much element of deep strategy like chess. Most versus games resembles that of a footrace, rather than versus games. So, I think your suggestion is significant.

Players can choose the penalty system called "slide" in Tetris Party Deluxe. I felt that the slide system was very tedious when I played with AI. However, according to my fiends, if the opponent was human, I heard it was so exciting. The slide system seems to have given rise to a element of strategy and tricks.

[fumen]110@tblznblznblznblznblznblzmbA3lzlbB3lzlbB3lz?lbB3lzlbB3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3l?zjbB3hblzjbA3hbA3lzmbA3lztbAIwlApF98AQ+brDFbsiD?hNVTASICvDFbsYEsuSrDFbsYE592rDNBAAA7eAZ7OdAsI/d?EFbsYEJ3UTAzB88Aw1rhEyoo2ATPckDLBAAAocAAnbBAnbB?AnbBAnbAAnbAAobAAnbEYAAkbC3EYAAkbC3EYlbC3EYlbC3?HcAwNmAyeh1D0oo2AzuSrDlsCSASIyQEwXprDOP98A3M98A?w8WeDjxBAAQdAAnbBAnbBAnbBAnbBAmbCAmbCAlbBAnbAAh?bAAobAAvbAwNAAqbC3mbC3mbC3mbC3lbB3nbB3nbA3obB3n?bB3nbB3nbB3nbB3nbB3nbB3kbCAB3kbCAB3kbCAB3kbCAB3?nbC3mbC3wbAAA7eAZKApbEYCAibC3EYCAibC3EYCAibC3EY?CAibC3JeAAA[/fumen]

[InkofDeath]

I was always puzzled as to why garbage was so random. It should be something more controllable by the players.

[yotipo91]

I was always puzzled as to why garbage was so random. It should be something more controllable by the players.

Same for me. However, I can't imagine it being nearly as fun nor fast paced as normal Tetris. It would be fun for awhile, but I doubt it would grow on me. If it was readily available in a multiplayer game mode like Cheese (Dig Race) on Cultris I'd probably do it as much as I do Cheese.

[Anonymous]

I also think it'd be easy to kill people if they had huge towers built up because you could just create a garbage hole under it. Although it could be good because it'd teach people to not build humongous towers and try to build a flat field.

[Integration]

^^ Build flat and downstack.

I doubt this kind of garbage would be more fun than normal garbage. It'd be nice to see it in King of Stackers though. Perhaps a Tetris should send 4 lines there, so it doesn't become endless.

[myndzi]

King of Stackers is far from endless  The only game mode that's had a problem with that is Air 2, which is experimental anyway. You do need to know your all spins to get the most out of it, though; I can see maybe two new players having a long game because they aren't using all the tools at their disposal.

TGM-style vs garbage has been suggested on more than one occasion, but the problem I have with it is that it sets up free spins. It's like Tetris tennis but worse. I do really like the idea of having some control over your opponent's garbage, but when you think about it, change on attack does exactly that. There is a deep strategic aspect to what garbage you send, cancel, and accept to be seen in KoS even without control over the horizontal placement

Also worth noting about KoS garbage is that it sends in reverse. This means that you can spike with a "cap" by comboing out or following with a double or triple, making the clean garbage harder to access. Conversely, you have to account for what they can or will likely counter.

[Integration]

TGM-style vs garbage has been suggested on more than one occasion, but the problem I have with it is that it sets up free spins. It's like Tetris tennis but worse.

I don't know what TGM style vs garbage is. Youtube doesn't hlp much there. I don't think that you'd always counter a spin garbage with the same spin, because your playfield will never be plane. You still can reverse each attack.

[fumen]110@7dB3gbA3hbA3hbE3hbH3hbH3gbI3ibG3pbOnxEA08t?aE7eA2UPFAzIRoDTBAAAPeBAgbAAhbAAhbEAhbAAnbA3xbA?wNEAU9zdE[/fumen]

[myndzi]

I don't know what TGM style vs garbage is. Youtube doesn't hlp much there. I don't think that you'd always counter a spin garbage with the same spin, because your playfield will never be plane. You still can reverse each attack.

[fumen]110@7dB3gbA3hbA3hbE3hbH3hbH3gbI3ibG3pbOnxEA08t?aE7eA2UPFAzIRoDTBAAAPeBAgbAAhbAAhbEAhbAAnbA3xbA?wNEAU9zdE[/fumen]

TGM vs garbage sends the piece shape in reverse, similar to what you describe in the OP.

[fumen]110@7dB3gbA3hbA3hbE3hbH3hbH3gbI3ibG3pbOnxEA08t?aE7eA2UPFAzIRoDTBAAAPeBAgbAAhbAAhbEAhbAAnbA3xbT?GPEAU9zdE7eAifBeeA3tsF3hbMRssF3pbAAA[/fumen]

Also:
[fumen]110@deE3hbG3hbD3pb3ZIdeD3hbI3hbC3pb0hBdeE3hbG3?hbD3pbAAA[/fumen]

[fumen]110@beH3ibH3gbB3pblaITeE3kbG3gbH3hbAAqbXYB7eCC?eBynBAAA[/fumen]

[fumen]110@/dH3hbG3ibG3gbI3hbH3gbB3pbtaITeG3gbB3mbAAg?bA3nbB3pbXTB7eAAAA[/fumen]

.. you get the picture. Now I acknowledge that strategically, these may be bad choices for this very reason, but I posit that there are very few good choices available thus reducing the strategic aspect rather than increasing it.

One last comment:

[fumen]110@tblznblznblznblznblznblzmbA3lzlbB3lzlbB3lz?lbB3lzlbB3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3lzkbC3l?zjbB3hblzjbA3hbA3lzmbA3lztbZzVdAsI/dEFbsYEJ3UTA?zB88Aw1rhEyoo2ATPckDLBAAAocAAnbBAnbBAnbBAnbAAnb?AAobAAnbEYAAnbEYAAnbEYobEYvbC3mbC3mbC3pbAwNmAye?h1D0oo2AzuSrDlsCSASIyQEwXprDOP98A3M98Aw8WeDjxBA?A7eAOAPAAQdAAnbBAnbBAnbAAmb5Gnb4GAAkbC34GAAkbC3?HcAAA7eALQBudAAnbBAibC3NRAAmbNRCcAArbAAA7eAKQB1?doUrbAAmboUAAOcAAA7eBMxcEWBodC3mbC3pboUoboUxNAA?lb4GAAxNibAAnbA3BAmbB3BApbAgb7eBdAd1kBedC3OcAAh?boUkbA3gbAAgb4GUKgbAAibA3gbAA0lgbUKibBAgbA3pbAA?A[/fumen]

Garbage like this is completely unbalanced because it's easy to send and hard to clear. This means the game will be lopsided and favor the first attacker (the faster player), who would simply do 2 or 3-wide combos for the reason demonstrated above. In the end, there needs to be a balance: the more garbage you are able to send, the easier it needs to be to clear out. See: original KoS, which had 100% garbage and allspins. The player that got first turn almost inevitably won, because it was almost impossible to make up the difference due to the garbage being too difficult to clear.

On top of that, your defensive options are worse too. You can defend only with what you build up yourself, since you can't use your garbage to combo through, get a free tetris, or stack spins on. Building your own attacks is a losing proposition; to win you need to incorporate your garbage as much as possible. So with garbage that isn't easy to clear, you have very little defensive (blocking/canceling) power, removing yet another strategic aspect of change on attack.

In the end, the amount of effort it takes to generate garbage needs to be about equivalent to the amount of effort it takes to clear it. Anything else is going to be imbalanced.

[Kitaru]

I think it's worth noting that all situations you posit are SRS-only and weren't relevant to Bloxeed's and TGM's Versus design. If the concept of positional/controlled garbage were to be introduced to a modern, SRS compliant system, it would of course need to be retooled to fit the expectations of the time.

[myndzi]

That's pretty much what I'm saying, except I'm also demonstrating why ;P

[Paradox]

I didn't read anything here but I looked at some of the visuals. I like the one that sends middle fingers at your opponent when you tspin.

[Rosti_LFC]

Or there's always the option of doing what Kiwamemichi Tetris does and using mini-stuns and piece removals with each item use to be so damn frequent and annoying that it becomes far more of a hindrance than any garbage that gets sent (as demo'd in the TC meet vod with much drunken yelling). Doesn't always have to be garbage lines that hurt your opponent

[Sisu]

Here's the Rosetta Stone:

http://www.twitch.tv/harddrop/b/407441520

Now what?