Let's get serious!

[Anonymous]

Oi caffeine, I didn't mean to suggest that I didn't like playing other people on SC2 (I do like playing real people, although it stresses me out sometimes). Just that when I play bots, I don't feel as bad when I lose. As opposed to when I play real people and lose, then I feel a lot worse.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
paradox and myndzi arguing
[/quote]

I'm going to have to agree with Myndzi on this one.

There's a point that has been made several times, but it bears repeating. Why should I go onto Nullpomino just to lose?

I see a lot of new people go onto Nullpomino, but after one time I never see them again. This could be because I rarely sign on, but I think it's more probable that they didn't like getting 20-0ed. So then they just go back to playing Tetris Friends where they can play with players of equal skill. This is the main problem Myndzi is trying to address.

If you want to attract players, there are two main ways: making your product more available/welcoming to incoming people or offering something different than your competitor.

Nullpomino has three main problems, the interface, the lack of player base, and gameplay.

Nullpomino 7.5 has such a confusing interface. It's really hard to navigate, there are way too many settings, and there's way too many buttons to choose from. Apparently, this will all be fixed in Nullpomino 8 though, so this shouldn't be a problem.

The lack of player base though, is a huge problem. Attracting new players isn't a huge problem with Nullpomino. As I said, I see a lot of new people play on Nullpomino. The main problem is keeping the new players. A lot of times, these players play in vs games only to get skunked (15-0ed). And then, they never come back to Nullpomino. All of the current players on Nullpomino are at a much higher level than new players. This is exactly why Myndzi wants to create a handicap. This won't necessarily create a larger player base, but new players might stick around longer if they see that they aren't getting completely destroyed.

Personally, I'm in favor of handicapping because it is a great tool for increasing your skill. For instance, football players run with those big parachute thingies behind them so that when they're on the field, they can run mega fast. Likewise, in Tetris, if you slow down, you see a lot of mistakes you make, and you can improve upon them. If you always go fast, you'll never see the little mistakes you make. I don't see why everyone makes such a big deal about handicaps.

I also think that Nullpomino should have a rating system similar to Blockbox where each person has a rating, and that rating determines their color, e.g. red, orange, yellow, green, blue etc. So that it's much easier for players to see who is around their level.

Gameplay, I don't mean that there is anything necessarily wrong with the garbage system or bags or anything. I mean that Nullpomino is the same damn game as Tetris Friends. I've made this point before, but all the recent games are the same thing over and over. Nullpomino, Tetris Friends, Tetris Party deluxe, Tetris DS... they're all the same thing. Oh wow, one of them has combos, the other one doesn't have combos (at least Tetris Battle is trying to be different with bombs though). I think this is the biggest reason that Nullpomino doesn't have a large player base. Nullpomino is pretty much a copy of Tetris Friends, but two steps behind.

Honestly, what does Nullpomino have that Tetris Friends doesn't? They both have marathon mode (honestly, all the different marathons on Nullpomino are the same thing to me), vs mode, 40 lines, ability to change das, probably other similar stuff too. The only thing I can think of that Nullpomino has that TF doesn't is dig race and dig challenge. But these modes are hard, and I don't think a lot of players (especially new players) like these modes (unless they're a masochist). Nullpomino offers pretty much the same thing as TF, but lacks a player base. If you really want to have a larger user base, be bold! Be different! Make Tetris RPG! (just sayin' c:)

I realize that I restated a lot of points from the thread, but I thought that some of the stuff needed repeating, and we were getting off topic. Man, I don't know how my responsese seem to take up so much space. I write like one paragraph, and then it becomes a whole essay.

[myndzi]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
I write like one paragraph, and then it becomes a whole essay.
[/quote]
Welcome to my world

Just to fill things in a little, I haven't even gotten to "why, how much, for how long" yet. I have two or three ideas on the table for ways to flatten the game out a little, but I'd like others if there are any. Why don't I talk about where I'm going with this though?

What I really have in mind is a recruiting push with the release of Nullpomino 8. You identified the major obstacles in your post, and the big one of "ease of use" should be tackled with version 8.

Everyone knows that major version revisions can mean major changes, and so even players who have tried it in the past may be more willing to try it again. Players who haven't tried it, or weren't able to figure it out, will be able to try too.

That leaves only the gameplay and the playerbase. Second thing to tackle is gameplay then.

These ideas being discussed are aimed at exactly that. Making the gameplay accessible with our current playerbase in a way that we have a game that our active players won't mind playing - because we're going to need them. If we do a recruiting push, we don't want to bring people to an empty game. (Note that I said "that our current players wouldn't mind playing" - if you don't like a handicap, then that's valid input... but I need alternatives. And if the reason you don't like handicaps is because you think you should be able to 20-0 someone if they aren't as good as you, then I don't see any alternatives you will like either, and that's unfortunate.)

Running some sort of ongoing tournament at the time (particularly if players can join at any time) would make a decent way to boost the activity of our existing players. Then we push long and hard - promote the hell out of Nullpo on TF, Facebook, or whatever, and try to get people to come check it out.

We don't have to have anything that TF doesn't (though we do). We just need to have a better game, and we have that. TF players are always complaining about various lag problems, and we can do something about that. We can give them more control over their controls and a more responsive, dedicated game.

In the end, there will always be a market for "Normal Tetris" - and we want a piece of that market. A big enough piece, hopefully, that we can relax whatever compromises we had to make to bring the players in and let our experts F*** around however they want. But until we reach that critical mass, it can only help our case to make things more accessible, not less.

I keep saying it, but this is not about making players win or lose - it's about making them want to stick around. The more casual players we convince to stay, the more players of equal skill new casual players will have to play against.

[Paul676]

I think serious discussion needs to be done on how to advertise Nullpo. Because 5 people saying "nullpo nullpo" won't get people. it's been tried, and not worked. I have a couple of ideas, the chief of which is link it to facebook as an app, like they did with blockbox. I hope NEURO can do that.

[myndzi]

"Ask me about my Nullpo" lolol - That comment space on the TF records could be pretty useful though.

I definitely agree that a web-based something would make it easier to spread. The less work someone has to do the better. Automatic click-to-play-as-guest would be the ultimate. I have some objections to Facebook apps in general, but I don't think they're likely to impact the kind of people who the Facebook app thing could get us.

It will pretty much come down to trying to bring people in from existing games though - either directly or indirectly. Best indirect way is some sort of competition - "Hey, are you gonna participate in the NULLPO OPEN 1 FOR A GRAND PRIZE OF $5 ?!"

I'll shell out a hundred bucks to make the prize worthwhile.

Since such a tournament wouldn't have winning as its primary goal, we would want to choose a format that ensures that many people play many games and have fun at it. This might be the final resting place for the Swiss tournament I've wanted to run

"But that could be so many games!" you say, and I say - well, if we have 500 people playing, F*** yeah. We could also cap it at 3 weeks or so and take the top players into a single or double elim.

Other ideas? Flyers? lol. I wonder what it costs to run an ad on TF >:)

[Paul676]

from facebook apps alone blockbox (a dead site, pretty much) still gets a good 20+ people a day. As long as Nullpo is tagged as something to do with tetris (how you'd do that without a TTC strop I don't know) then you'll get the people.

Tourneys are good but I don't think that idea would work to get interest from people who've never played nullpo before. You gotta put yourself into the mindset of someone who's never played it before...

[myndzi]

I mean more like one tourney as part of a "launch party" so to speak. For an initial draw (and hopefully retention) of a large number of players, not a long term solution...

[Paradox]

There are a few problems I see with the current situation. People only get crushed because there are not enough people playing for them to get matched at their skill level. Since those people get discouraged and quit, the playerbase never grows enough for it to get to that point.

I can see now that handicapping would increase the playerbase and rid us of that problem. In addition, casual players would not mind this concept and it would encourage them to play. In other ways I still believe it hurts the competitive side of tetris because it is without a doubt unfair from a competitive standpoint.

Here is what I propose:

In the short term have handicap be the only mode for now to increase the player base (as you suggested).

When the player base grows split up the players. The upper division would have no handicapped games. Players would only play within their division. TF has a division system similar to this wherein players only play within their division.

I would be perfectly fine with a system like that.

[coolmaninsano]

Other ideas? Flyers? lol. I wonder what it costs to run an ad on TF >:)

NullpoMino advertisements will be appearing in Tetris Online Poland sometime in the future. (I'm assuming you know this from IRC, just posting it so that others know).

[myndzi]

There are a few problems I see with the current situation. People only get crushed because there are not enough people playing for them to get matched at their skill level. Since those people get discouraged and quit, the playerbase never grows enough for it to get to that point.

I can see now that handicapping would increase the playerbase and rid us of that problem. In addition, casual players would not mind this concept and it would encourage them to play. In other ways I still believe it hurts the competitive side of tetris because it is without a doubt unfair from a competitive standpoint.

Here is what I propose:

In the short term have handicap be the only mode for now to increase the player base (as you suggested).

When the player base grows split up the players. The upper division would have no handicapped games. Players would only play within their division. TF has a division system similar to this wherein players only play within their division.

I would be perfectly fine with a system like that.

Divisions is certainly one approach we can take. In your suggestion it would be something closer to a forced "Expert+" - except in our case, Expert+ is more like SuperProMode.

Setting aside that for the moment, which would be more palatable: handicaps or gameplay modifications? The reason I favored things like slowing down the game is that it's NOT an unfair modification - both players are playing on the same footing, after all. I found this more appealing in general. If you had to choose, would you rather take a one-sided handicap or a global damping of the things that exaggerate the skill difference?

[Paul676]

a one-sided handicap, if I had to choose.

[Paradox]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]except in our case, Expert+ is more like SuperProMode.[/quote]

I don't think eliminating handicaps in an upper division makes it superpromode, it makes it a fair game for competitive players. That is already how Nullpo is anyway and I think nullpo is already almost perfect when it comes to high level competitive play. Do you disagree with that?
-------------------

I would choose handicaps over modifying the game. Delays are all about preference and I think people should be able to choose what they are comfortable with when it comes to competitive players.

I just really think that high-level play should not have limitations but for lower level play it shouldn't matter much anyway.

Also if you only modify the game delays /garbage and things like that, good players will still completely crush new players.

[myndzi]

I don't think eliminating handicaps in an upper division makes it superpromode, it makes it a fair game for competitive players.

I'm comparing Nullpo Unlimited to TF Expert+ here...

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
I would choose handicaps over modifying the game. Delays are all about preference and I think people should be able to choose what they are comfortable with when it comes to competitive players.

I just really think that high-level play should not have limitations but for lower level play it shouldn't matter much anyway.
[/quote]

Any potential settings changes could be phased out in high level vs just like a handicap could, mind.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Also if you only modify the game delays /garbage and things like that, good players will still completely crush new players.
[/quote]

I'm not sure we can answer this without testing. Yes, I agree that better players will still win - but the same is true of handicaps too. The choice here is between a "fair" modification to the default play and an "unfair" handicap, so to speak. But if it's not an acceptable compromise to anybody, then why bother testing?

[Paradox]

What kind of modifications are you talking about? we can easily test things like delay settings on nullpo and see how well lower level players do against people better then compare that performance to a regular game.


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--] - but the same is true of handicaps too[/quote]

I don't think that the better players will completely crush with handicaps . They might lose or at least the games would feel a lot closer for both players. I think that would be good for new players rather than them losing in the first 10 seconds (which is also a problem with the garbage system).


[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]But if it's not an acceptable compromise to anybody, then why bother testing?[/quote]

I've stated that I don't mind what happens in lower level play because it won't bother the new players and they might not even know about it.  Handicapping will probably be the way to go imo.

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying adding a handicap won't help, but I think you guys are overestimating adding a handicap. Most new players that come to Nullpomino have a 40 lines time of like, 1 minute, sometimes more. Most Nullpomino players have 40 lines times of like 30-40 seconds. This is a huge time difference.

If you're going to add a handicap to the game, it's going to have to be a big handicap.

blah blah blah, consider adding bots because they have a lot of variability.

[Paradox]

with a good rating system handicaps can be calibrated right?