Understanding natural rotations

myndzi · August 04, 2011, 03:08:04 PM

I needed a place to put this fumen I made, and figured a thread devoted to this topic wouldn't be bad. With Allspins on the rise, and eventually the distinction between natural rotations and kicks to be more important, I figure that a central location for this info would be good

Post some other situations you would like me to diagram and I'll add them to the OP.

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Visualizing the natural rotation of the S piece.
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Basic horizontal I manipulation.
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Which way, Jay?!
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Our friend, the T piece
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belzebub · August 04, 2011, 03:13:17 PM

Awesome thanks!!!!!!!

myndzi · August 04, 2011, 05:15:29 PM

Added a fumen for the I piece, since it's so confusing

belzebub · August 05, 2011, 12:51:50 AM

Really nice!!! I studied the SRS for a while, it's actually quite logical. I didn't really digged deep in the offset calculation mechanism from the "true rotation" system, I suppose the normal rotation system is enough to understand.

I can follow the kicks algorithmically with the translations, but I'm trying to figure out if there is some "logical" way of why this numbers are what they are..

Magnanimous · August 05, 2011, 01:01:06 AM

myndzi needs some kind of award for his work in the field of Tetris Theory.

myndzi · August 05, 2011, 01:38:13 AM

Quote from: belzebub
Really nice!!! I studied the SRS for a while, it's actually quite logical. I didn't really digged deep in the offset calculation mechanism from the "true rotation" system, I suppose the normal rotation system is enough to understand.

I can follow the kicks algorithmically with the translations, but I'm trying to figure out if there is some "logical" way of why this numbers are what they are..

Officially, it's something like "away from the left wall, away from the right wall, away from the floor". I may have got the order wrong.

Also officially, the intent is to provide "visual rotation points" for each of the kicks so that they appear to pivot around some obvious point on or near the block. Really, trying to calculate it from the kick table in the wiki is pretty much the opposite of useful.

I'd say if you really want to know the kicks well, play King of Stackers. I'm not saying this because I like to promote KoS, but because it really affords you the need and the opportunity to learn about the pieces in intimate detail. Also try testing out kicks in fumen by drawing shapes and seeing what happens, or blocking specific points and seeing what happens. There is a repertoire of common and useful twists that I'm not sure is documented anywhere, and there are also some odd but occasionally useful ones that might not ever be prevalent in live games. Even though there are only four kicks, there are also four rotation states and each kick tends to "look" different. I feel like it's more useful to learn how they look and get a general feel for what works than to try and calculate in your head what's going to happen. The visual rotation points support this.

perfectclear · August 05, 2011, 01:57:24 AM

Quote from: myndzi
Even though there are only four kicks, there are also four rotation states and each kick tends to "look" different.

I feel like this may be a bit misleading. a kick that works in one direction from a state wont necessarily work in another direction from the rotated state. for example the TST kick wont work if you were to set up the TST setup sideways (such as that if it were to work the T would end up flat side down)
if that doesnt make sense I could make a fumen, just ask

myndzi · August 05, 2011, 02:24:48 AM

^^ He was talking about learning the kick table, I was explaining why it's a little counterproductive. That's another reason why: not all the kicks are useful in all cases. Also IIRC there are different kicks for horizontal vs vertical orientations - but there are still only four kicks that a given state + rotation can generate.

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Did one for J too. Originally I added a little bonus, but the request was 10k characters long and the server didn't like that. You can see it by loading this into fumen:

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Zircean · August 05, 2011, 09:05:47 AM

Quote from: myndzi
Also officially, the intent is to provide "visual rotation points" for each of the kicks so that they appear to pivot around some obvious point on or near the block. Really, trying to calculate it from the kick table in the wiki is pretty much the opposite of useful.

Visual rotation points are completely necessary if you want to be able to understand SRS. It's the only reason that I am reasonably sure of what I am doing when I play this system (which, admittedly, is only in KoS, but it still counts )

Quote from: myndzi
I'd say if you really want to know the kicks well, play King of Stackers. I'm not saying this because I like to promote KoS, but because it really affords you the need and the opportunity to learn about the pieces in intimate detail.

THIS THIS THIS

I feel like I know more allspins than most people who play SRS because of KoS and that is kind of silly, if you ask me After I started playing KoS, I went back to TF for a very brief spell and found myself doing allspin fixes almost to a fault...

vipjun · August 05, 2011, 04:50:05 PM

+1

hey this is really good for those of us that are kind of spatially impaired like me.

myndzi · August 05, 2011, 06:29:34 PM

One more.

belzebub · August 09, 2011, 02:00:28 AM

I am trying to get an intuitive feeling on the kicks by trying them out in the fumen, however it's difficult too visualize. So I was thinking of looking up the Pivot points, but it seems counter intuitive to me as what happened when i opened the kick tables/fumen.

I took the first test of only rotations to the right from the T tetrimino, as it is the most well known I suppose. It's kick table is as follows:

Rotation (Test 1) (Test 2)
0->R ( 0, 0) (-1, 0)
R->2 ( 0, 0) (+1, 0)
2->L ( 0, 0) (+1, 0)
L->0 ( 0, 0) (-1, 0)

Test1 is the natural rotation, test 2 is the first basic kick. So the equations are

X = -0 = 2
Y = 0

I tried Karnaugh mapping etc to get a grasp on the logic, but can't really find a logic in it. So maybe it's intuitive when we fumen it? Let's see:

[fumen]110@WeA3gbE39bloxXASeh1D0oo2Ay3WeD0488AQrVRAz3?jBA7eBdxqOAyeh1D0oo2Ay3WeD0oBAAdxqMAJ22hEJP2kEl?46ACTeC3gbA3gbAAgbAA+b1oqXASeh1D0oo2AS3WeD0488A?wWWRAzXxBA7eANoqGAPkTABlLBAA1dD3jbF3jbE3kbB3jbA?AgbA3gbA3gbT3pbNiqXASeh1D0oo2AS3WeD0488AQbWRAzX?pAA7eAlyc1dDAjbFAjbEAkbFAgbJAgbNApbdBd7eA1wqSA3?8zdEFb82Dzoo2AjHnGEP2BAAUcUpjbQpkbQpibQpkbQpobQ?pnbRpmbQpnbRpmbRpnbQpobQpRcAA3bVnqcA0H98AwhMDEF?bEcEoY0rDl8NSATJUABG46AC[/fumen]

I can get some feeling for it, but it's not all clear. It's like it's not the result of a pure momentum that is forced on the Tetrimino, but it seems like the combination of a momentum + diagonal force...

Actually I was expecting the T to pivot around it's back, that would have been more intuitive to me.

How do you see it?

Sorry if this is the wrong thread to post!

myndzi · August 09, 2011, 02:06:27 AM

The intuitive sense comes from seeing each piece kick in each situation many times. There is a pretty sharp difference between vertical and horizontal orientation behavior as well.

As you can see, the horizontal -> vertical first kicks behave the same way, in the same rotational direction. The other two "push" away from their respective walls in a fairly natural way. I'm not sure why you are using non-comparable diagrams to diagram comparable kicks.

belzebub · August 09, 2011, 02:26:07 AM

Quote from: myndzi
The intuitive sense comes from seeing each piece kick in each situation many times. There is a pretty sharp difference between vertical and horizontal orientation behavior as well.

As you can see, the horizontal -> vertical first kicks behave the same way, in the same rotational direction. The other two "push" away from their respective walls in a fairly natural way. I'm not sure why you are using non-comparable diagrams to diagram comparable kicks.

Now you said that I can see both the horizontal and vertical starting positions behave the same for both rotations.

Sorry if the comparison was not correct, it's because I was confused creating the situations. Is this a more correct fumen?

[fumen]110@NeA3McVaxBAvAAAA7eLthqOASeh1D0oo2AS3WeD0oB?AA9iqNAMI/dEFbUpCPP0dEFBAAAtnqAAFoqOASeh1D0oo2A?y3WeD0oBAAVoqNAMI/dEFbUVEPP0dEFBAAA9mqBAyAAAAVm?qOASeh1D0oo2Ay3WeD0oBAAFmqNAMI/dEFbUVEPP0dEFBAA?AFsqBASAAAA9sqOASeh1D0oo2AS3WeD0oBAAtrqNAMI/dEF?bUpCPP0dEFBAAAtrqMAp12hEJP2kEl46AC[/fumen]

I only block the rotation point it seems. Maybe that's what the first test is "if the rotation point is blocked, and you go vertical, try to jump over it and still fit, if you go horizontal, try to get out of the way".

myndzi · August 09, 2011, 02:17:03 PM

The "intuitive" explanations for the kick order are as follows:

Away from the right wall
Away from the left wall
Away from the floor
Out of a pit on the right
Out of a pit on the left

As you can see, in the horizontal rotations, the T moves away from an obstacle to the sides; in the vertical rotations it still moves away from an obstacle to the sides.

Once you've blocked both left and right movements, then you'll see up and down movements.

Understanding natural rotations

perfectclear