Tetris Tournament Online 2 Suggestions

[KeroKai]

pretty much all completive players are already on harddrop and can play of any major game (tf, toj, nullpo, bb). so why would we pick worse game? don't makes any sense. does 100 extra random people really make tournament that much better?

i think of on major goals of tto was to stimulate tcc/toa/whatever to focus bit more on competition, time will tell if that was worth it or just waste of time. sure we will do more in this direction, but i kinda feel it's their move now.

as for your prizes concern, do you assume they will keep sponsoring harddrop tournaments? because this is not necessarily true.

well i know some people here don't believe clones will be ever popular thus are not worth attention. but keep in mind some people here don't believe official games will be ever descent quality thus are not worth attention.

competition scene on both official games and clones is very small (and those are very same people) and have some obstacles, but some people have faith that it can grow, so this is why we do what we do.

We already have lots of tournaments created within harddrop. If that's all we were trying to achieve with TTO2 then there'd be no point in making a big deal out of it. I'm going to have to agree here with Rosti and xxkay that it'd make little sense to host it on a platform that not many people will be interested or accustomed to playing on. The focus isn't on the best players or harddrop players, but for people who are interested in tetris, this includes the more casual players on TF. You can tell just by the simple fact that there was hundreds of players watching the final match between Blink and Hebo.

There's no way any other platform will be able to replicate what was done on TTO. I'm certain of that. Perhaps something of this could be achieved on TOJ, but we'd be looking at a completely different userbase signing up for the tournament.

[coolmaninsano]

Almost four times (maybe more) as many people watched the finals than people who signed up. That means some of them will want to participate in the next tournament. Not many of them will go out of their way to get Nullpo or TOJ. They'll just want to play. I'd prefer it on TOJ or Nullpo, but logically it should stay on TF.

[Wojtek]

if number of players on given game is what matter most, let's make future tournament on neave tetris (far more popular than tf) or hangame tetris (also far more popular than tf).

[coolmaninsano]

if number of players on given game is what matter most, let's make future tournament on neave tetris (far more popular than tf) or hangame tetris (also far more popular than tf).

Touché.

But are we trying to make competitive Tetris more popular? Or have good tournaments? I say one more on TF then switch to another game.

[larrytetris]

Competitive tetris isn't too appealing when you get crushed by Blink in round 1.

Translation: have multiple tiers or something. One for sub 1 minute sprints and one for super-1 minute sprints. The tiers can mix and match toward the end (bottom half of top tier plays top half of bottom tier) or some other epic thing like that. Custom brackets.

Perhaps, 2x elimination the whole way through (organizers, don't be lazy? ) Share the burden of updating the brackets with other HD members Blink!

[Kitaru]

...it'd make little sense to host it on a platform that not many people will be interested...

The only reason that people don't play on Nullpomino is that people don't play on Nullpomino; it's a Catch-22 and nothing more. If there is some legitimate reason people are not playing besides that, then they're doing the developers a disservice by keeping it to themselves.

...or accustomed to playing on.

There is no "accustomed to playing on" when Nullpomino can behave like just about any Tetris game. If it is missing something that someone would like, it can be provided.

You can tell just by the simple fact that there was hundreds of players watching the final match between Blink and Hebo.

This was on account of promotion done by The Tetris Company -- something we're not necessarily guaranteed in the future.

[KeroKai]

The only reason that people don't play on Nullpomino is that people don't play on Nullpomino; it's a Catch-22 and nothing more.

It is a catch-22. But... it's pretty much discussed in other threads about how Nullpomino just isn't that newbie friendly both in regards to user interface but more importantly skill level. The good thing is we can change the level of accessibility but I doubt it'll change the dynamics that much.

While nullpomino is a decent platform for competitive play. If the objective is to draw attention to the idea that tetris can be played competitively, something like TF which has access to all skill level ranges would be a much better option.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
If there is some legitimate reason people are not playing besides that, then they're doing the developers a disservice by keeping it to themselves. There is no "accustomed to playing on" when Nullpomino can behave like just about any Tetris game. If it is missing something that someone would like, it can be provided.[/quote]

It'd basically come down to familarity. Even if Nullpomino can be customised to behave like any games. It'll never be able to replicate some of the stuff that TF has. In the same way, TOJ has it's own atmosphere that neither games will be able to replicate.

Switching the tournament platform to another game would just cause alot of people to not signup imo. But, it's always worth a shot. Why not start up TTO1.5 without official prizes and all that and see what the turn out is?

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
This was on account of promotion done by The Tetris Company -- something we're not necessarily guaranteed in the future.
[/quote]

I'll give you that. But, wasn't one of the major points behind TTO the promotion and access of competitive play to the slightly more casual tetris players. Otherwise, it's what I said earlier. We've already got countless of harddrop tournaments already that are held on Nullpomino/TOJ or BB.  But that's more just focused on ourselves.

if number of players on given game is what matter most, let's make future tournament on neave tetris (far more popular than tf) or hangame tetris (also far more popular than tf).

You're missing the point. One of TTO's objective was to advertise tetris as a competitive game to a large audience. Hangame and TOJ would work as well as TF in this regard, except they are aimed at a completely different audience (for obvious reasons).

It's not about how popular the game is, even though popularity influences the size of the audience. It's about the accessbility.

[Wojtek]

You're missing the point. One of TTO's objective was to advertise tetris as a competitive game to a large audience. Hangame and TOJ would work as well as TF in this regard, except they are aimed at a completely different audience (for obvious reasons).

It's not about how popular the game is, even though popularity influences the size of the audience. It's about the accessbility.

Large audience = popular game, no?
Accessbility? Can you explain why do you think TF is more accessible than other games?

let me compare accessibility of nullpomino and tf:
tf blocks users from some countries, nullpo does not.
tf is available in 1 language (english), nullpo is available in 2 languages (english and japanese)
tf require internet access to be used, nullpo does not require internet access to be used.

[Kitaru]

It is a catch-22. But... it's pretty much discussed in other threads about how Nullpomino just isn't that newbie friendly both in regards to user interface but more importantly skill level. The good thing is we can change the level of accessibility but I doubt it'll change the dynamics that much.

User interface I'll give you, -- and that is something that is being worked on -- but neither skill level nor player base are aspects of the game itself. If people hop on Tetris Friends directly without taking so much as a quick peek at Nullpomino, then they're just perpetuating the problem.

While nullpomino is a decent platform for competitive play. If the objective is to draw attention to the idea that tetris can be played competitively, something like TF which has access to all skill level ranges would be a much better option.

Sorry to say it, but beginners are going to get just as much destroyed on the game that they play as one that they don't (that acts like the one they play anyway). All of the sign ups came from or due to the efforts of the Hard Drop community either way; it isn't like being on another game earned us any help in terms of help getting sign-ups.

It'd basically come down to familarity. Even if Nullpomino can be customised to behave like any games. It'll never be able to replicate some of the stuff that TF has. In the same way, TOJ has it's own atmosphere that neither games will be able to replicate.

Like? Name one functional thing we can't do. (Don't say lag.)

Switching the tournament platform to another game would just cause alot of people to not signup imo. But, it's always worth a shot. Why not start up TTO1.5 without official prizes and all that and see what the turn out is?

If you have someone who participated in TTO1 and told them "hey we're doing another tournament on this game that performs better but is otherwise just as good or better," what on Earth would compel them to not enter? If they have some reason, I want to hear about it.

I'll give you that. But, wasn't one of the major points behind TTO the promotion and access of competitive play to the slightly more casual tetris players.

If you go back to Blink's initial "Competitive Tetris Scene Rant" thread, you'll see the whole movement started because we wanted TTC to take notice of the competitive scene and actually do something about it. We did the tournament on Tetris Friends because they were willing to start working with us on some of the big issues with the rules and even donate some great prizes. We weren't necessarily going out of our way to promote "ease of access" by moving to TF. Given that we had to do all the promotion ourselves, I'd say there shouldn't be any functional change in terms

Otherwise, it's what I said earlier. We've already got countless of harddrop tournaments already that are held on Nullpomino/TOJ or BB.  But that's more just focused on ourselves.

If we're not actually furthering the competitive scene and getting people to stick around, what does it matter? Blink thinks something like 50~70 players dropped out in the first round anyway. I think this one was just as much "focused on ourselves" as the rest.

[mippo]

At this point before making any decisions on future tourneys,
I think it might be helpful for Blink and maybe a few other people to have a chat with TTC (Jmac?)and actually evaluate the tourney (if they can be reached)..

Were they happy with the tourney and the turn out, would they be willing to give prizes for another tourney in the future, are they willing to make additional changes to Arena?
and a lot of other questions could be discussed.

[chopin]

User interface I'll give you, -- and that is something that is being worked on

Yessss please, a better interface with complex settings but organized. Less Space Invaders text too... if you know what I mean. For the most part, a book needs a good cover before a lot of people will read it. I'd like to see the design pretty, futuristic, and fun with a lot of display options, somewhat TOJ-esque but with it's own original taste. TOJ is a good-looking game though - it's simple and it's pretty. I could do with an option to turn of sparkles though...

[Ukrainian4Life]

Competitive tetris isn't too appealing when you get crushed by Blink in round 1.

Translation: have multiple tiers or something. One for sub 1 minute sprints and one for super-1 minute sprints. The tiers can mix and match toward the end (bottom half of top tier plays top half of bottom tier) or some other epic thing like that. Custom brackets.

Perhaps, 2x elimination the whole way through (organizers, don't be lazy? ) Share the burden of updating the brackets with other HD members Blink!

Double elimination for everyone along with multiple tiers is a great idea.  

[KeroKai]

Large audience = popular game, no?
Accessbility? Can you explain why do you think TF is more accessible than other games?

let me compare accessibility of nullpomino and tf:
tf blocks users from some countries, nullpo does not.
tf is available in 1 language (english), nullpo is available in 2 languages (english and japanese)
tf require internet access to be used, nullpo does not require internet access to be used.

Like I mentioned beforehand. It's not about the popularity of the game. Otherwise I'd also be suggesting something like tetrisDS for it's large amount of exposure, in the same manner that you brought up Nblox.

But if we're going down this line of path.

1.Nullpomino requires installation and complex setting up (This is changing however)
2.Nullpomino isn't really capable of capturing large amounts of people as it'd probably just end up endangering itself as a clone. (This was a reason brought up for why people were wary of advertising Nullpomino in a large manner)

Given that most players come to tetrisfriend via facebook. I'd say that it certainly has access to a larger audience, even if they have limitations (country barriers). One could say exactly the same thing about TOJ and Hangame if it weren't for patches and so fourth. Besides, I don't think it's really a problem that things are english for japanese players. English is the international language, and I'm willing to bet that more japanese people understand english (perhaps not fluently) than the reverse scenario. The last point about offline/online play is moot since we're discussing tetris tournament.

You seem to be under the impression that I really like TF (Which I do) and somehow hate Nullpomino. But that's not the case at all. I think Nullpomino is good for reasons suggested. I just think that something like TF would be more aligned towards the purpose of drawing attention to tetris tournaments. Unless there's a drastic change in the user count for the other clones.

Suggesting that people go try out Nullpomino when they are just entering the TF tournament for fun is most likely going to end up resulting in a people dropping~ more than what already dropped out. It doesn't serve the purprose of advertisement even if the gameplay itself is much more fluid.

User interface I'll give you, -- and that is something that is being worked on -- but neither skill level nor player base are aspects of the game itself. If people hop on Tetris Friends directly without taking so much as a quick peek at Nullpomino, then they're just perpetuating the problem.

Well, that's a problem with Nullpomino being advertised as discussed in previous threads. You can't really expect people to sign up for Nullpomino, if there's nobody around their own skill level to play with. The game just doesn't have a growing population in the same way that TOJ/Hangame/TF has. Blockbox has a growing population, but it's much more smaller so the end result is that it doesn't have many players. There's just not enough players to generate the momentum required to expand, at least in my eyes. I'm still hoping it does though one day.

Tetrisfriend has essentially captured people in two ways.
1. It's the first thing that comes up when searching tetris (This is impossible to counter)
2. I'm willing to bet that a large amount of players also start off something like facebook tetris first.

The way I see it, Nullpomino can provide something that tetrisfriend can't and that's pretty much something like Dig Race + Survival. Casual players will be interested in those.

Regarding the last point about people taking on the first game they want, and then ignoring others. Unfortunately, that's just how things work. People become attach to one version, and are unwilling to change to a new version. There's plenty of theories on attachment etc.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Sorry to say it, but beginners are going to get just as much destroyed on the game that they play as one that they don't (that acts like the one they play anyway). All of the sign ups came from or due to the efforts of the Hard Drop community either way; it isn't like being on another game earned us any help in terms of help getting sign-ups.[/quote]

They will get destroyed, but it's more just the simple fact that they can at least be involved in the process. I personally feel that there'd be a lot less people signing up and expressing interest in watching if we held it on another platform. But you hold the opposite viewpoint, that it was mostly harddrop players signing up anyway. I don't know how much influence the game being on TF had on people getting involved so I'll drop this issue and agree with you, as you were behind that process.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
Like? Name one functional thing we can't do. (Don't say lag.)[/quote]

The keyword here being functional. I know that Nullpomino is capable of replicating stuff which is fantastic. However what I was discussing wasn't game mechanics. Part of the problem is the community, and the atmosphere of the place (which user-interface will also have an influence on).

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]
If you have someone who participated in TTO1 and told them "hey we're doing another tournament on this game that performs better but is otherwise just as good or better," what on Earth would compel them to not enter? If they have some reason, I want to hear about it.
If you go back to Blink's initial "Competitive Tetris Scene Rant" thread, you'll see the whole movement started because we wanted TTC to take notice of the competitive scene and actually do something about it. We did the tournament on Tetris Friends because they were willing to start working with us on some of the big issues with the rules and even donate some great prizes. We weren't necessarily going out of our way to promote "ease of access" by moving to TF. Given that we had to do all the promotion ourselves, I'd say there shouldn't be any functional change in terms
If we're not actually furthering the competitive scene and getting people to stick around, what does it matter? Blink thinks something like 50~70 players dropped out in the first round anyway. I think this one was just as much "focused on ourselves" as the rest.
[/quote]

Attachment. Familarity. Fear of Change. A game may look exactly the same, but it won't be exactly the same. Having said that, I'm up for holding a large scale Nullpomino tournament with the same signup procedures. It'd be interesting to see the outcome.

I guess at the end of the day. If you're really capable of promoting Nullpomino to the audience that is usually captured by TetrisFriend then I'm all up for it. But otherwise it'd just make more sense to utilise them to gain access to these audience.

It might have been focused on ourselves towards the end. Given the same names will turn up at the end of the tournament, but in the beginning it was open to alot of other players as well. It's the only reason I see it as different to the tournaments that we usually do here on harddrop.

PS. I don't mind reading your replies but I'll probably stop here before this becomes some massive drawn out discussion where we might not end up agreeing on whatever points.

[Profane]

It makes sense to try and recreate the success of TTO1 because of the growing awareness of competitive play,  but you can't rush it.  Really it's our job as HD memebers to further promote our game.  I actually found this community because of Blink.  I did like most people did and found TF from facebook and was mesmerized by Blink which lead me to Tetris Concept which lead me here.  What you need to do is allow the 'public' to view members as iconic to the game.  I know it sounds a bit dramatic but it's true.  When you think of Tetris it helps to associate it with certain memebers.  Having multiple tournies with that many viewers will allow the casual fan to familiarize themselves with the best players, coupled with the chance to play with the best will lure them in.  Then they will follow the better players to the Nulls and the Blockboxes and what not.  I personally don't think one tourny is gonna have the effect you're looking for with new members.  

kind of long winded but i support having the TTO2 on TF even though i prefer Null.  Although i'm mostly a BB player lol.  It would be really really cool to see tetris in the future grow into something like Poker has,  Where maybe you could have big tournies on TOJ, TF, Null, BB and then finish the year or 'seasons' with a grand tourny that could include all the top participants of each event.  kind of like a grand championship.

[meow]

It's fine to have a tournament on TF once in a while. TF is good for bringing more players to HD and also raising awareness that competitive tetris exists. But that is about all it is good for in its current state.

It's best if we don't ever have a TTO again. For one thing, it wasn't even considered an official tournament. Remember that they backed out on us. If an official game is to be used for a tournament, it should be named a HDO(x) tournament. Naming it TTO gives the misconception that the tournament is above HDO status and that TF is the best game.

So, TTO2 should be HDOX instead. Does TTC need special status for the tournaments for their sub-par games? Are they unwilling to donate prizes if it was named HDOX? Or do we just want to suck on TTC's dick?