Expert HD Mode (Tetris Friends)

[meow]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Changes to Expert PLUS:

+ Combo sends garbage starting on combo 2 rather than 1
+ EZ T-spins send 1 line instead of 0
+ Garbage hole is changed on each attack rather than on each add to the field.
+ No or reduced line clear delay
+ Even Faster SoftDrop / Sonic Drop
+ ALL spins rewarded like on Tetris Party Deluxe
+ No auto-handicapping whatsoever[/quote]

I like all of these changes. I've mentioned the first 5 countless times.  

I would like no line clear delay at all, but perhaps 1 frame for the animation is okay. Garbage rising animation should be eliminated or reduced to 1 frame max.

ALL spins rewarded like Tspins is not cool. It's way too gimmicky, they should have stopped at T's which have overtaken Tetrises already. TPD's reward of B2B and +1 line is decent but all of this depends on how spins are detected.

I do not want the game to turn into something like this:

[fumen]105@JeC3gbI3gbI3gbI3gbF3pbnDI7eOBTBGPBlRBMQBLP?BFTBCXBhXBlbBOaBScBhdBEbBDXBAAA[/fumen]

Spin double, spin double, spin double etc. Someone will probably come up with some easy infinite setup and then we will regret ever moving towards rewarding every spin so well.

Kitaru mentioned something about immobile twist detection. I hope the Tspin minis from TOJ still count under this system.

Here are some situations where I believe lines should and shouldn't be added:

[fumen]105@neI3qbV7j7eA9zqaAxno2AsOprDFb8bDE388Awd0TA?SI6/DhGCAAdeH3obBAqb9zqAA7eAV4qaAxno2AsOprDFb8b?DE388Awd0TASI6/DhGCAAdeHAobB3qbSzqAA7eA6zqvApoo?2AU91JEroo2AU9taEFb82Dzoo2A0SC5Du788Awt2TASYlNE?voo2AmC6CAkeC3jbBAibA3pbvxqAA7eAnxqVAzymrDFb8bD?zoo2AU9UTASYL0AqAAAAZeD39bvxqAA7eAnxqXAxno2AsOp?rDFbsYEl42aEFb0sDJGdCAOeE3vbA3mbA3ubSxqAA7eA6xq?XAxno2AsOprDFbsYEl42aEFb0sDJGdCA[/fumen]

Combos starting at 2 is nice. Faster soft drop speeds reduces the relative power of combos a lot. Spins are pathetically weak because so much time is wasted dropping pieces. Limiting the height of the playfield is another way to reduce the power of 4wide center openings (pieces above a certain height are cut off).

IF the combo tables need to be changed, I think 0 0 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5+ would be good.

TOJ is well balanced with the exception of combo starts. If you want to know whether additions will balanced and not break the game, you should compare it with that.


Btw, please fix garbage blocking. Sometimes lines rise after I'm starting a combo when they shouldn't. Is this due to lag?

[Kitaru]

This may be deviating a bit much from guideline, but I'd kind of like to see a game do something simple like any Immobile twist adding +1. Any spin single would be +1, any spin double would be +2, and any spin triple (*sigh*) would be +3.

If you want the EZ TSS still, I suppose you could use 3-corner to check for those if it doesn't pass Immobile. As much as I love using them, it doesn't really have a lot of reason for existing over the same "twist" with other pieces.

[meow]

Uhh, just read some of the last posts...

With regards to changing the B2B to add in a different column, consider the fumen diagrams in my last post. I think such a change is too drastic. B2B isn't as weak as some of you might think, same with the clean garbage. I think this perceived weakness is due to the slow soft drop speed.

And yes, +2 B2B for Tspin triple plz

[Spirale]

THe most important for me is sonic drop or faster slow drop, it should be on top of the priority list.
The rest I agree with but its pretty much accessory.

[chopin]

I think that B2B line sends being random is good and I don't think it will be too drastic. Anything that will have B2B will (usually) be at least 4 lines, so the spacing out is good. It will give a little obstacle so it won't be as easy for your opponent to just return the garbage. It's a good enough incentive reward to make you want to keep/go for B2B. It's somewhat worthless at the moment. I just trash the B2B (i.e. just harddrop a T-Spin Mini before Tetris).

[meow]

B2Bs were never supposed to be super powerful, but I've never felt that they were worthless (on TOJ/nullpo). It's a nice bonus add and forces your opponent to use a stick in the column ensuring that you receive clean garbage back.

It's like a tennis rally, the extra line is pushing your opponent back a bit further. It doesn't seem like much forcing your opponent back but it does limit their options and they're forced to return an easy shot for you.

I can't say for sure how drastic the changes will be. The rallies may not last as long, it might even decrease the power of B2B (eg. tspin triple sends 6/2 instead of 8 forcing 2 sticks), the game might turn into whoever can force their opponent on the defensive followed by a spammage of B2B spins wins.

[Ravendarksky]

My Vote:

YES to weakening combos. Not too much though.

YES to garbage hole moving per attack

YES to all twists being rewarded, but MUST be within reason. It's too easy to just know all the spins and be rewarded for your missdrops with Z doubles and L doubles. I'd reward them with one extra line each and that's it. IE a L spin triple sends a triple + 1

YES to no auto handicapping

NO to 180 twists

NO to sonic drop/zero line delay, it favours uber speed over skill.

Of course you can say that speed is based on skill, but there comes a point where you want to give us slower players a chance to beat speed daemons if we play well enough and line delay and slower soft drop allow for this. Removing them up punishes US a lot while only benefiting you a tiny bit.
Sure you could argue that the whole point of this is to have uber elite settings for HD only, but I see HD more as a tetris community rather than an elitist organisation. Leave zero line delay and sonic drop for nullpominio, which is always going to be less laggy and more for the elite than TF can ever be. We should be trying to make HD rules the most balanced possible, not simply as a means of faster players destroying everyone. That hardly seems balanced to me.


Other stuff I'd like to see (FEATURES NOT RULESET)

More detailed stats on games (I know not really a HD only mode feature but I thought i'd mention it) Ie total lines (lines sent + cancel lines), lines received

Team balancing. Don't start game with odd number of players, either start with 4 or wait for 6. option for team with lower players to overrule this and start at disadvantage.

1-10 DAS AR rather than 1-5

No more targeting crosshair, it's too easy to target people who are about to die if you aren't in a similar position.

Instant death when you top out OR allow people to try and save by placing blocks as the screen rises
(Currently it allows you to place a block but in reality you are dead. Many people notice this when being killed while halfway through dropping an i stick into a hole)
[fumen]105@hcB3jbA3gbA3gbB3ibB3gbE3hbB3gbE3gbC3gbE3gb?C3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3g?bC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3qbA4GceQpobQpobQ?ppbAAA0dQpobQpobQpobQpHcAAACdQpobQpobQpobQpobQp?vcAAA7eAOoAXcB3hbJwA3gbA3lbYiibA3hbA3pbQpYiPdA3?hbAAhbQppbZsbNcB3hbJwA3gbA3lbYiibA3hbA3pbQpYiPd?A3hbAAhbQpzb5wb5bB3hbJwA3gbA3gbB3hbIwB3gbB3hbA3?hbYiibA3hbA3QpYinbQpYiFdA3hbAAhbQpibA3hbAAhbQp9?b5TcSpibB3hbQpIwA3RpgbB3hbQpB3gbQpA3hbA3gboUYiw?NQpgbA3hbA3QpoUxNlbQpYi0bwNQpwNkbxNhbwNkbxNgbQp?mbxNqbxNlbwNQpxNkbxNgbwNlbwNgbQpwNlbxNQphbAAhbQ?pibA3gbyNgbQpjbxNQpgbwNjbxNibwNgbAAhbwNhbA3gbwN?gbAAhbwNhbA3gbwNqbAQpLAmbAuC0brwCJnoBA[/fumen]

[Noogy]

not approving 180s AND nerfing all spins is a bad idea. then people would never do L/J/S/Z triples!

i would also like to add

-15 second timer between matches should be removed between matches or a ready system
-each room should have a "host" like priv rooms

[crzy242]

no faster soft drop speed and lcd so comboers can win over and over again? i think this has already been discussed, but faster players arent always the winners. if you can downstack better, tspin better, time better, than speed shouldnt be a problem for you. even on nullpomino, constantly spamming tetris + tspins isnt going to help you win unless you really use skill and downstack as well. there should be faster soft drop speed to encourage t-spins , and no line clear delay to speed the game up.

[meow]

NO to sonic drop/zero line delay, it favours uber speed over skill.

Of course you can say that speed is based on skill, but there comes a point where you want to give us slower players a chance to beat speed daemons if we play well enough and line delay and slower soft drop allow for this. Removing them up punishes US a lot while only benefiting you a tiny bit.
Sure you could argue that the whole point of this is to have uber elite settings for HD only, but I see HD more as a tetris community rather than an elitist organisation. Leave zero line delay and sonic drop for nullpominio, which is always going to be less laggy and more for the elite than TF can ever be. We should be trying to make HD rules the most balanced possible, not simply as a means of faster players destroying everyone. That hardly seems balanced to me.

The sonic drop or super fast soft drop affects everyone. And I would say the line clear delay affects the slower player more than the faster player. Slower player receives more lines and thus has longer delays. Plus, the line delay is the one of the most annoying things about TF. This change should be included everywhere, not just in Expert HD... Sonic drop/fast soft drop is a must to allow skilled players to stand a chance with Tspins.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Instant death when you top out OR allow people to try and save by placing blocks as the screen rises
(Currently it allows you to place a block but in reality you are dead. Many people notice this when being killed while halfway through dropping an i stick into a hole)
[fumen]105@hcB3jbA3gbA3gbB3ibB3gbE3hbB3gbE3gbC3gbE3gb?C3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3g?bC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3gbC3gbE3qbA4GceQpobQpobQ?ppbAAA0dQpobQpobQpobQpHcAAACdQpobQpobQpobQpobQp?vcAAA7eAOoAXcB3hbJwA3gbA3lbYiibA3hbA3pbQpYiPdA3?hbAAhbQppbZsbNcB3hbJwA3gbA3lbYiibA3hbA3pbQpYiPd?A3hbAAhbQpzb5wb5bB3hbJwA3gbA3gbB3hbIwB3gbB3hbA3?hbYiibA3hbA3QpYinbQpYiFdA3hbAAhbQpibA3hbAAhbQp9?b5TcSpibB3hbQpIwA3RpgbB3hbQpB3gbQpA3hbA3gboUYiw?NQpgbA3hbA3QpoUxNlbQpYi0bwNQpwNkbxNhbwNkbxNgbQp?mbxNqbxNlbwNQpxNkbxNgbwNlbwNgbQpwNlbxNQphbAAhbQ?pibA3gbyNgbQpjbxNQpgbwNjbxNibwNgbAAhbwNhbA3gbwN?gbAAhbwNhbA3gbwNqbAQpLAmbAuC0brwCJnoBA[/fumen]
[/quote]
Is this the lag bug where you're clearing lines and then the game adds some garbage to you which was sent moments earlier, but due to lag or poor design, came later thus topping you out because you were supposed to be dead.

[Blink]

I prefer a faster soft drop instead of sonic drop.

reason:  a fast soft drop can still place the piece anywhere a sonic drop can do, but a sonic drop won't be able to do the same.  You'd have to wait for your piece to fall from the gravity instead.

[mippo]

i'd like to have piece preview just before the start of the match
like in TOJ... i think it encourages people using more interesting setups..

also i'd like to hear some opinions from tf combo players, like for example sonic

[Ravendarksky]

The sonic drop or super fast soft drop affects everyone. And I would say the line clear delay affects the slower player more than the faster player. Slower player receives more lines and thus has longer delays. Plus, the line delay is the one of the most annoying things about TF. This change should be included everywhere, not just in Expert HD... Sonic drop/fast soft drop is a must to allow skilled players to stand a chance with Tspins.


Is this the lag bug where you're clearing lines and then the game adds some garbage to you which was sent moments earlier, but due to lag or poor design, came later thus topping you out because you were supposed to be dead.

I guess you have a point there. I don't grudge the extra second it takes me to soft drop my tspins because at the level i'm playing at, I can get away with it. I'm not really playing with the TOP level players yet, so I don't really mind if they get to drop two or three pieces more than me while i place my Ts. I accept it as part of the tradeoff of Tspinning.

You have an interesting point with the line clear. Surely line clear delay then contributes somewhat to balancing out tetris vs tspins as tspins clear less lines and thus result in more line clear delays than a tetris. Similarly combos are balanced out slightly by having lots of line delays.

The Fumen diagram I added is a result of poor game design (I think). What happens (I think) is that the game animates your screen rising and then kills you once it goes off the top of the screen. Any lines you clear during this process or blocks you drop during this process are ignored until the animation is complete. Thus to the player it appears that you can rescue yourself by dropping the I stick, but in reality you are dead. (For clarification I am talking about clearing four lines so you don't top out, not clearing four lines and cancelling incoming garbage. This situation is where all incoming garbage is being added as you try and place.)

[EnFuego]

NO to sonic drop/zero line delay, it favours uber speed over skill.

Of course you can say that speed is based on skill, but there comes a point where you want to give us slower players a chance to beat speed daemons if we play well enough and line delay and slower soft drop allow for this. Removing them up punishes US a lot while only benefiting you a tiny bit.
Sure you could argue that the whole point of this is to have uber elite settings for HD only, but I see HD more as a tetris community rather than an elitist organisation. Leave zero line delay and sonic drop for nullpominio, which is always going to be less laggy and more for the elite than TF can ever be. We should be trying to make HD rules the most balanced possible, not simply as a means of faster players destroying everyone. That hardly seems balanced to me.

You have valid points but I think we can separate and expert plus mode and an expert HD mode. Expert HD mode shouldn't hold you back at how fast you can play. Stay at expert plus if you want to handicap faster players.

I prefer a faster soft drop instead of sonic drop.

reason:  a fast soft drop can still place the piece anywhere a sonic drop can do, but a sonic drop won't be able to do the same.  You'd have to wait for your piece to fall from the gravity instead.

How hard would it be to program both into the game? In multiplayer I would use sonic drop mostly but I wouldn't mind an extra key I could press to enable slow drop

[DAS44]

Oh and I think we should have the option of using "'no solid garbage"outside of private rooms.

Free up the das and arr for god's sake!