Countering combo's (without combos)

[Ravendarksky]

I think this is fail :/

Hey it's not the best thing to do but if they already have half a stack built and I've just failed a PC its something I personally can do really fast.

A tsd into a 2 wide 5-6 combo seems to save me fine.

Sure a three wide would be better or stacking for tetris or tspinning but that's not what I do... =P

Here's a pretty accurate example of how it goes on the PC failure (for me)

DISCLAIMER THIS IS JUST HOW I PLAY AND I'm RANK 16 AND TERRIBLE.

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And if that doesn't work I just do the old 5 wide:

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[Noogy]

5 wide into rocketship? that's blink's old opening

[crzy242]

LOLL 5 WIDE FTW

[KeroKai]

Nah. To be honest, I haven't really seen many players complaining about combos on the other game. It's only on Tetris Friends that combo's are a real serious problem because of the advantage it gives.

Combo 7 sends over 13 lines.
B2B and TSD sends over 14 lines if broken.

But the largest difference between the combo lines and the B2B and TSD is that the combo player will receive clean garbage and us receiving messy garbage. You'd need to break into a combo at some point to counter act any 7+ line combos.

[meow]

whats the point of b2b on TF when you can clear a combo1 to send 1 extra line ;D

[chopin]

I feel like T-spins are hard work and should deserve some messy/messier garbage. Also the B2B system is messed up if it's just going to add 1 extra line of clean garbage for your opponent to send right back at you. B2B/T-spins are supposed to be pro techniques to master, yet with the new system on TF they got a**-nerfed.

So it seems as if 4-wide/combo is getting stronger as the months go by. As I said before, we're going to get to a point where once the system recognizes that you're going for a 4-wide combo, you auto-win (: Maybe they'll throw you in a nice crown too.

[meow]

i have to disagree. tspins seem weak on tf not because they send straight garbage but because combos are too strong.

Code Select Expand

consec lines   TOJ     TF
2               0       1
3               1       2
4               2       4
5               4       6
6               6       9
7               9      12
8              12      16

combos used to send 0,0,1,1,2,2 etc. lines but then in one of the patches, they changed the table to 0,1,1,2,2 etc. and never gave it a second thought. did they even explain why they buffed it or did someone screw up and did not want to own up to it leaving it the way it is since?

and the soft drop speed still sucks

[larrytetris]

I wouldn't exactly say I'm a fast stacker (51.76 sprint?) but kdbar (sub40 sprint) dodges my 4-wide (consistently 12+) every time with b2b tetrises (assuming no misdrops for both of us). So many parenthetical statements.

But how I counter 4-wide is with STSD and then a 2 or 3 wide combo. The 2nd TSD in the STSD is the combo starter, and every piece after that is a combo. The first tspin is insurance against any "aborted" comboes, i.e. a misdrop or bad piece sequence forces them to stop comboing and start pulling TSDs or tetrises, so after trash cancelling with that I'm ready for the second TSD and my combo. Basically, the first TSD buys time for me to stack high enough.

I forgot to mention, Perfect Clears on Side comboers. If they mess up once, they're done. After the PC, I get tetrises or TSDs asap.

[KeroKai]

i have to disagree. tspins seem weak on tf not because they send straight garbage but because combos are too strong.

Code Select Expand

consec lines   TOJ     TF
2               0       1
3               1       2
4               2       4
5               4       6
6               6       9
7               9      12
8              12      16

combos used to send 0,0,1,1,2,2 etc. lines but then in one of the patches, they changed the table to 0,1,1,2,2 etc. and never gave it a second thought. did they even explain why they buffed it or did someone screw up and did not want to own up to it leaving it the way it is since?

and the soft drop speed still sucks

I've always wondered. Does changing it to the TOJ system really weaken combo's by that much? Obviously I haven't tried out TOJ so I don't know how the difference feels like but surely it'd only be a minor delay? Then again, it stops the combo 1 from sending over 1 line.  

I wouldn't exactly say I'm a fast stacker (51.76 sprint?) but kdbar (sub40 sprint) dodges my 4-wide (consistently 12+) every time with b2b tetrises (assuming no misdrops for both of us). So many parenthetical statements.

But how I counter 4-wide is with STSD and then a 2 or 3 wide combo. The 2nd TSD in the STSD is the combo starter, and every piece after that is a combo. The first tspin is insurance against any "aborted" comboes, i.e. a misdrop or bad piece sequence forces them to stop comboing and start pulling TSDs or tetrises, so after trash cancelling with that I'm ready for the second TSD and my combo. Basically, the first TSD buys time for me to stack high enough.

I forgot to mention, Perfect Clears on Side comboers. If they mess up once, they're done. After the PC, I get tetrises or TSDs asap.

That souunds pretty good plan on how to counter. Though, I'd imagine that your 4-wide stacks fairly well against other players similiar to your speed. That extra 12 seconds is quite a huge difference, really, at least from my point of view.

[meow]

I've always wondered. Does changing it to the TOJ system really weaken combo's by that much? Obviously I haven't tried out TOJ so I don't know how the difference feels like but surely it'd only be a minor delay? Then again, it stops the combo 1 from sending over 1 line.  

it wouldn't weaken 4wide openings much but it will definitely affect combos in the midgame.

combo 3 > tetris (same lines but messier garbage)
combo 2 > triple (ditto)
combo 1 > double (ditto)

it's absurd that low combos are rewarded like this. on TOJ, low combos send next to nothing, while high combos send a moderate amount, which is the way it should be imo.

clearing multiple lines was considered to be a skill in the old days of tetris

[mippo]

it wouldn't weaken 4wide openings much but it will definitely affect combos in the midgame.

combo 3 > tetris (same lines but messier garbage)
combo 2 > triple (ditto)
combo 1 > double (ditto)

it's absurd that low combos are rewarded like this. on TOJ, low combos send next to nothing, while high combos send a moderate amount, which is the way it should be imo.

clearing multiple lines was considered to be a skill in the old days of tetris

I thought the biggest problem with combos was with the opening?
But, yeah I agree they need to be weakened, I never realized how
overpowered small combos were especially with the new garbage system!

How does the list of lines sent continue after 8 combos for TOJ (or nullpo)?
I've done an 8 combo with singles on TF Arena and it sends 17 lines, not 16.
Like I posted elsewhere a 10 combo sends 25 (so i'm assuming a 9 sends 21)
11 = 30 and then 15 = 50
I'm curious how this compares with TOJ

[larrytetris]

That souunds pretty good plan on how to counter. Though, I'd imagine that your 4-wide stacks fairly well against other players similiar to your speed. That extra 12 seconds is quite a huge difference, really, at least from my point of view.

If you look at it based on %ages, it become more glaringly obvious. Kdbar plays at around 125% my speed, and that's assuming no line clear delay, no soft drops, no holds, etc. With stacking a 9-wide stack for tetrises versus two 3-wide stacks for 4-wide, I have to hold a lot more, and when I'm actually performing my combo the line clears and soft drops for twists take way longer. My Arena average TPM is far under by sprint TPM due to tspins and twists.

Basically, assuming 125% playing speed, the time it takes me to stack an 18-high stack for 4-wide (18*6/4=approx 27 pieces +1 for starter = 28), kdbar would have stacked 35 pieces. That's 140 blocks high under all of the assumptions stated above. If we grant a little leeway, aka one additional block, that gets us to 144, which is an integer multiple of 9. That's equal to a 16 row tall tetris trash column. With 4 tetrises, 3 of which are b2b, he gets 4+6+6+6 = 28 lines, 30 if he combos two sets of two.

In a nutshell, he potentially gets 30 lines before my 18 combo begins, almost completely disregarding hold and soft drop and whatnot. By the time I'm done with the combo (18 pieces = his 23 or so) he can get at least 2 more tetrises = 42 lines. If I need to soft drop anywhere in it, he'll get more.

[bach_of_tetris]

If you look at it based on %ages, it become more glaringly obvious. Kdbar plays at around 125% my speed, and that's assuming no line clear delay, no soft drops, no holds, etc. With stacking a 9-wide stack for tetrises versus two 3-wide stacks for 4-wide, I have to hold a lot more, and when I'm actually performing my combo the line clears and soft drops for twists take way longer. My Arena average TPM is far under by sprint TPM due to tspins and twists.

Basically, assuming 125% playing speed, the time it takes me to stack an 18-high stack for 4-wide (18*6/4=approx 27 pieces +1 for starter = 28), kdbar would have stacked 35 pieces. That's 140 blocks high under all of the assumptions stated above. If we grant a little leeway, aka one additional block, that gets us to 144, which is an integer multiple of 9. That's equal to a 16 row tall tetris trash column. With 4 tetrises, 3 of which are b2b, he gets 4+6+6+6 = 28 lines, 30 if he combos two sets of two.

In a nutshell, he potentially gets 30 lines before my 18 combo begins, almost completely disregarding hold and soft drop and whatnot. By the time I'm done with the combo (18 pieces = his 23 or so) he can get at least 2 more tetrises = 42 lines. If I need to soft drop anywhere in it, he'll get more.

As if anyone could get in 30 lines before an 18 combo :/

[sonic]

4+6+6+6= 22 O-o also, b2b bonus on tf is +1

[berry]

b2b tetris is 5 not 6, so 4+5+5+5 = 19 lines

edit: what s0nic said:P