Hi.

I'm making this post, hoping to spark a friendly debate on the best direction for competitive, multiplayer Tetris.

I don't participate much in the Tetris community, but I know from experience there's a lot of incredibly talented and insightful Tetris players here. Take the developers behind games such as Jstris, Misamino and Nullpomino. Authors behind mind-blowingly, comprehensive analyses, and the pros with thousands of hours experience on various Tetris platforms.

However, it has to be said that the Tetris community, although intelligent and capable, is fragile and divided.
Some people only play the good old NES Classic Tetris, others stick to the ARS games/TGM series. Many of us stick to Cultris, and I'm guessing the majority play SRS Guideline games like Tetris Friends, PPT and Nullpomino, be it single-player or multiplayer.

Although I no longer engage in Tetris community discussions, I've seen many attempts to unify the aforementioned Tetris niche communities throughout the almost 10 years I've been on Harddrop.
This is not meant to be one of those attempts. My introduction serves the purpose of pointing out the many different preferences that Tetris players have, as I believe pleasing as many of these as possible is one of the key factors in a "successful" game.

With the recent TTC releases: Tetris Blitz, Tetris Ultimate, Puyo Puyo Tetris, and the recently announced Tetris Effect, I have lost all faith in an official game that would be decent for competitive players.

So what makes competitive Tetris games good? Here's a few vital components:

- Speed of play
DAS/ARR, delays, soft drop speed, garbage values.

When I first started, there were regular tournaments on Nullpomino and Tetris Online Japan. Since then, the speed of players has been steadily increasing every year. When I first started out, Maserati held the world record with a time of 25.56, and very few players were sub 30. Nowadays there's lots and lots of sub 30's, and the top players are pushing 20 seconds. Fast games like Nullpomino and Jstris are no longer enjoyable to play or watch for me, because the lack of any kind of delay makes it exhausting to play, and difficult to keep up spectating/commentating.
My conclusion is that slower is better to a certain degree, and only if it's done right:
Limiting previews and straying away from 7 bag is in my opinion an example of an ineffective way to combat this issue. While it would succeed in slowing the game down, it would also add a relatively big luck factor, which in my opinion quickly becomes unhealthy for a competitive environment.
Line clear delays and a slow soft drop speed are great examples of small pauses that allow you to strategize your own play, and analyze your opponents play. The benefits of this also includes making the game more spectator/commentator friendly.

- Smoothness
Lag, intuitive user interface, satisfying graphics.

These are just general important things in all games and apps. There's a good balance between customizable and intuitive that's hard to find.
Lag seems to be the main TTC killer for competitive players where one single misdrop can completely sabotage an intense 2 minute round. I believe games like Tetris Friends and PPT would be decent games had it not been for the dropped frames and connection issues.

- Availability
Some games are found with a simple Google search, while others include painstakingly navigating a South Korean website, only to finally make your way to the registration form and finding out you need a South Korean resident registration number. Wtf Hangame?

This is really only a problem with very few games, like the dead ToJ, and Hangame.

- NERFING 4 WIDE Balance
Balanced combo tables, garbage structure, spins.

In my opinion, this is the biggest difference in fan made games.
Some people enjoy the Blockbox swiss cheese garbage, some people like the straight TF style garbage, and some like a good mix. Honestly, I don't know what the most healthy way to do sent garbage is, but I prefer the TF style with straight garbage lines, as it emphasizes timing, adding another layer to the game.
I'm also curious about the popularity of all-spins?

- Leaderboards/Rankings
There has been, and are so many different Tetris clients that highscores have become unreliable and superficial. There have been attempts to list players' records on forums and places such as http://harddrop.com/records, but the truth is that with so many players, and a ton of different game modes, no single highscore table will be reliable. Even so, I do think it's important that individual games have their own highscores, since it inspires competition.
Another valuable feature is a ranking system, such as Tetris Friends' Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum leagues, or an Elo based system like Nulllpomino netplay and ToJ/ToP. However, this is notoriously hard to pull off with a small community.

Whether you are an experienced veteran or a new player, please share what you prefer to play and/or spectate, and why.

Hi Swarley.

Quote from: SwarleyI've seen many attempts to unify the aforementioned Tetris niche communities throughout the almost 10 years I've been on Harddrop. This is not meant to be one of those attempts. My introduction serves the purpose of pointing out the many different preferences that Tetris players have, as I believe pleasing as many of these as possible is one of the key factors in a "successful" game.

I don't think the niche communities can be united. Some people like multiplayer, others like singleplayer. And there's this deep cut in the history of Tetris: the introduction of the Tetris guideline around 2002. Before that, the focus was usually on Marathon-like modes, where you battle against gravity, now the focus is more on (simulated) multiplayer, speed as well as making Tetris as easy as possible for inexperienced players. With Hold feature, bag randomizer, move reset and SRS, you can't have that survival experience as you had in classic games like Game Boy or NES Tetris as well as in the TGM series.

Quote from: SwarleyWith the recent TTC releases: Tetris Blitz, Tetris Ultimate, Puyo Puyo Tetris, and the recently announced Tetris Effect, I have lost all faith in an official game that would be decent for competitive players.

That's a hard statement. It's interesting that you lost the faith because of games that are considered rather well-made (except Tetris Ultimate) by the broader audience. But I tend to agree. All those games have some interesting aspects but in the end there are other aspects that totally ruin them for me. For example, I like the garbage system or ladder system in Puyo Puyo Tetris but I can just shake my head over the ranking system, netcode, lack of IHS & IRS, the Tetris bots, the previews in 3+ player rooms, incoming garbage causing no-input delays, forcing PvT crossplay and never balancing 4-wide. And that's what people here have to understand: official games will always have aspects (e.g. LAAAG) that are considered bad by hardcore players. Sadly, game developers just lack the understanding of high-level Tetris. They think, it's just fine following TTC's guideline documents and they have just their pitch in the mind. And most often, there isn't any experienced Tetris player involved in the development process.

Quote from: SwarleyFast games like Nullpomino and Jstris are no longer enjoyable to play or watch for me, because the lack of any kind of delay makes it exhausting to play, and difficult to keep up spectating/commentating.
My conclusion is that slower is better to a certain degree, and only if it's done right: Limiting previews and straying away from 7 bag is in my opinion an example of an ineffective way to combat this issue.

I totally agree with the first part but disagree with the last sentence. Anyway, I think Tetris Friends Expert+ mode found a good balance regarding speed. Softdrop speed is OK, and the line clear delay is neither too short nor not too long and your hold and rotation inputs aren't ignored during line clear delay (ok autoshift can't be charged during line clear delay but it doesn't matter that much to me in a client with fast enough DAS). I would say DelayedAutoShift = customizable between 7 and 12 frames, and AutoRepeatRate = 3 frames are good choices for an unlaggy client. Another important aspect for me is randomness. Randomness can help to reduce the skill gap. I think Puyo Puyo Tetris did this right from the guideline games. I know some people will disagree here but I like the fact that both players get different piece sequences (bag randomizer is so nonrandom, so this has no big influence) and that luck is involved in the consistency of garbage (if you send n lines with a line clear, then the garbage hole column can switch somewhere between 0 and (n-1) times). I also think that clients should try to make games a little shorter in average because the better player usually wins in longer games .

Quote from: Swarley- Smoothness
Lag, intuitive user interface, satisfying graphics.

User interface and satisfying graphics are aspects that are often neglected by hardcore players. I hear so often: fanmade client X is better than official client y because it has no lag. Nope, the overall package must be right. And in my opinion fan-made clients could learn certain things from official clients:

• graphics in Tetris Online Japan: OK, the graphics are a little too sparkly and flashy but you have a huge library of graphics and sound you could actually use in your games now that TOJ was abandoned.
• ranking system in Tetris Friends: Dividing players into Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum classes is a good way to prevent matches with too big skill gap. All players start in Bronze class, where the sum of ranking points increases a little (winner gets more points than the loser loses in a 1v1). So, most players will get to Silver and Gold class eventually, where the sum of ranking points stays the same. And the sum of ranking points is depleted a little in Platinum class (when a lvl20+999points player wins a match), so only the best players will reach Platinum. You may think TF ranking system is bad because too many players reach rank 20. Nope, this is only because of those Speed Up items people win in the daily lottery - a pay-to-win thingy ruining an otherwise great mechanic.
• asynchronous play in Tetris Battle (Facebook): The main modes even combine asynchronous play (fake multiplayer, play against a replay) with real multiplayer but this is not my point. In asynchronous play you can ensure that a player gets an opponent/replay on a similar skill level and that without any waiting time. This can be great for fanmade clients which usually have a small userbase. However, garbage lines can't have holes in asynchronous play. Tetris Battle introduced bombs instead which are much better than just solid garbage in my opinion.
• garbage system in Puyo Puyo Tetris: This garbage system is easy to implement but gives good results. If a player receives a chunk of garbage, the garbage hole in the top line of that chunk is in a random column (10 % chance to be in the same row as the already present garbage). There's a 70 % chance that every further line has its garbage hole in the same column as the row above. The resulting garbage is rich in variety and Tetrises / T-Spins don't send too clean garbage (in contrast to "change per attack" garbage)
• other widely spread mechanics like targeting, garbage delay: Official games usually use a 500 miliseconds delay between when garbage is sent and when garbage is inserted. If you see the opponent is sending garbage to you, you can quickly drop the current piece and the garbage isn't inserted until you place a further piece. Receiving garbage without a warning can be frustrating. Targeting means the ability to send garbage to a specific opponent. You may think it is a bad mechanic but sometimes it's the only defense worse players have, for example if a platinum ranked troll enters a gold room in Tetris Friends. Note that in Tetris Friends, the target automatically switches after a while (so you have to time your attack to target) and that your target's target is you once again (so you can defend easily, if just one player targets you).

One further aspect I want to mention regarding fan-made clients: Don't just copy games. Let diverse games influence you and try to imagine things from a different angle.

Most often, the authors of fan-made clients play another client excessively and they try to recreate that game with only very few aspects changed (in case of multiplayer games, the author's slogan is often less lag and faster equals better). Let's take TGM for example. There are lots of TGM clones out there and all of those clones use the same rotation system as TGM. None of those TGM fans had the idea to make the pieces spawn flatside down in which case you can still rotate the pieces after they hit the ground. Instead, all of them rely on TGM's prerotation system (you must rotate the pieces before they spawn, TGM1 has a ridiculously long spawn delay so that people can just do that). And in 90 % of the fan-made games you have to press 2 buttons to harddrop a piece (first Up then Down). From my angle, those 2 choices are just bad but TGM fans can't see them. So maybe there are also aspects in multiplayer clients we neglect to see?

An example regarding fan-made multiplayer games: SpeedBlocks. This is actually a clone of another fan-made game, namely Cultris II. IIRC SpeedBlocks' pitch was less resource-hungry graphics, a Challonge plugin(?) that makes creating tournaments easier. SpeedBlocks was intended to be like Cultris II in every other aspect. Did it work? Nope. The project seems to be dead after a year. Cultris II has better graphics and excellent netcode, so no way C2 players are switching over to SpeedBlocks. There are many things SpeedBlocks could have done differently than Cultris II. For example I don't like that Singles are the strongest line clears (with a few exceptions) and I don't like that speed is rewarded overproportionally (C2 uses a time-based combo system, the faster you play the higher combos you get, play 30 % faster -> send at least 50 % more lines). Those 2 flaws of Cultris II are so obvioius to me (as a rather slow player who originates from games like Multris and GB Tetris) but a C2 player can't see it. Personally, I am still waiting for a  not-too-fast, non-guideline (meaner randomizer, no hold) multiplayer client about multi-line-clears. Such a client has a higher potential to attract more people than any fan-made guideline clone because it would resemble classic Tetris and it wouldn't have to compete with any official game (the userbase would have different preferences).

Now about fan-made guideline games. One aspect this community tends to neglect is how problematic speed is. And honestly, the speed of Tetris is the main reason why I still play it: Choices in Tetris matter but you can make them so fast that you can get into a zone / encounter a flow (flow thanks to previews, around 20 spots where you could place a piece, the resulting playfields are easily imaginable thanks to cells only being filled or empty and the simple line clear mechanic, the surface of your stack matters the most). I assume the flow is the addicting reason why people here still play Tetris after 1000+ hours. However, for more casual players it's still the survival aspect. Anyway, I think the biggest reason why speed is problematic is not getting exhausted or too fast to commentate, it's the skill gap. Most people in this community are among the best or they have the aspiration to become one of the best. So, they look up playing against better players. However, imagine a casual player going into Jstris or Cultris II multiplayer. The only rooms with some action are usually the bot / free for all room and one really strong player is usually present. So the casual player gets destroyed within seconds and has to wait minutes to play the next match with the same result. Is this enjoyable? No. Even I as a top 100 Cultris II player often think to myself, why can't the top 10 player leave the room (90 % chance that there's at least a top 10 player in C2 FFA). Those games will never attract a wider audience as long as this doesn't change. Guideline games tend to even increase the skill gap because you have to think more ahead in multiplayer (many previews), you have more options to place pieces (hold feature, overhangs are not too bad) and there's always a way to get out of a difficult stack (missing randomness, use of twists).

One bad thing about the guideline is just the nature of Super Rotation System. It's there to make Tetris easy for inexperienced players, but at the same time it makes moves possible those players would never do. When I was introduced to T-Spins, I just thought why should you be rewarded to setup T-Spins on purpose. And those T-Spin Triples just looked so unnatural to me. Why should you be able to spin a piece into a position where the center of the piece is kicked down by 2 rows? Meanwhile, I understand why T-Spins are rewarded (because Tetrising is too easy with bag randomizer and hold) but just imagine an inexperienced player getting into multiplayer: That other player just won because of T-Spins (actually not) and how should I know that I can fix the misdrop with that spin? Most players don't want to learn, they just want to have fun. I play some guideline games since 3 years or so but using Hold still slows me down. And then there's just the problematic nature of multiplayer. I feel like it's easier to appreciate good players in singleplayer, because too good players can ruin the experience for worse players. What I tried to say: For casuals, it's hard to get into guideline multiplayer.

Now about guideline Tetris in general: Have you ever wondered why you are playing multiplayer. The major reason is that the guideline isn't suited for singleplayer. The most popular mode is Sprint, a mode where the goal is just to stack as fast as possible - this should say it all. Older versions of Tetris didn't have the flow/speed but they had that survival aspect. The guideline hurts Marathon in so many ways that it is simply not enjoyable for good players (I played Game Boy Tetris type A a lot but no way I will play endless Marathon). And in Ultra, you have the problem of looping techniques. So how come nobody is making games similar to guideline with better singleplayer? As above-mentioned, authors of fan-made games usually play another client excessively (in this case guideline multiplayer), and in the end they will just make a copy/clone of it.

Last thing: I still hope that there will be a community collaboration sometime in future. Sadly, I don't see having enough time for participating in it seriously though. And sadly, all those relatively good clients with small issues just lower the chance that such a thing will ever happen (Tetris Online Poland - can't be modded, Cultris II - abandoned, Jstris - simple graphics + little confusing user interface, NullpoMino - 90% compilation of clones + bad multiplayer + not playable in browser). This community should also try to make Awesome Games Done Quick happen sometime - One could modify NullpoMino to have more speedrun-friendly modes + make it look better and then let Blink + MicroBlizz (or Wumbo/Squirtle) make a submission. It just saddens me to see Tetris prosper (TGM AGDQ, Classic World Championship videos with 1 million views, Japanese guideline videos with 100,000 views) but people from this community don't get any attention at all (it's 2018 but still no major offline TvT Puyo Puyo Tetris event; no interest in TTO outside of this community).

Thanks for taking the time to write a great response like always, Okey_Dokey.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I don't think the niche communities can be united. Some people like multiplayer, others like singleplayer. And there's this deep cut in the history of Tetris: the introduction of the Tetris guideline around 2002. Before that, the focus was usually on Marathon-like modes, where you battle against gravity, now the focus is more on (simulated) multiplayer, speed as well as making Tetris as easy as possible for inexperienced players. With Hold feature, bag randomizer, move reset and SRS, you can't have that survival experience as you had in classic games like Game Boy or NES Tetris as well as in the TGM series.[/quote]
I agree on all points. Yeah I don't think all Tetris players will ever be united under one community, but I do think it would be possible to unite a lot of us under one game that would cater to many preferences. I know many, if not most players here, are very particular about playing what they're used to. I used to be very stubborn and closed-minded, but I have since become open to all kinds of Tetris, perhaps out of necessity. I urge everyone to be open to new ideas.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]That's a hard statement. It's interesting that you lost the faith because of games that are considered rather well-made (except Tetris Ultimate) by the broader audience. But I tend to agree. All those games have some interesting aspects but in the end there are other aspects that totally ruin them for me. For example, I like the garbage system or ladder system in Puyo Puyo Tetris but I can just shake my head over the ranking system, netcode, lack of IHS & IRS, the Tetris bots, the previews in 3+ player rooms, incoming garbage causing no-input delays, forcing PvT crossplay and never balancing 4-wide.[/quote]
I would just like to point out that I'm not hating on the recent official games, but I do believe they're not well suited for competitive multiplayer.
It seems like TTC are trying very hard to move away from the traditional Tetris, and evolve it into something that I personally am not a fan of, but I can definitely appreciate it.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]And that's what people here have to understand: official games will always have aspects (e.g. LAAAG) that are considered bad by hardcore players. Sadly, game developers just lack the understanding of high-level Tetris. They think, it's just fine following TTC's guideline documents and they have just their pitch in the mind. And most often, there isn't any experienced Tetris player involved in the development process. [/quote]
Whether it is because they lack the understanding, or because it's simply bad business to cater to such a small audience, the end result is the same. The relatively tiny competitive scene does not benefit.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I totally agree with the first part but disagree with the last sentence. Anyway, I think Tetris Friends Expert+ mode found a good balance regarding speed. Softdrop speed is OK, and the line clear delay is neither too short nor not too long and your hold and rotation inputs aren't ignored during line clear delay (ok autoshift can't be charged during line clear delay but it doesn't matter that much to me in a client with fast enough DAS). I would say DelayedAutoShift = customizable between 7 and 12 frames, and AutoRepeatRate = 3 frames are good choices for an unlaggy client. Another important aspect for me is randomness. Randomness can help to reduce the skill gap. I think Puyo Puyo Tetris did this right from the guideline games. I know some people will disagree here but I like the fact that both players get different piece sequences (bag randomizer is so nonrandom, so this has no big influence) and that luck is involved in the consistency of garbage (if you send n lines with a line clear, then the garbage hole column can switch somewhere between 0 and (n-1) times). I also think that clients should try to make games a little shorter in average because the better player usually wins in longer games .[/quote]
I am embarrassed to admit that I don't know enough about the technicalities of DAS and ARR to comment on your first point.
As for the randomness, I already stated that I'm very skeptical of adding a randomness factor, because in my experience, a competitive scene simply does not benefit from it. However, I see nothing wrong with giving the players different pieces, because like you said, it's pretty much irrelevant given how much freedom you have with hold and 7 bag.
What I do disagree with here is that, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to believe that handicapping the most skilled player is good because it evens the playing field. This thought scares me a little. To me, there's few things more frustrating in a game than to lose because you got unlucky, as it disincentivize players to improve their play, and it's just not very satisfying to lose or win in such a scenario. If you lose without being able to think to yourself "Hmm, what could I have done differently?", I believe it inspires an hopeless and demoralized attitude. Furthermore, I can't think of any successful sport or game where this is the case. I can understand how multiplayer in the modern Tetris is unfair because many players simply can not reach the speed required to compete in a top level, be it because of a busy schedule, physical disabilities, or simply genetics(?). That being said, I strongly believe that the player who is most talented and has practiced the most should at the end of the day be rewarded for it.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Now about fan-made guideline games. One aspect this community tends to neglect is how problematic speed is. And honestly, the speed of Tetris is the main reason why I still play it: Choices in Tetris matter but you can make them so fast that you can get into a zone / encounter a flow (flow thanks to previews, around 20 spots where you could place a piece, the resulting playfields are easily imaginable thanks to cells only being filled or empty and the simple line clear mechanic, the surface of your stack matters the most). I assume the flow is the addicting reason why people here still play Tetris after 1000+ hours. However, for more casual players it's still the survival aspect. Anyway, I think the biggest reason why speed is problematic is not getting exhausted or too fast to commentate, it's the skill gap. Most people in this community are among the best or they have the aspiration to become one of the best. So, they look up playing against better players. However, imagine a casual player going into Jstris or Cultris II multiplayer. The only rooms with some action are usually the bot / free for all room and one really strong player is usually present. So the casual player gets destroyed within seconds and has to wait minutes to play the next match with the same result. Is this enjoyable? No. Even I as a top 100 Cultris II player often think to myself, why can't the top 10 player leave the room (90 % chance that there's at least a top 10 player in C2 FFA). Those games will never attract a wider audience as long as this doesn't change. Guideline games tend to even increase the skill gap because you have to think more ahead in multiplayer (many previews), you have more options to place pieces (hold feature, overhangs are not too bad) and there's always a way to get out of a difficult stack (missing randomness, use of twists).[/quote]
You raise a great point here that I only briefly visited. I also think speed is problematic not because of its nature, but because of the small communities resulting in impossible matchups. This is demotivating for the less skilled player, and ultimately hinders the growth of our community. Furthermore, I think the way to solve this is with a system that would make these matchups impossible unless intentionally sought out. The best example I can come with is Tetris Friends, however this is obviously not perfect given the insurmountable skill gap between a recently advanced rank 16, and an incredible skilled rank 20 like OnePunMan.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]One bad thing about the guideline is just the nature of Super Rotation System. It's there to make Tetris easy for inexperienced players, but at the same time it makes moves possible those players would never do. When I was introduced to T-Spins, I just thought why should you be rewarded to setup T-Spins on purpose. And those T-Spin Triples just looked so unnatural to me. Why should you be able to spin a piece into a position where the center of the piece is kicked down by 2 rows? Meanwhile, I understand why T-Spins are rewarded (because Tetrising is too easy with bag randomizer and hold) but just imagine an inexperienced player getting into multiplayer: That other player just won because of T-Spins (actually not) and how should I know that I can fix the misdrop with that spin? Most players don't want to learn, they just want to have fun. I play some guideline games since 3 years or so but using Hold still slows me down. And then there's just the problematic nature of multiplayer. I feel like it's easier to appreciate good players in singleplayer, because too good players can ruin the experience for worse players. What I tried to say: For casuals, it's hard to get into guideline multiplayer.  Now about guideline Tetris in general: Have you ever wondered why you are playing multiplayer. The major reason is that the guideline isn't suited for singleplayer. The most popular mode is Sprint, a mode where the goal is just to stack as fast as possible - this should say it all. Older versions of Tetris didn't have the flow/speed but they had that survival aspect. The guideline hurts Marathon in so many ways that it is simply not enjoyable for good players (I played Game Boy Tetris type A a lot but no way I will play endless Marathon). And in Ultra, you have the problem of looping techniques. So how come nobody is making games similar to guideline with better singleplayer? As above-mentioned, authors of fan-made games usually play another client excessively (in this case guideline multiplayer), and in the end they will just make a copy/clone of it. [/quote]
Regarding the comments made about single player modes, I agree. Most Marathon modes are just stupid, take a look at the top Marathon replays on Tetris Friends and tell me it's not the worst scoring system ever invented. Ultra is indeed problematic thanks to looping mechanics, watching someone S/T stack is just boring and unimpressive, and while infinite TST methods are certainly more difficult, it also boils down to practicing a pattern and performing it over and over. The "Sprint" mode, or 40 line mode as it is also known, is something I've always been very passionate about, and has been the main focus of my 10 years playing Tetris. However, I think it's short-sighted to use a 40 line mode as a the sole measure of speed in games that intentionally slow you down immensely.

Tetris in its original beauty was a battle against yourself, pushing you to reach higher scores and perform better and better.
I understand where you're coming from when you say Guideline is a bad influence. However, after watching some Classic World Tetris Championships, and Cultris II competitive matches, I personally believe that in a 1v1 setting, SRS is better than both of these, and here's why:
With the SRS, there are a several wacky spins that some would argue should not be possible. S/Z spins and so called "elevators" come to mind, but the biggest offenders are S/Z double spins, T-spin triples, and L/J spin triples. With the exception of T-spins, these are not really used in top level play, because since they are not rewarded like T-spins, they are practically useless. The only time you will actually see these is when fixing misdrops, and even then I believe they are rare.
Now obviously I'm biased, because I started out on Tetris Friends where T-spins are rewarded, so this became the norm for me. But I will go out on a limb and say that I would not enjoy a competitive scene that does not involve the extra layer that T-spins give you. Being the nerd that I am, watching a skilled played set up an emergency T-spin on row 18 to counter incoming lines can be jaw dropping.

The reason I don't think Classic Tetris is suitable for multiplayer is that it's just kind of boring to me. It might be because i'm accustomed to a faster pace, or it might be because there's no timing, t-spins or garbage lines involved. Whatever it is, I don't enjoy it as much.

As for Cultris II, I think it has a lot of depth, and a much higher skill gap than Guideline games. However, the games are so short, and it seems that luck plays a substantial part, also it appears that most of the time, the person who does the best in the opening usually emerges victorious.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Last thing: I still hope that there will be a community collaboration sometime in future. Sadly, I don't see having enough time for participating in it seriously though. And sadly, all those relatively good clients with small issues just lower the chance that such a thing will ever happen (Tetris Online Poland - can't be modded, Cultris II - abandoned, Jstris - simple graphics + little confusing user interface, NullpoMino - 90% compilation of clones + bad multiplayer + not playable in browser). This community should also try to make Awesome Games Done Quick happen sometime - One could modify NullpoMino to have more speedrun-friendly modes + make it look better and then let Blink + MicroBlizz (or Wumbo/Squirtle) make a submission. It just saddens me to see Tetris prosper (TGM AGDQ, Classic World Championship videos with 1 million views, Japanese guideline videos with 100,000 views) but people from this community don't get any attention at all (it's 2018 but still no major offline TvT Puyo Puyo Tetris event; no interest in TTO outside of this community).[/quote]
AGDQ could potentially be a huge boost for the Tetris scene, so I'm also rooting for this, however I believe MicroBlizz already submitted a 100 lines or 1000 lines race to AGDQ, and if he can't convince them, we'll need some TGM players like KevinDDR or Kitaru. I don't know if they have submitted anything.

Quote from: SwarleyWhether it is because they lack the understanding, or because it's simply bad business to cater to such a small audience, the end result is the same. The relatively tiny competitive scene does not benefit.

I couldn't have said that better.

Quote from: SwarleyWhat I do disagree with here is that, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to believe that handicapping the most skilled player is good because it evens the playing field. This thought scares me a little. To me, there's few things more frustrating in a game than to lose because you got unlucky, as it disincentivize players to improve their play, and it's just not very satisfying to lose or win in such a scenario. If you lose without being able to think to yourself "Hmm, what could I have done differently?", I believe it inspires an hopeless and demoralized attitude.

Strangely, that point (luck involved in consistency of garbage) was made by a Puyo player, although luck is also a big factor in Puyo Puyo where games often end after the first chain (even 2 chains). I would say you need that mechanic so that a tier B Tetris player has the same chance to win against a tier A Tetris player as a tier B Puyo player has against a tier A Puyo player. I wouldn't call it a handicap because the better player can also profit from it. It's just that the worse player's winning chances are increased because the better play can get unlucky garbage. The better player can still try to make the games long (more canceling, less T-Spins) to increase the chances of winning (using this strategy I win my matches against slower players unless they 4 wide). This aspect of luck can influence competitive play though. Let's say you had a slow start but then even out the score to 7-7 (that means you've a run). Then it's still not guaranteed to win a match which is first to 10. ... Unless you're much better than your opponent. For example, I once watched ajanba playing a first to 30 against Blink. ajanba was so sure of his ability to turn the match around that he lost a lot of rounds on purpose. He even let Blink reach 28 points before he got 25 points, just to crush Blink's hopes in the end.

Quote from: SwarleyThe reason I don't think Classic Tetris is suitable for multiplayer is that it's just kind of boring to me. It might be because i'm accustomed to a faster pace, or it might be because there's no timing, t-spins or garbage lines involved. Whatever it is, I don't enjoy it as much.
As for Cultris II, I think it has a lot of depth, and a much higher skill gap than Guideline games. However, the games are so short, and it seems that luck plays a substantial part, also it appears that most of the time, the person who does the best in the opening usually emerges victorious.

Even I (as a more classic player) think that guideline multiplayer is more interesting to watch (than Cultris II or SNES versus). After the first combo in Cultris II, you just see the players stacking flat, doing Singles while trying to downstack (clearing garbage is much harder than in guideline so it can look like the players are making bad placement decisions) and then further garbage lines mystically appear on one players' side. Watching and playing are different things though. Anyway, I tried to make the point that the majority of people out there could have trouble appreciating T-Spins. First, there are people who come from classic games. And then there are people who play guideline Tetris, but singleplayer only and in a casual way. For those people, it could look like players are messing up when they just setup T-Spins (T-Spinning slows down the downstack speed). A little related example: I watched Classic Tetris World Championship last year and they showed a Puyo Puyo Tetris trailer (Sega was a sponsor and still no PPT competition sigh). The majority of the viewership made fun of it. It wasn't because of T-Spins (there shouldn't be any in the trailer) but it was because of the multiplayer aspect and the weeb nature (use of Anime characters). Or whenever someone posts a guideline multiplayer game in the Tetris Reddit, it barely gets any upvotes but people just have to mention CTWC or TGM to get lots of them. Guideline Tetris multiplayer still hasn't reached the average Joe out there.

Quote from: SwarleyAGDQ could potentially be a huge boost for the Tetris scene, so I'm also rooting for this, however I believe MicroBlizz already submitted a 100 lines or 1000 lines race to AGDQ, and if he can't convince them, we'll need some TGM players like KevinDDR or Kitaru. I don't know if they have submitted anything.

Yes, MicroBlizz made a submission but it was halfhearted; it was only a 1000 line race in Jstris. NullpoMino as a more popular downloadable client has a higher chance than Jstris in my opinion. NullpoMino can be modded rather easily to include more modes, so you could show a larger variety of guideline Tetris. For example have a downstack run, a run for score (T-Spins) or have a run on a high gravity mode where weird/funny things happen all the time (similar to Shirase or that TGM item code, e.g. use Pentominoes, mess with colors, add garbage lines with holes in the shape of the pieces, use bombs). Actually, the TGM crew also made submissions in the last year which got declined (I think one time Magical Tetris Challenge and the other time TGM once again). I assume the chances to get Tetris to AGDQ have grown after that 1 year break, and that the TGM crew isn't that highly regarded by AGDQ staff anymore. And I think Tetris Sprint is what AGDQ is about in its core: minimize finish time in a skill-based, fast-paced game. I think, the problem is just to make outsiders understand how many people play Sprint. Why should we submit to speedrun.com or whatever, when there are just sides related to Tetris or when the clients we play have a built-in leaderboard.

--------

I noticed I let the discussion go offtopic. To answer a part of the original question: I think good rules for guideline Tetris multiplayer have been already established: Take Puyo Puyo Tetris, make line clears a little shorter, nerf combo tables (to nerf center 4-wide you can also lower the invisible buffer zone to 5 lines above the playfield; players are topped out if a filled cell is pushed above that), add DAS tuning (about 7 frames of DAS at minimum so that it doesn't become too fast), add IHS + IRS (and remove the input-ignoring delay when garbage is sent) and I would be pleased. For a well made Tetris client, I would have those further demands: no lags, well made spectator mode (where you can see the hold and next piece queue and where the playfields are updated at least 10 times a second), an Elo-based ranking system with multiple classes/leagues (like in Tetris Friends), ability to chat (maybe even voice chat), free for all rooms (maybe even more than 6 players), having some room creator options (e.g. item mode, team mode, number of previews, different randomizer, disable hold and T-Spins); and automated tournaments would be a nice optional feature. In case of singleplayer, I would have many demands that are unsatisfied by current guideline games. I think singleplayer plays a bigger role than multiplayer and I think singleplayer is where the guideline can improve the most (more or better implemented modes, visible leaderboards, ranking system instead of just highscore, ability to play a 1vs1 in e.g. Sprint or Ultra, allow more variance e.g. make changes possible to randomizer, rotation system and lock delay reset system). I've posted some of those demands in the Tetris Effect thread.

The best multiplayer Tetris experience I have had was Spaera beta 1.
Beta 1 refers to this version of Spaera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dnTOAZE_kM
Spaera still exists, however it is not the same game anymore because the original puzzle mechanics was replaced by different puzzle mechanics due to the developers not wanting to risk a legal battle with The Tetris Company.

In the past I was considering writing a post about why I thought Spaera was such a great game but I lacked the motivation to do it and with the Tetris community being split between so many different games and everyone having different opinions I wasn't even sure if anyone would be interested in hearing what I had to say. This does seem like a good opportunity to share my thoughts on Spaera so I'm going to take it.

Spaera combines elements from puzzle games with elements from fighting games. Because of my experience with Tetris, I was quickly able to figure out the puzzle game part of Speara. A single line clear sends one garbage line, and if you do the math it turns out downstacking is how you maximize your attack per piece and it also helps your survival, therefore you should never upstack, you should just downstack, all the time. Knowing that I could simply treat the puzzle part of the game as a singleplayer downstacking challenge and never have to worry about switching stacking styles or trying to build some sort of attack or anything like that, I was able to play the downstacking game on "autopilot" and focus 100% of my attention on the fighting game aspect of Spaera and that is where all the fun and all the depth is.

The fighting game part of Spaera consists of 8 different characters, each with 4 unique spells. Some have positive effects for yourself and some have negative effects for your opponent. The spells are balanced in a manner that makes different characters able to counter each other in interesting ways. The next queue shows 4 previews and is shared between both players meaning the next player to place their piece gets the piece at the top of the queue. Generally, the best players play at the same speed and fall into a rhythm where each player takes every other piece so it's almost like playing with two previews. Occasionally players opt out of that rhythm in attempt to get a different piece than they otherwise would have gotten or to try and prevent the opponent from getting a certain piece.
Some pieces have orbs in them. You accumulate orbs by clearing lines with orbs in them and the amount of orbs you have accumulated when you use a spell determines which spell you will use.
As a side effect when you use a spell, your current piece and your opponents current piece vanishes and you are guaranteed to get the top piece from the queue and your opponent will get the second piece. Advanced players make use this mechanic to manipulate the next queue and gain some control of who is getting or not getting certain pieces.

The shared next queue and all the different spells and the way the different game mechanics work together allow for quite a lot of strategy and depth to exist. When you're an experienced Tetris player who can play the downstacking game on autopilot and focus all of your attention on the fighting game, your thoughts during a game can go something like: "What spell is my opponent likely to use next? How can I best counter that? That J piece that's coming up looks really good for my downstacking but there is an orb piece coming after that so if I take the J piece I'm giving my opponent a free orb. How much better would my downstacking be if I take that J piece? Is it worth it? How much would my opponent benefit from that orb? Maybe it's better for me if he takes that orb because if he clears it, that would put him on his level 3 spell which means he can't use his level 2 spell as a counter to the thing I am going to do. Is my opponent smart enough to realize that and try to not take the orb, or take it but not clear it?"

What I experienced when I was in the zone downstacking and I had all these deep strategic thoughts flowing through my head is difficult to explain and it's something I have not experienced in any other Tetris game. I have experienced flow in many other Tetris games but this is different, it's like experiencing flow and something else, something profound, at the same time. That is why Spaera beta 1 is the best multiplayer Tetris game I have played.
There are many things I consider good about Spaera, things that have to do with various game mechanics, the pace of the game, the various delays that exists, how the pieces move and rotate and I could write a thousand words about that but ultimately what makes the game good is that experience that I haven't had in any other Tetris game. I wonder if other good Spaera players experienced something similar.

Opinons differ. I litterally hated the shared next queue mechanic in Tetris Battle Gaiden / Spaera. The shared next queue also made both players stall for several seconds to avoid certain pieces. I also would have liked being able to choose what spell I was using (with 2 orbs you could only cast the level 2 spell).

I agree that most Tetris games aren't very stategic. Screenwatching your opponent is only required when you want to compete with the very best. Things like spells or items can help to increase the strategic level, especially when you can select the moment in which you use the spell / item, and if you have a choice which item / spell to select (who says you can only have one item at once).

And I have to mention Multris here: In this game you could select when to attack the opponent (you had a time window of ~5 seconds after a multi-line clear) However, if you waited too long, you attacked yourself instead. The game didn't end after a topout (the end time was fixed like in Tetris Battle), you just lost a part of your score and the playfield was emptied. So, timing was important. In my opinion, Multris had the best 1vs1 mechanic of all Tetris games. However, Multris didn't work well in free for all rooms - I suppose the same can be said about games with items / spells.