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> how do i counter combos?, i need some halp
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mrapplybottom
post Jan 24 2010, 08:32 AM
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im currently playing on tetris friends live and was wondering if anyone knows of a good way to counter combo players without having to do combos as well? these are players who manage to get 9+ combos consistently. my problem is when they start it, i pretty much lose since i cant counter it all the trash that just keeps coming. when i see these players i set up back to back tspin triples then just wait and try bump them off before they start. but this works like only one time because after you do this they just start the combo lower the next game, but it still ends up filling my field. is there a solution to this? is there a pattern to use other than hoping for a perfect clear that is viable? or is counter comboing the only thing i can do?

also does combo garbage work the same way as normal garbage? i think ive seen a few times my screen rise with garbage even though i didnt drop my block yet. was i just imaging this?
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meow
post Jan 24 2010, 10:20 AM
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don't forget when you send your tspin triples, your opponent's field will rise or the amount of lines sent will be decreased due to garbage cancelling. unless the other player is significantly faster than you, there's no reason to fear any strategy coming from him/her. this is because you can use your opponent's strategy as well.

i think the reason you're losing is because the person performing combos is playing faster than you or combos are more powerful than tspins on TF (see this thread - http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1743)

how are you performing your back to back triples? if you're building up 7-8 lines, then you're only endangering yourself. i recommend trying a safer build that doesn't require you to stack high if you choose to use tspins.

a perfect clear is rare in a multiplayer match because of the garbage factor, especially on TF with no garbage blocking. it's great if you can perform a perfect clear, but you shouldn't rely on it.

if i'm not mistaken, all garbage works the same way on TF. there's a small chance (around 30%) that each new row of garbage will appear in a different column.

i don't think you're imagining your screen rising. it's just how combo adds work on TF.

there is something you can do about this though.... play TOJ, it's much better smile.gif
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Blink
post Jan 24 2010, 11:19 AM
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Usually what I do against a combo starter is set up for a quick back to back tspin double or tetris to tspin double and try to follow it up with a 3rd TSD or Tetris afterwards. In TF which has no garbage blocking, if the initial back to back is done before the other player gets deep into their combo they won't be able to counter much of the incoming garbage and will usually be spiked to death if their stack is a little over halfway high. The problem with this is that if a person is comboing with their gap in the middle, they will not top out as pieces will still be able to spawn. Then you'll be in trouble cause they'll usually spike a long combo your way as well as send back your usually clean garbage from the back to backs right back to you.

I haven't really tested out good strategies for players who start combos with middle gap, does anybody have ideas on what would work?
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Hsanrb
post Jan 24 2010, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE(Blink @ Jan 24 2010, 11:19 AM) *

I haven't really tested out good strategies for players who start combos with middle gap, does anybody have ideas on what would work?


Have you tried comboing into a TSD (like 3 or 4 combo finishing with TSD) to maximize the damage?


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mrapplybottom
post Jan 24 2010, 11:59 AM
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problem solved
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XaeL
post Jan 24 2010, 12:29 PM
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I don't think that there is a viable counter to a middle 4-combo that is performed correctly.

for combos done on the side of the well, these are easily counterd by tsd setups at the beginning. send about 8 trash, then their combo is crap.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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Blink
post Jan 24 2010, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE(mrapplybottom @ Jan 24 2010, 03:59 AM) *

see thats my main problem. maybe i am too slow but the thing is, i do decent against t-spinners and pure tetris players. but against chainers, i just set 2 t-spin triples up and wait for them to build high enough, then i attack. if i do 2 t-spin triples back to back, thats 7 lines. against their high chains, that means nothing, especially since their chain clears more than 7 lines. the way i perform the t-spin triples changes, but the set up is fairly common. it is the 8 line method, 6 for the actual lines cleared and 2 for the overlay to spin them in. i don't normally use setups like that other than when the other guy has a clear/low screen, but if i see a serial chain player, i use it. but like i said before, it really only works the one time.


A back to back tspin triple should send 13 lines total actually: 6 + 7. If you're going to be using it to attack rather than counter incoming garbage, it's best to time it to around the same time or a little bit before the opponent begins clearing their combo. As they are still in their early combos, they won't be able to counter much of the 13 lines. If your opponent is able to pull off combos quickly however, you'll want to go for a less risky strategy or use your TST's to counter garbage rather than send. In the case of countering you should wait a little bit so that all of your TST garbage is used for countering rather than countering only a portion and sending out 2 lines that could potentially save your life. Wait until you have atleast 6 lines of garbage incoming from their combo chain before you perform the first TST, then counter another 7 when you can. If done correctly this should negate a little bit more than combo 7 (or combo 6 in test room), which sends 12 lines total. After this clear garbage as it's coming in, and in order to top you out they would need to reach combo 12 (or 11 in test room) in order to top you out, even more than that depending on how much you are clearing/sending back after your first 2 TSTs.

QUOTE(mrapplybottom @ Jan 24 2010, 03:59 AM) *

i have tried toj and like it very much but just preferred TF because there are more english speakers, and also i don't quite get what all those f1-f8 emotes really mean, i just use them based on how they look and i think i'm using them wrong sad.gif maybe i'll give that another shot. i know toj has garbage blocking but does garbage from chains come all at once when they finish their chain or do they come as soon as they clear the lines? because if its the latter, then i don't think there will be much of a difference for me.


Yeah I think most of the players here prefer TOJ's garbage blocking over TF. Some members are working on an English patch for TOJ so this might encourage more English speakers, you can stay updated on that project or volunteer to help here: http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showt...iew=getlastpost

As for the emotes, they're pretty much like how they look.

F1 - Hi
F2 - Cry
F3 - Scared? Not sure
F4 - Confused
F5 - Good Job (or "I'm Ready")
F6 - Celebrate
F7 - Cheer
F8 - Goodbye


The garbage system difference is this:

In TF, incoming garbage is added to your field once you drop a piece.
In TOJ, incoming garbage is added to your field once you drop a piece that doesn't clear a line.

QUOTE(mrapplybottom @ Jan 24 2010, 03:59 AM) *

blink, i have tried using tki's set up for t-spin doubles with a slight twist of my own. i can get 4 back to back t-spin doubles fairly quickly but it only works if the initial pieces come out the right way. that is one thing that i have found that works well but the problem is the correct pieces don't come frequently enough to use. i will try different back to back t-spin doubles though next time and see how that works. but ive seen your gameplay videos. you are insanely fast, it might not work as well for me sad.gif

i have a video of a player named sonic (i think he comes on this forum) doing a middle gap combo. its in a reallllllllly long video i took but ill see if i can edit and post just that game because that was something that i could not find a counter to.

i have tried combos into tetrises, but not t-spins doubles/triples yet. other than after a tetris, i can't really think of a good set up that allows for that, but i'll definitely try and find a set up and give that a go.


This might be just me, but I'd say to avoid memorized setups altogether and play with improvised starts. I've noticed that the very top players rarely start with memorized setups and just go with the flow. This is better practice and allows you to learn dealing with any type of initial piece sequences that come your way without having to worry about correct pieces. It's pretty easy for an improvised player to counter someone doing a memorized setup because we already know what's coming as you're starting to build it and have more flexibility to change what we're going to do in response.

Yes, player sonic is from this forum, http://www.harddrop.com/sonic . I'm also having trouble finding a counter for the middle gap combo, but if nothing ever comes up we always have the option of doing the same thing as they are. As of right now it seems like the best counter for a 4 middle gap combo start is to do your own 4 middle gap combo start. Let's keep experimenting things and hopefully find other methods that are successful against it.
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mrapplybottom
post Jan 24 2010, 01:40 PM
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problem solved
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meow
post Jan 24 2010, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(mrapplybottom @ Jan 24 2010, 09:59 PM) *

the problem is it really only sets them up for a free tetris after their combo, and thats assuming im still alive after the combo. when they do chains, they are constantly clearing lines/lowering their screen, so 7 lines really doesn't do much. i cant tell if canceling garbage works the same for chains so i'm just trying to find something that can combat it. i hate the fact that any chain past 9 is pretty much game over for me.


You have just as much chance to receive a free tetris from the combo adds. I think the problem is the weakness of tspin triples, you're left with an overhang which might block you from downstacking.

QUOTE
i have a video of a player named sonic (i think he comes on this forum) doing a middle gap combo. its in a reallllllllly long video i took but ill see if i can edit and post just that game because that was something that i could not find a counter to.

i have tried combos into tetrises, but not t-spins doubles/triples yet. other than after a tetris, i can't really think of a good set up that allows for that, but i'll definitely try and find a set up and give that a go.


I agree with Blink that you should improvise more. The current guideline standards reward efficient play so you should try to play efficiently depending on your field instead of sticking with a specific strategy. If your field allows for a long combo, go for that; if it allows for T-spins, then go for T-spins.

Personally, I disagree about waiting for a specific time to counter the garbage. I believe if you play efficiently and continuously add/downstack, you'll be better off than waiting for the correct moment to counter the garbage (ranked rooms anyway).

You should concentrate on keeping your field flat, so that you're able to clear the garbage that you receive. There's no reason the combo should kill you if you do that. Your earlier sends will have weakened your opponent (increased field height or lessened combo damage). In the end, it's only a matter of who sends more lines if both players know how to survive (downstack!!).
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m__
post Jan 24 2010, 01:52 PM
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i'm not the fastest player and there aren't to many comboers that really get me. once in a while they do, but I can usually cause enough damage by tetrising fast that they loose their combo start.

i actually have never faced to much damage from comboers. the biggest threat to me is getting opening garbage by two people at the same time.

i only start with a TSD if I see the setup in my opening bag, if not I simply tetris and start going for TSDs once i have some garbage to start clearing down.
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XaeL
post Jan 24 2010, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE(meow @ Jan 24 2010, 01:48 PM) *

Personally, I disagree about waiting for a specific time to counter the garbage. I believe if you play efficiently and continuously add/downstack, you'll be better off than waiting for the correct moment to counter the garbage (ranked rooms anyway).

theres ranked rooms?!


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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meow
post Jan 25 2010, 12:46 AM
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nope i meant the debug rooms
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jujube
post Jan 25 2010, 10:15 PM
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suuuuurrre that's what you meant meow.

i agree with everything you said, especially the part about not waiting to counter garbage. if you don't put a little pressure on then you're leaving the other players free to stack as high as they want and to get a big attack. even if you're able to survive the initial hit, they'll be in much better shape than you afterwards.
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Paul676
post Jan 25 2010, 11:02 PM
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yeah against comboers I stack and then do a tetris/b2b combo when I see their screen getting highish. This sends around 9 lines, which if they are high will kill them instantly, if they are low then they won't get me with the combo anyway unless they are lucky with their blocks, at which point I say well played and hope they are not lucky with their blocks next time. I reckon with a middle 4 player you just have to bide your time and try to just try to counter their garbage as best you can in whatever way you like (I prefer tetrising and the odd off the cuff tspin), and when they have finished their combo, then start playing them on their own merit.


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Blink
post Mar 25 2010, 03:06 AM
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has anyone found an efficient strategy against the middle gap combo start yet? me and Trance ran into one yesterday and it seems like you must pressure them with adds asap at the beginning of the round to stand any chance, and even then he would still take a lot more rounds than he should have.
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