1. 4-Wides Burst on the scene- The 4-wide was not a new technique at the time, but when Secret Salamander featured the middle-gap 4-wide in his epic playoff match versus Blink in HDO2, people were left in awe. Salamander eventually lost the match, but won an astounding 7 of 10 matches in which he used the 4-wide.
This was perhaps one of the most influential recent match-ups as it has spread like a wildfire throughout the Tetris realm.
2. Middle vs. Side stacked- There are two effective ways in which to stack for a 4-wide, in the middle and on the side. Both have advantages and downfalls.
a. Middle- The middle stacked 4-wide was revolutionized by Secret Salamander and unveiled spectacularly in his match-up versus Blink. This version of the technique is the more difficult of the two to preform, as it takes a lot of practice to learn the stacking methods that go into the middle gap. However, this has much more power potential than the side stacked. You can stack higher, will less risk of topping out. Because the stacking method is more difficult, players often find themselves clearing lines in the center in order to greaten the potential of the combo. This means that this stacking method takes longer to build, than side stacked.
b. Side- This more traditional combo method has different advantages than the alt. method. Since its staking method is much simpler, it is much quicker to build and begin your combo. However, the power potential is much less since there is a fairly high likely hood of a top out.
3. Starts- There are 4 basic starts when beginning a 4-wide: S/Z, alt. S/Z, I, and L/J.
Please see fumen of the starts at the bottom.
4. Previews- its is important to use your previews continuously during the comboing process. Make sure to play out in your head the next few pieces to capture the best possible approach.
5. Hold- It is imperative you use your holds wisely when comboing using 4-wide. The best pieces to save are the I, O, and T blocks as they are useful is most situations you may encounter.
6. Piece Selection during combo- Most newbie 4-widers have the most trouble in this particular skill of 4-wide. This is unfortunate because THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART! Most throw the combo away making little mistakes here and there, nullifying the power of the 4-wide completely. You must strive to keep a "start"-like situation for the next block to continue.
also: see fumen at end
7. Use of 4-wide- Though not as effective as it once was (see blink 3-wide ) the 4-wide is still hated by many who have meet a quick doom. Many swear by this tactic and almost exclusively use it. For others is it a feel, match-up, or simply the only hope they have. For slower players, the power of the 4-wide is the only chance for one to steal a victory off of the elite.
8. Combo Garbage-for combo chains the lines sent are as follows: (combo#, lines sent), (1.0)(2,1)(3,1)(4,2)(5,2)(6,3)(7,3)(8+,4)
9. Fumen library-
Sample builds of middle combo (from SS v Blink)
Yeah kotetsu definitely made 4wide middle combo gap popular after the HDO2 playoff match. When he pulled it on me, I didn't know what to do because I never faced this strategy before. I think I've figured out a pretty good counter now though, and the neatness of TF's garbage was another thing I should have taken into consideration before sending him garbage he could send back to me as soon as he finished his combo. This is a good guide, i'm sure it will help alot of players who are trying to learn this (although I find combo starters annoying!) .
there are no downfalls for middle unless you suck. its faster once you get it down by far
3. Starts- There are 4 possible starts when beginning a 4-wide: S/Z, alt. S/Z, I, and L/J.
not true, there are many ways to set up/execute a 4-wide combo, and do NOT try to memorize my chart as the ultimate reference, that's ONLY if you want to play with 3 pieces of "junk" (you don't have to) and there are a few states that I didn't even take into account when making that. (I won't add them any time soon btw)
I did this as a "throwaway" technique; I saw someone do it on TOJ, I thought it was broken so I tried it out. It didn't work at all against Maserati, but I tried it against Blink anyway since that was the only practical way I could get points against him. In the end it still didn't work (7-15, not 7-10) so I threw it away. I tried it again on TOJ and rowaks, Hebo-MAI, etc will simply flat-out not let you do it.
So I threw it away again and never use it unless I'm playing around, or someone says "I saw your game! Show me 4-wide!!!" Not like I have to do it myself since everyone seems to be doing it, nowadays.
Simply put: it's overrated, and if you try to rely on it to win, you won't get far. If you think you're hot stuff just because you can open with it every game, NEWSFLASH: you're not.
Put simply, it's another tactic. It'll work on some players on some games, and not against other players in other games. Just as on tf low tspins are a bad start but on toj they're good (Oversimplification I know but by and large it's true), 4 wide is good against some players (I remember playing an HDO match against TomatoKirby and without using it, I'd have lost hard, but with it I won) and bad against others (I got hammered by Trance when I tried to use it). The elite won't let you get away with it but it's a nice tactic against slower players.
EDIT in 2014: This post is bs, on tf low t-spins are a good start.
really nice tutorial
well in my opinion combos are just... lame. i mean, don't get me wrong, i do combos too, but not like combo starters, i'm kinda good with combos while downstacking, and SOMETIMES i do combo starters.
BUT the thing that i love about tetris is just that i sit and play without thinking.
And whenever you face a player who is comboer, who does mid gap 4 wide all the time... the FUN is over.
its all about finding a way to survive the initial combo and thats the point where the real game begins... and my point is, if i play a game of tetris i get excited, and whenever i play combo player im like "not this sh** again".
Sure i can do 4 wide too, and counter the combo, but i really don't like it that much. Stacking for 4 wide is boring as hell ;/ I have nothing against players who combo from time to time, but i simply hate playing against ppl who do combos only. Its just boring.
Oh and if someone wins with 4 wide combo only, can't call himself a good player. Good player is someone who can win with others playing without combos, that is tspins or even better tetrises. you call yourself a good player ? prove it in every game, not only combo/tspin friendly one
peace out !
make tetrises not wars !
Guys, this is a strategy. PERIOD. not some sort of philosophy or religion. There is no point of bickering back and forth about the merits of using this verses not using this. It is a strategy, just like bravo openings. Are they the best thing to use every time you play, of course not. This is a weapon to have in one's arsenal, if one choses to use it every time time, thats their choice.
I made this guide because I have been asked by at least 10 people to teach them this tactic and if they want to learn, let them. There was a large lack of organized 4-wide material so I tried to bring everything together so people can find their way through it like we did when we were first learning t-spins.
This is exactly what the title says "a guide to 4-wide combos" not a bible preaching that these are the greatest thing since sliced bread :/
In my opinion, mid gap 4 wide is the strongest start possible. If players could do it every time, I don't see why they wouldn't. It's overpowered, easy to use, and you have nothing to lose if you are good at it. The only reason why I don't 4-wide is simply because I can't. I'd like to put in some time to learn it, but I'll do that after HDO3. It's the only opening attack that needs a strategy to counter it. Every other opening results in a fairly balanced opening stage regardless of if you choose to B2B tetris, B2B TSD, or B2B TST. Hell, you can even f*** up badly while the opponent spams tetris's and TSD's and it's still fairly balanced due to how the line add mechanics work. However vs a 4 wide combo'er, if you mess up your own opening... you're dead. That's that. Game over.
Rutubo is the best mid gap 4-wide combo'er hands down and he wins way more matches against me than he would without his ability to 12-15 combo every game. Everyone can say that they have their own viable way to counter this strategy, but in reality all you're saying is that you're fast enough to survive it to bring it to mid-game. Even Blink will easily die if he makes one MD. Sure, if he is able to send line after line after line at 55+ LPM, he can survive a 4-wide opening, but the only real counter is to 4-wide back.
It's an overpowered opening that seamlessly transitions you to mid game without any handicap... it's broken. I need to learn how to do it.
Another thing I noticed people are saying is whether it "works" or if it doesn't "work". It's funny because what they're really saying is whether it'll instant KO the opponent... or if it doesn't instant KO the person . See what I did there? If it doesn't instant-KO, it's still a superior opening in the grand scheme of things. It just means that when it doesn't give you an instant win, you're at the same spot everyone else is at mid game that doesn't 4-wide except that you had a greatly increased chance to take the match at the beginning. How is this not completely broken?
Either you didn't read my whole post or you just misunderstood me. Exactly what you typed is exactly what I said, except that you disaggreed. I normally wouldn't respond to something like this, but I'm bored at work so here goes...
-4 wide is hard to do (That's an opinion though)
-4 wide sends a huge amount of lines
-Both players have the same maps so thus the only real counter is to 4 wide back because everything else is simply less powerful, or equal to (typically requires a speed advantage using the same less powerful openings).
My post was a comparison between openings. 4 wide vs everything else. Garbage blocking mechanics and symmetrical fields does not change the fact that a 4 wide opening is the most powerful.
"In balanced games people can do whatever they want.", I don't see your point here. This has nothing to do with my conclusion that 4 wide opening is broken. It's probably just semantics here, but then you're just arguing something that I didn't say. "Broken" refers to overpowered due to a manipulation of the mechanics of the game. It's broken in terms of how actually practical it is to use and how powerful it actually is compared to every other opening out there. It's a mechanic that in 95% of mid-end game matches you will never hit a 12+ combo (and you almost always win if you can pull it off mid-end game) yet can be manipulated/taken advantage of as an opening to pull off a 12-15 combo every game. Combos are not overpowered. Combo openings are.
With this opening, someone who normally wins 1 out of every 10 games is able to win 5 out of every 10 games (10% vs 50%). Thus, with equal players who normally wins 5 out of every 10 games, they would almost certainly take the set if they opened with a 4-wide. I pulled these numbers out of my a**, but there are plenty of examples out there that prove this.
Ex. Paul676 "I remember playing an HDO match against TomatoKirby and without using it, I'd have lost hard, but with it I won"
I concluded that because there is NO opening out there that > a 4 wide, only openings that <= a 4 wide, that 4 wide is the strongest and that is why it is overpowered/broken/the best/the most powerful... whatever you want to call it.
I don't feel like 4wide is broken, what IS broken is that players don't die until their spawned piece touches something. That's the reason why the 4wide middle is so much more powerful than just a regular 4wide. Players just stack on the sides and don't even have to start their combo until they're near death. I think they need to make it so that if garbage reaches a certain height above your playfield you're dead even if it doesn't touch a spawned piece.
They don't have to start their combo, but they can't stack either, if you've built 11 rows high and I've already sent 9 lines to you, unless you can clear the garbage, you aren't gonna be stacking any higher, and if you try, you die.
if your stratagie is 4 wide and you win you are good enough of better than them. is just like tetris ing
LOL. Grammar, Spelling, and Punctuation Policeee, we ooo we ooo we ooo.
I propose the following heuristic to nerf center gap 4-wide. (and center gap in general, though it affects 4 wide most)
Count total blocks in and above the playfield.
if there are ever more than
183 blocks in and above you field after line clear at any time, you lose, even if you didn't lock out.
I figure this as a full field of standard garbage is 180 blocks.
we add four above the field to that, that should be a lock out.
This is the most generous one I can think of.
Lets say you've got a full stack on each side. that's 120. 9 lines of garbage at that point will top you out.
If this is to hard to program, then work it this way.
If the ninth row above the top gets a block in it, you lose, even if the center is clear.
...or just bring combos down to a reasonable power level?
It would take a huge nerf in combos to keep center gap 4 wide from becoming too powerful. I'm not even sure capping it at 2 extra lines per clear would be enough.
With new TF garbage system, it seems like it favors the 4-wide even more and strengthens it. Eventually they'll make it so strong that once the system registers that you're doing a 4-wide, you auto-win.
The fact is that I think they made that high of combos so strong because they never imagined a combo past the 2 wide.
The biggest keys with combos in general IMO are to get them down to the point where you naturally downstack via combos...now that so many open with combos it's not as huge of a deal anyway. So the most I think anyone can take from this is to get used to the patterns/slides you wouldn't have done in the past to continue a combo while downstacking. It helps keep pressure on your opponent and what may have before been a 6-7 combo now with knowledge of spins/weird slides turns into a mid-game 11-12 combo and results in a win. I know that's what I've personally taken/learned from comboing in general. Obviously it depends on the version your playing and the garbage but quite often you can do your initial combo and then start building around incoming garbage after that if you don't get the initial KO. A secondary 10-11 combo will almost always get the job done so I do think there's a lot of validation to comboing techniques. I feel like most of the versions rely quite a lot on speed obviously if you look at who in general are considered to be the best they're usually sub 30 sec players. So I think when a person like s0nic comes along it really helps validate 4-wide because he's not amazingly fast but if you allow him to build up and he pulls off some brilliant 16-20 combo on you your most definitely dead.
Zero!!! I blame you for the rise of 4-widers!!!
middle stacked 4 wide is @$#@%%. seriously.
something they might wanna do is if the blocks on the side rise above 20 height or 22 height, they get cut off. so then what could be a 14-15 combo would only be abt 10-11 combo, which is manageable
Yeah, those noobs like me hate going against combo players. For all the T-spins and b2b Tetris I send are nullified by Combo number 7 on Tetris Friends =.=
But I do have to agree with SirTetris on the whole learning how to utilise weird spins in the middle of the game. I've found that I perform a lot better when I'm downstacking via combo than building up and tetrising. In some ways, it sucks because I'd prefer to win through other means but that's life I guess. =/
Combos seem rather brainless, same thing over and over and over again... Gets repetitive,, and IMO it doesnt take as much skill as doing spins and stacking fast. They are overpowered on Tf and it makes the more skilled players have lower ranks (despite rank meaning basically nothing)... the power needs to be lowered...
im not scared of 4 wide comboers, unless their super fast
i have never played against a 4 wide comboer who could consistently kill me with it, a quick 3 wide combo can combo most of the garbage, and its more consitent.
the only person imo that can bash combos is SS
everyone else should stop bitching about the power of combos because they probably cant do them.
its kinda like "tspins are overpowered because they send so many lines and i dont know how to do them"
i wonder why so many use tspins nowadays....
to those who can counter 4 wides, well done
i personally think 4 gap is a little overrated, so i do 4 wide, i like it cuz its faster and if your careful u wont early top out all that often
I've no problem with T-spins because people that tetris well can eventually over come it. I'm sure there are many here that can perform 4-wides or 3-wides, and still feel that it's over-powered against your normal game. It doesn't help the fact that people's methods in countering seem to be consisting of either Sub 50 speeds or using their own combos.
It's like the first page suggests, it's a method of stealing a couple of wins against the elite. That pretty much sums it up.
I'm new to Tetris, Hell I just found out about Tspins about a week ago.
So im practicing this 4 wide combo thing, and I kinda just wanted to know if a pro player could consistently never have breaks in their combo. I know its going to take a while for me to get used to doing combos perfectly but im at the point where I dont know if i am just misplacing blocks or if some set ups are just utterly impossible.
If a typical 'pro' loads up nullpomino and sets it on race to like 99, would he get it the majority of the time?
A complete 99 combo on nullpo combo race is rare. I've done it a few times. But that's it, a few times.
A 4-wide pro would get about 50 at most before the combo breaks very soon.
But you shouldn't really make a 99 combo top priority; that mode should be used mostly to build up your speed.
My biggest problem right now is countering combos. I've had to switch my starting approach a ton to adjust to combo's. I think most know me as a BB player who's drowning in this TOJ/TF world lol. So far the only way i seem to be able to counter combos is to combo myself. i pretty much have to start stacking for a combo and if i don't get immediate garbage from my opponent then i know he's stacking for a combo and we combo duel i guess and thats for opponents who are considerably slower then me. i just don't understand the system sometimes, i remember the other day on Null i sent over three tetrises one was B2B before my opponent even started his combo and i still got topped out.
Well profane, the reason combos get to you is because you don't have an apm as high as you need to. I know you already do, but you need to try to add some t-spins to your arsenal.
Once you perform them well, combos shouldn't be a problem for you at all.
Yea especially if you are using some effective T-Spin openings and do it at fairly fast speed combo stackers might just end up starting the combo early if not topping out .
Well except the 4-wide on the center O_o I haven't thought about it before (coz I've never faced anyone with any 4-wide openings)
I hope I understand this thread correctly.
So are these the conclusion of this thread?
- the 4-wide center is overpowered?
- combos on TF is overpowered?
- something has to be changed to prevent the two things above?
- combos are very good for beginners?
hey, I just encountered an impossible situation when starting with a l piece (starting with a left l start I got J, z and s). Do you know if there are any impossible situations for starts with z/s? or the s/z alt?
There are tons of times where you will have impossible situations. If you are talking about combo race, then you can simply restart. In game you have use those pieces in your build up or skim them away.
If you have to start stacking to cancel, you're screwed. If it was allspins, you could maybe have set up a JSD to cancel with and ditch a couple pieces. If it's combo race, you could lay the J flat, blocking the hole, and knock out a 4-residue combo up until you're able to stack into the bottom again with a vertical I or something.
you're right... there are sooo many impossibles
it just seemed like all the pros never ran into them how often do you think you run into them? (I just wanna know if I'm getting any good at planning ahead with my previews)
I made a quick video of me playing combo race. I make tons of mistakes all the time and frankly im not as good at this as I was a year ago.
Read the description: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blhXJ6AaE7o
I'm just going to leave this here:
That is exactly the mindtrip I've been looking for... I just made it my new homepage.
Well there you have it lol
Hey anyone use 'mini' 4- wides mid game? Maybe just six or seven high, even less. I was thinking they could be especially effective because they don't have to be tall, they could be built on the side more safely because of their shortness meaning they'd be fast to build, and it gives good messy garbage. This could be combined with a prophecy TSD into a Tetris over the optimal garbage. I think this would be a great KO move that could be approached even from a great height by simply modifying it to a center gap style. I doubt I'm inventing this move, so if you've used it, tell me what you think.
Um, I fever isn't even a party item. it's a standard item, as I recall.
ANd yes, it's by far the easiest way to abuse 4 wide. ANyone who sets up a decent 4 wide and gets that item just wins, and that goes double for center gap..
MoM - you don't get it - if you can't stack/get a bad piece to upstack your 4-wide, you can plonk it in the bottom of the well. With those, you can sometimes use 2 or 3 of the lines to get tsds or tsts. That's what he's saying, and it's true
Ima 4 wide every game now, and if it fails i'll just top myself out
Wanna fight me Aaron :O
Can't seem to understand the 4 way method. this one a nice technique. but I do prefer to learn the t spin plus tetris method as a way of winning although this one is much more easier to learn I think.
Ok, I moved this post to its own thread titled 'http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3972
In short, the power of the skills can be seen as the following ratings:
Post on the new thread for comments and complaints ~
Might be mean to get good at ;D
I guess I should start practicing this first, before I enter the world of continuous T-Spins its been weeks since I'm practicing T-spins and sad to say I don't see any improvements. maybe this one It shed some light on my journey to become a good tetris player.
w/c is much better middle 4 wide or side ( i will practice >.< it's so hard and any tips
watch pro 4 widers do it, play combo race on npm, take a look at the wiki, and read the first post of this thread @ xbxcv
read it already... i just feel 4 wide mid is much easy to do when i do the side i fail though i fail in mid too but when i stack side is much easier yet if i do the combo i fail in side~
any tips on stacking??? im finding it difficult to stack for 4 wide middle T_T help!
try to balance your stack
i can stack well with side but not with mid hahaha.. i guees ill use side
no pain, no gain.
So i've never really heard the non combo strategy to breaking a combo starter. Usually i just do my normal opening try to stay low and hold an I piece to try to send lines back. any tips?
what do u think is the best counter of 4 wide?
w/c is much better 4 wide or 3 wide?
is there any noob friendly guides for doing a 4wide combo?
my head hurts just reading this because i cannot understand a thing
4wide walks into a bar and asks "where's the counter?"
K so what would you say the best technique is for someone that plays Arena on Tetris Friends? I'm a rank 17 and I've been looking around for different strategies and came across this. I originally left two open columns for combos until I saw this. Sometimes this works great for me but I wanted to know what you would suggest for what I play.
4 wide is more powerful than 2 or 3 wide, but you will probably get a bit of friendly abuse hurled at you at a high level if you combo start - so I'd t-spin, since it's good practice for midgame play
The main disadvantage in using a 4 wides when you get pressured early on. The decrease in the number of combos significantly nerfs the amount of lines sent. In rooms with really fast players who spam tspins right at the beginning, it may not be the best choice to 4 wide.
The biggest disadvantage in using a 4 wide is actually long-term. When you're using a 4 wide, you tend to either top out your opponent our get topped out yourself, and therefore you will practise midgame play less regularly than someone who starts t-spins, who will get into midgame much earlier and much more regularly than you. As such, you will improve less fast than them, and so even if you beat them one month, after 3 or 4 months they will be beating you.
I have first-hand experience of this - I got so rusty in my midgame play when I used 4-wide for a time as a tactic, so I went back to t-spins and have improved rapidly.
i am getting only 13 Combo in a 4_Wide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30te0tTIpuc&list=FLaDDMoBrO1cwMwe21ZyixUw&index=330&feature=plpp_video 4-Wide Combo with a Perfect Clear
Can anyone help me?? Im having trouble with Mini t-Spin with 4 Wide Like this.
Whenever i build 4 wide And if i have this v ,and The T Tetrimino is next i have a problem..
How do i t-spin the to it??
Everyime i try i ended up like this
Please Help Me!!
I even have problem inserting the red tetrimino from 3-6
This is Too Hard!!!!
I can do the Opposite ways Only Like the normal T-spin and inserting the green tetrimino.
Please Help me As i want to get better
Hey there, in cases like the ones you presented, you'll have to rotate your piece the other way.
Welcome to Harddrop ^_^
You are spinning the T the wrong way.. You spin it from CV, try spin it CCV ^^ That sould solve the problem with the T!
Also relevant: http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2255
An Example of a 4-Wide Combo
(I edited your post, cafeche. Click edit to see how to include fumens so that they work)
Edit: also, that is scary!
There many kinds of combo set ups, the 2 wide, 3 wide , and the very famous 4 wide. I think 4 wide is the best strategy to use in 6p battle, also works well 2p battle. To be a good 4 wider you should know how to look ahead, use hold effectively, using the right piece and can rotate in both directions. I think stacking is the hardest part at first because you need to stack only on 6 matrix columns, but as you play and practice you wouldn’t even notice that you are getting better at stacking. I recommend that you watch 4 wide videos on youtube, it’ll help you get the idea how 4 wide works.
The most commonly used 4 wide start is the "I tetrimino".
If you happen to encounter a block pattern which is not on the image then your combo is off.
This is a good place to practice 4w
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