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Forums - Hard Drop - Tetris Community _ Strategy/Help _ PC after 8 lines (was: C-Spin with first T placed vertically?)

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 24 2018, 11:56 PM

tldr: I am looking for a C-Spin / http://harddrop.com/wiki/Triple_Double_Attack_Setups setup where the first T piece is placed vertically. Something like this:



edit: For some further C-Spin setups with vertical T placements (and sometimes their corresponing PC probabilities), see http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=91741&#entry91741 post and http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92437&#entry92437 post.

I am interested in the concept of getting a Perfect Clear after exactly 8 cleared lines in a T-Spin setup. The nice thing about 8 lines is that you have placed a whole number of bags: 8 lines are 20 placed pieces; with 1 piece on hold it's exactly 3 bags that you use to arrange the placements. Despite of this fact, barely any build exists for 8 lines. TKI 3 opener usually goes for http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7843&st=0&p=90637&#entry90637, DT Cannon goes for http://tinyurl.com/ycedztk5, 26_nameless BT Cannon even goes for http://harddrop.com/wiki/BT_Cannon#BT_Cannon_C-Spin.

In order to achieve a PC the following 2 points must be fulfilled:

#L stands for the number of placed L pieces. #vertT stands for the number of vertically placed T pieces. #OddClear stands for the number of line clears that clear an odd number of lines with an odd number of empty cells below. I have tried to explain the reasons behind those theoretical results on the http://harddrop.com/wiki/Perfect_Clear_Opener#PC_Basics wiki article.

As illustration, let's have a look at the 26_nameless http://harddrop.com/wiki/BT_Cannon#BT_Cannon_C-Spin_In-Depth setup: It clears 14 lines with a DT Cannon into C-Spin into 4 lines PC. 14 lines are 35 pieces which form exactly 5 bags assuming that the first piece of the 8th bag is put on hold at the end of the setup. BT Cannon and C-Spin use 1 vertical T placement each. So #L + #J + #vertT = 5 + 5 + 2 = 12 is an even number. BT Cannon uses no odd clear (the first T-Spin clears 2 lines and the second T-Spin has no empty cells below), C-Spin uses 1 odd clear (namely the first T-Spin which clears 3 lines with 1 empty cell below) and there's no further odd clear during the 4-lines PC build. So #T + #OddClear = 5 + 1 = 6 is an even number.



Let's head back to the 8 lines PC. If you want to have a decent Perfect Clear chance, then you want to use the third bag's T, L and J pieces (all of them together). In this case the theoretical results simplify to:Again as illustration, let's have a look at achieving a PC after 8 lines in http://harddrop.com/wiki/MKO_Stacking#S_on_S_continuation. The first 2 T pieces are placed horizontally involving no odd clear (horizontal T-Spin Doubles are never odd). So, the following 4 lines must contain 1 odd line clear and the T piece must be placed horizontally - provided the third T piece is not kept on hold (like in 1st, 6th and 9th picture).


https://i.imgur.com/L4XTBYG.png

In fact, there's a nice 88 % chance to get a PC after 8 lines in MKO Stacking. However, most ways are nearly impossible to spot because pieces are cut in two halves by another line clear. If there's an odd clear in the last 4 lines, then at least 1 piece is always cut in two halves. So it's better to move the odd clear forward to the T-Spin phase. However, T-Spin Doubles with an horizontal T placement are never odd clears. So, in the following we will just look at setups that involve at least one T-Spin Single or T-Spin Triple that doesn't clear the bottom line.

One example would be http://harddrop.com/wiki/Hachispin. Actually, you can achieve a Perfect Clear here. While the T-Spin Single is not an odd clear (4 empty cells in bottom line), the T-Spin Triple is. The first T piece is placed horizontally and the second T piece vertically. So the third T piece must be placed vertically (not so nice) but no odd clear is needed (very nice). With 69 % the rate is not as high as for MKO Stacking but the PCs are much easier to spot (at least the first ones).


https://i.imgur.com/c3a92nK.png

Another example whould be the http://harddrop.com/wiki/Hachispin#pwn_by_numbers_variation of Hachispin. However, the setup is not that good for other reasons. Here the T-Spin Single is an odd clear (3 empty cells in bottom line), but the T-Spin Triple isn't (2 empty cells in bottom line). Both T pieces are placed vertically. So the third T piece must be placed horizontally (nice) and no odd clear is needed (very nice). With 83 % the rate is decent and the most likely possibilities are easy to spot.


IPB Image

Other Setups:

Now let's come to the setup that is the reason why I made this post: C-Spin aka http://harddrop.com/wiki/Triple_Double_Attack_Setups.



There's one T placement used to build the C-Spin which we will ignore for now. The T-Spin Triple is a vertical placement that results in an odd clear. The following T-Spin Double is a horizontal T placement that doesn't result in an odd clear. So we have one odd clear (which is nice) and we have one horizontal T placement (which is not so nice).

This means, if we place the first T piece horizontally, we can only achieve a PC after 8 lines, when substituing the T-Spin Double with a T-Spin Single (TST -> TSS -> PC) or by leaving either L or J piece on hold. Sadly, the first T piece will be placed horizontally in most builds. Example:



However, the http://harddrop.com/wiki/Triple_Double_Attack_Setups#The_C-Spin wiki article also features a way to place the first T piece vertically: TOJ Core aka TKI signature (I guess TKI knew what he was doing). If you stack the second bag like in the following, then there's a 88.6 % chance to get a Perfect Clear with the T placed horizontally on the bottom (TST -> TSD -> PC ; note that T on bottom doesn't necessarily mean T-Spin; the overhang could be already gone when the T piece is placed there).


https://i.imgur.com/t33CMfp.png

Any further ideas how to place the first T piece vertically in a C-Spin setup or how to stack the second bag?

Posted by: iljain Mar 25 2018, 02:09 AM

Grin.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V949jhwJb30&

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 27 2018, 07:43 AM

iljain showed a perfect clear after 10 cleared lines achieved on the standard SZ-start C-Spin. I am currently trying to write a T-Spin Opener page and would be interested in including the SZ-start C-Spin. However, I don't know much about it. But I think a perfect flat 6-rows high stack like in iljain's video would be nice. So, does anybody know how to achieve the following stack with either O or S piece not placed yet? (because this allows to go for T-Spin Triple or Imperial Cross.) The way in iljain's video doesn't count though because I want to think in bags: All pieces of first bag must be placed before the pieces of the second bag (in iljain's video the first O piece was hold until pretty late in the 2nd bag).



-----------------------------

This post is about 8-rows high PCs with T-Spin Single into 2 T-Spin Doubles (TSS -> TSD -> TSD -> PC). It should send at least 2 + 5 + 5 + 10 = 22 lines which could be enough to take out a center 4-wide player in games without garbage blocking (combo doesn't delay incoming garbage). That said, it's not useful against center 4-wide in games with garbage blocking because the 7 lines from TSS -> TSD are not enough to keep the combo short enough. Again we try to fulfill the 2 points:

The first point is a must-have for any PC. The second point is optional. If the second point is not fulfilled, then you must leave out either L or J piece in the PC.

I mentioned Imperial Cross in my previous post. It has an odd clear and a vertical T placement. If you use a T-Spin Single as prefix, then it needn't be an odd clear. A vertical placed T in the T-Spin Single would be nice to have but I found no way to do so (and I doubt that is possible because the Imperial Cross basically forces you to clear the second line which means that the first T-piece must be placed 1 row above bottom for a vertical T placement). However, this actually works with an S or Z start:



It's a 50% chance to get a PC after TSS -> TSD -> TSS. The last clear is just a T-Spin Single because you will need both L and J. However, if you place the pieces like in the 4th picture of the Fumen, then there are some ways to get a T-Spin Double at the end (either L or J is not placed) additionally to some ways to get a T-Single at the end (both L and J are placed)

IPB Image

Super T-Spin Double (STSD) is another way to get 2 T-Spin Doubles. STSD has no odd clear and one vertical T placement. If you use a T-Spin Single as prefix, then it must be an odd clear. A vertical placed T in the T-Spin Single would be nice to have and is indeed possible:



In the end we have two 3x3 blocks with a missing corner which has quite some ways to achieve a Perfect Clear:

IPB Image

And who says that you have to use a technique at all to get 2 T-Spin Doubles(?). If you just stack 2 seperate T-Spin Doubles, then you have no odd clear and no vertical T placement. If you use a T-Spin Single as prefix, then it must be an odd clear and it should be a horizontal placement. Something like this:



Again we have those 3x3 blocks with a missing corner in the end. The last Fumen is no serious suggestion, I just thought it would look nice because you the left half of the playfield doesn't interact at all with the right side (you are basically playing in 2 seperate 5-wide fields).

Generally speaking, I think 2 seperate T-Spin Doubles won't work out at all. You just don't know where to put the other pieces until finally the next T piece shows up. However, I think vertical T-Spin Single into STSD into 8-rows high PC could be useful, if a proper technique for it exists (my Fumen sucks because the first L piece does block the T-Spin).

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 28 2018, 05:54 AM

This post will be about achieving an 8th-row Perfect Clear after a STD = Single Triple Double attack. The STD will become a Singe Triple Single attack in half of the cases though. Basically, the stack will look like this:



The second row is cleared first and after it's gone you will have a reversed C-Spin / Triple Double Attack stack. Mr. T-Spin's STD, Pokemino's STD and Early I STD are the prime examples of STD attacks. In the fumen above the left half and right half of http://harddrop.com/wiki/Mr._T-Spin%27s_STD are swapped.

Again, to achieve the goal of a Perfect Clear,we must make exactly 1 odd line clear. This is done by clearing the T-Spin Triple with an odd number of empty cells below (usually 1 hole). Pokemino's STD will also make the T-Spin Single with an odd number of empty cells below. So, in Pokemino's STD the player is forced to make an odd line clear in the last 2 or 3 lines. However, this is not necessary in almost every other STD setup.

In my last posts I spoke about how an even number of vertical T placements can help to increase the probability of a Perfect Clear. Sadly, this isn't the case for STDs. Major reason is that the left side doesn't interact with the right side at all. The 8 columns on the left are basically a rectangle with a missing I piece. No piece intersects that border, so the result that #L + #J #vertT must be an even number also applies to this area. In the first and second bag, 3 out of the 4 L and J pieces will go there as well as the first T piece. If this T piece is placed horizontally, then in the third bag either L or J piece will be placed there. If the first T piece is placed vertically, then in the third bag both L and J will be placed in that area. In this case a T-Spin Single is not possible (because you have no L left for the right side). Not only does a vertical T placement prevent T-Spin Singles, it doesn't really increase the chance to get a T-Spin Double. More Ls and Js only really increase chances when they can interact with an O piece but the O piece is needed on the right side.

In my first post I included a Fumen of Early I STD. It uses a horizontal T placement in first bag which means that in third bag either L or J are placement on the left 8 columns and both T-Spin Double (O piece on the right) and T-Spin Single (J piece on the right) are possible.



Actually, I had underestimated Early I STD. I came up with it some years ago and thought it would be useless (so that generic name, maybe it even deserves a real name). But by now, I could imagine it's quite useful against 4-wide players in games without garbage blocking. If you get a T-Spin Double in third bag followed by a Perfect Clear, then it sends at least 2 + 7 + 5 +10 = 24 lines within 3 bags which should be enough to kill the 4-wide player. With a T-Spin Single into Perfect Clear, it sends 1 or 2 lines less. Note that no other setup should be able to send more lines in just 3 bags. On the downside, the PC chance is not that high. The initial T-Spin Single into T-Spin Triple is enough to keep the 4-wide short, if you can get them within 2 bags. And that's the real disadvantage in comparison to Mr. T-Spin's STD which guarantees to get the Single Triple in the first 2 bags no matter how the second bag looks like. Plus Mr. T-Spin's STD (and Pokemino's STD) have less dependencies in the first bag.

The 3 mentioned STDs are pretty much the only STDs you can do with the first T piece placed in the bottom row and only Early I STD can really result in a Perfect Clear (unless you change how the overhang is stacked in Mr. T-Spin's STD which takes away its advantage in second bag namely that it is always guaranteed to work because of the multiple ways how the OSZ block can be stacked). However, there are some further STDs where the T piece is placed one row higher. In this case the player can also decide between a horizontal and vertical T placement.



So how do those setups perform in comparison to Early I TSD regarding Perfect Clear chances? Sadly not better as much as I can tell. I only tried those placements where it's possible to get the T-Spin Triple within the second bag and there're barely any ways to make that work. An example where it works:



And for the LOLz, 2 examples for leaving some cells empty in the bottom row (like in Hachispin). Leaving cells empty will make it significantly easier to place pieces in a way that the T-Spin Triple is ready within second bag but it will also make the last T-Spin Double / Single more troublesome. This time the first T piece is placed vertically but that doesn't help.



Summarized: Single Triple Double attacks will never have a good chance for a 8th-row Perfect Clear because the overhang is basically one row too high and thus prevents an exchange of the left stack with the right stack. That exchange is still possible in classic C-Spin though (1 row shorter) where the PC chance can be decent, if the first T piece is placed vertically (in case of STD the orientation of the first T piece doesn't really matter). Thus, getting 6 T-Spin lines can be quite a hurdle for achieving a 8th row Perfect Clear. However, it's not that problematic for 5 T-Spin lines as seen in C-Spin (with first T placed vertically) and Single-Double-Double (that Imperial Cross setup performed well, STSD is also worth researching).

Posted by: pwn_by_numbers Mar 28 2018, 12:43 PM

Interesting stuff. I have been thinking about 8 high PC openers as well, my thought process being that if you can attack with the first 2 bags, you could theoretically have a systematic way to place every mino in the 3rd bag for the PC.

QUOTE
If you want to have a decent Perfect Clear chance, then you want to use the third bag's T, L and J pieces (all of them together).


I'm assuming this is just so you aren't forced to hold one the pieces?

QUOTE
However, most ways are nearly impossible to spot because pieces are cut in two halves by another line clear. If there's an odd clear in the last 4 lines, then at least 1 piece is always cut in two halves. So it's better to move the odd clear forward to the T-Spin phase.


I personally don't find it much harder to find PCs that involve a line clear... Isn't avoiding this limiting your options quite a bit? (For example in the standard 4-high system there are quite a few ways to clear it that involve odd-line clears.)

---

Going back to 3-bag/8-high PCs, I was thinking they would be useful for designing a better opener for playing vs Puyo in PPT. I noticed how a lot of these methods involve TSS, which is more powerful vs Puyo. However, comboing attacks is much more important, so the methods with split up attacks might not be as effective.

Going off the garbage table https://harddrop.com/wiki/Puyo_Puyo_Tetris#Tetris_vs_Puyo_.28Versus.29, here's some potential 3 bag openers:

4 doubles = 1,1,1,1 -> 4+4+4+4 = 16
8 combo (singles) = 7 -> 16
tsd,tsd,tsd = 3,4,4 -> 6+6+8 = 20
tsd,tst,tsd = 3,5,4, -> 6+10+8 = 24 (alb)
tsd,tsd+tsd = 3,8-> 6+20 = 26
tsd+tsd,tsd = 7,4-> 16+8 = 24
tsd+tst = 7 = 16 (DT, cspin)
tsd,tst = 3,4 -> 6+8 = 14 (broken up dt)
tsd,tsd,tetris = 3,4,5 -> 6+8+10 = 24
tsd+tsd,tetris = 7,5 -> 16+10 = 26
tsd,tsd+tetris = 3,9 -> 6+24 = 30
tss,tst,tsd = 2,5,4 -> 5+10+8 = 23
tss,tss,tss+tetris = 2,3,8 -> 5+6+20 = 31
tetris,tetris = 4,5 -> 8+10 = 18
tetris+tetris = 9 -> 24
pc,pc (4highs) = 6,6 -> 13+13 =26 (can be better if you get 2 combos for 7, could be 16+16)

Notice how bad DT cannon or C-spin are vs other openers. Also 2 PCs is barely better than 2 Tetrises. Can we do better? Imagine tss,tss,tss+tetris+single for a PC - this would send 2,3,15 for 55 puyo! Granted this isn't very practical, but it shows the power of adding a PC into a combo. Tetris into a 4 combo PC sends 4+3+6 = 13 -> 46 puyo, this is still way better than any other potential opener, and probably not too hard to setup.

For example, the following setup has a 98% PC rate with I in hold!



... Too bad it's impossible to stack. Something basic like the fumen below only gets a 76% clear rate. I can't find a good way to add extra blocks on the right hand side without taking away either the Tetris or the easy combo...



What about Tetris+TSS->PC all in one combo?



A setup like this seems really good in some ways. 100% success rate if you start with TI. Finding the PCs is really easy too. But setting up the Tetris with a TSS requires the T to come first, and it's hard to not break the combo when PCing. Still, that example sends 16+13, for 29 total, so even breaking the combo leads to a decent opener. (Note: if you could build this setup with T in hold, it has an 88% PC rate, so not terrible.)

What about TSS mini 4w -> PC?



This has a 100% PC rate with T in hold! If you can combo the whole thing it will send 43!



If you can't clear without breaking the combo it's still decent - this one sends 29:



Still working on a consistent way to actually set any of these up. Any thoughts?

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 28 2018, 09:46 PM

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 28 2018, 12:43 PM) *
QUOTE
If you want to have a decent Perfect Clear chance, then you want to use the third bag's T, L and J pieces (all of them together).

I'm assuming this is just so you aren't forced to hold one the pieces?

Yes, T, L and J are the pieces with 4 rotation states, so you have more options to place them as O, S, Z and I pieces. I was majorly referring to setups where you try to make a T-Spin in the third bag. In this case you have just the L and J piece to make the PC happen. For example, to fill a perfect rectangle you will always need both L and J.

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 28 2018, 12:43 PM) *
QUOTE
However, most ways are nearly impossible to spot because pieces are cut in two halves by another line clear. If there's an odd clear in the last 4 lines, then at least 1 piece is always cut in two halves. So it's better to move the odd clear forward to the T-Spin phase.

I personally don't find it much harder to find PCs that involve a line clear... Isn't avoiding this limiting your options quite a bit? (For example in the standard 4-high system there are quite a few ways to clear it that involve odd-line clears.)

I think the necessary of the odd clear (if you want to use 3rd bag's T piece) is the reason why you don't see 8th-row PCs often after T-Spin openers. If you want to have an outstanding PC chance in practice (and not just on paper), then you have to make the odd clear during the first 2 bags. I am not saying that making the odd clear during the first 2 bags is always better though (I am just saying that forcing an odd clear in 3rd bag is suboptimal).

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 28 2018, 12:43 PM) *
Still working on a consistent way to actually set any of these up. Any thoughts?

So you are basically trying to find a way to beat a Puyo player with the 2 things that got nerfed in the last patch: Perfect Clears and combos. I don't know if this is the right way. You try to optimize your garbage/trash output but at the same time you give the Puyo player more time. And a Puyo player profits more from having time than a Tetris player. The Tetris' player garbage output per time behaves like a quadratic function at best (or maybe cubic with a long 4-wide) whereas it's almost exponentially for a Puyo player.

I don't think you will have much success in finding a setup that starts with a Tetris or T-Spin, that continues with a combo and ends with a PC. Is the Tetris really worth the trouble? It's maybe 2 lines that you send more compared to a longer combo.

I don't really know about Tetris into PC builds, so I will just speak about classic combo into 8th-row PC. Classic combos can have a 100% PC chance. However, most often the 100% just orginate from the sheer amount of solutions that end in a PC. A 6-pieces PC will have about one thousand of different PC solutions but each solution only works for a little amount of bags. Also remember that you will most likely have to make an odd clear during the execution (unless you clear a line somewhere in the middle before you start the PC).

There's an easy way to build a 3-wide:



This 6-pieces PC has a 100% PC chance. https://github.com/knewjade/solution-finder fails to tell me the best solutions because it runs out of memory (too many possible ways to place the pieces). So I dropped an O piece in it in which case you still have a 100% PC chance (with the now remaining 6 pieces) and the best solutions look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/2ZDsahe.png

I also tried this out myself in NullpoMino Practice mode (you can define Maps there and disable certain pieces). My PC success rate was under 50% and half of the time I left the T piece on hold (this can avoid the odd clear). Moreover, I also broke the combo in almost 50% the cases in which I succeeded. 4-wide is better to keep the combo and still achieve the PC in my opinion.

The only way to build a 4-wide combo that I know is like this:



I just included the last frames because of those ridiculous S-Spin and Z-Spin Triples. I think it's better to have 5 or 9 residuals on bottom than having that Z piece overhang on top and 3 residuals. If I remember correctly, the PC chance wasn't 100% in both cases.

The rest of my post will be just of theoretical nature. I want to compare 4-wide with and without an odd clear beforehand. I consider the 2 following builds pretty much optimal for 7-high builds (I am assuming a line was already cleared because they can't be stacked without a line clear). I don't think there's an actual way to stack them. Both setups have a 100% success rate on paper.



As said before, you can try it out yourself in NullpoMino Practice Mode (with maps). In the first setup, I could achieve a PC in roughly 80% of the cases. I think I could increase it to 95% with some practice. It's pretty much straight forward: you try to place the T piece horizontally (so you can use both L and J), you try to avoid an odd clear (unless you don't want to place the T piece), or make 2 odd clears in quick succession (e.g. laying J piece flat followed by L piece). Moreover, I basically never broke the combo.

Here are 30 of the 31 solutions without any split pieces. Those solutions alone have a 66% success rate.

https://i.imgur.com/DGsxzIb.png

And here are 30 most frequent solutions with at least 1 split piece:

https://i.imgur.com/TfeGHsS.png

Now towards the second setup: Like in the 3-wide example, my success rate was under 50% and half of the time I succeeded I left the T piece on hold (in which case one can sometimes avoid the odd clear). Sometimes, it took me until 2 remaining pieces to still spot a PC opportunity. On the plus side, I basically never broke the combo.

And here are 30 most frequent solutions. Note that I removed a line and assumed a horizontal I piece placement or otherwise the solution finder would have run out of memory again. Also note the odd clear if T was placed.

https://i.imgur.com/UjsGK5H.png

Posted by: pwn_by_numbers Mar 29 2018, 10:12 AM

QUOTE(Okey_Dokey @ Mar 28 2018, 02:46 PM) *

Yes, T, L and J are the pieces with 4 rotation states, so you have more options to place them as O, S, Z and I pieces. I was majorly referring to setups where you try to make a T-Spin in the third bag. In this case you have just the L and J piece to make the PC happen. For example, to fill a perfect rectangle you will always need both L and J.


Hmm this logic makes sense, but can you back it up with any data? From messing around with sfinder, I've noticed certain patterns will have much higher success rates with certain pieces, but I haven't noticed a bias towards L and J. (I have however noticed that T seems to be favored significantly.)

QUOTE

I think the necessary of the odd clear (if you want to use 3rd bag's T piece) is the reason why you don't see 8th-row PCs often after T-Spin openers. If you want to have an outstanding PC chance in practice (and not just on paper), then you have to make the odd clear during the first 2 bags. I am not saying that making the odd clear during the first 2 bags is always better though (I am just saying that forcing an odd clear in 3rd bag is suboptimal).


I think the reason you don't see people doing 8-high PCs isn't because they can't see odd clears, it's just that no one has bothered to learn them yet. Just from my personal experience learning PC openers (pure PC opener -> multiple PCs and DT PC), it's more a matter of just doing each pattern enough times to get an intuitive sense of what works and doesn't work. Sometimes it just makes sense to do an odd line clear, and it's just as easy for me to see as any other pattern.

When you say "in practice and not just on paper" I'd argue that one should first optimize on paper and then practice all the possibilities. To get a high PC percentage, you really only need to memorize a small number of patterns - for the normal PC opener there's what, 10 or 20 to cover every possibility? (Sounds like a lot, but its combinations of 4-5 pieces, with a lot of mirroring and similarities, I learned them all in ~1hr.) In trying to come up with a system for DT PC I found that with just 3 systems, I can get >90% success from the 3rd bag.

QUOTE

So you are basically trying to find a way to beat a Puyo player with the 2 things that got nerfed in the last patch: Perfect Clears and combos. I don't know if this is the right way. You try to optimize your garbage/trash output but at the same time you give the Puyo player more time. And a Puyo player profits more from having time than a Tetris player. The Tetris' player garbage output per time behaves like a quadratic function at best (or maybe cubic with a long 4-wide) whereas it's almost exponentially for a Puyo player.


The thing is both PC and combos on their own are useless and worse than simple T-Spin or Tetris spam, but the garbage table heavily favors attacks combined in combo, in that once your attack is at 5, every additional +1 from a combo adds 3 puyo - as much as a TSD. Like I showed in my last post, an 8 combo on it's own would send just 16 puyo, but an 7 combo -> PC would send 43 (7 combo because you'll almost always end with a double). Even with the extra line clear delay, you're easily sending as much garbage as you could sending a fast opener and then an extra bag worth of pieces, so I think it'd be worth it.

I actually stopped doing DT cannon vs Puyo because it's so slow. The best I've found so far is things like albatross or TKI where I can just send a TSD/TSS or Tetris every bag to keep the pressure on. But against the best players it's not enough garbage to force them to do anything and they just build up a chain and win. Spikes are necessary to actually win vs a competent puyo. I noticed in the midgame that a T-Spin/Tetris spike -> a decent downstack combo sends a huge amount, so why couldn't I just do this from the opener? If you're not building up a giant combo there's no reason it has to be slow enough for the puyo to build a huge chain - I'm guessing there's a point where it becomes not worth it to stack up anymore, and ~3bags seems to be around where that is.

QUOTE


I don't think you will have much success in finding a setup that starts with a Tetris or T-Spin, that continues with a combo and ends with a PC. Is the Tetris really worth the trouble? It's maybe 2 lines that you send more compared to a longer combo.



You may be right here, I hadn't considered that a pure combo->PC could be as good as mixing in a T-Spin or Tetris. If my math is right, it's probably only better to mix them in if you can do both, unless there's an easy way to add a TSS to the builds you demonstrated without compromising PC chance or combo-ability. Thanks for those diagrams, I'll have to test some of these out and see how effective they are.

---

Switching gears a little bit, I think you mentioned iron cross as a potential 8-high PC earlier. Here's something I accidentally did in a game today - maybe has potential to become a good 8-high PC system?



Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 29 2018, 07:27 PM

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 29 2018, 10:12 AM) *
Hmm this logic makes sense, but can you back it up with any data? From messing around with sfinder, I've noticed certain patterns will have much higher success rates with certain pieces, but I haven't noticed a bias towards L and J.

No, I cannot back that up with data.

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 29 2018, 10:12 AM) *

Thanks for those diagrams, I'll have to test some of these out and see how effective they are.

I think I have found a good way to stack the 7 rows-high 4-wide with 4 residuals with an odd clear beforehand. However, it should be only a 5 combo most of the times whereas it's likely that the last line clear is the Double (which doesn't send an extra line if PC). So it won't send many lines to the Puyo player. You use one L piece from first bag and one J piece from second bag to make that odd clear. With some luck that (odd) line clear itself increases the length of the combo by 1. Setup will basically look like this:



The grey area can be built like this:

IPB Image
https://i.imgur.com/gMQZJPH.png

Note that there are way too many possibilities to fill a 6-wide grey area, so I left out the I pieces and in setup #1 also the O pieces.

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 29 2018, 10:12 AM) *

Switching gears a little bit, I think you mentioned iron cross as a potential 8-high PC earlier. Here's something I accidentally did in a game today - maybe has potential to become a good 8-high PC system?

Iron Cross must be a synonym for Imperial Cross. The nice thing is that Imperial Cross has an odd clear which is the important part for me (it's the only T-Spin setup with an odd clear except for Triple Double Attacks and second row T-Spin Singles with an odd number of holes below). I think it's best to combine it with an initial T-Spin (Single or Double). You can do so with the TKI3 Opener.

TKI Castle top variation into Imperial Cross into 8-row-PC:



The chance for a PC with the T piece placed on bottom are astounding 84 % (despite the fact that an odd number of T's was placed vertically and despite the fact that you sometimes clear 6 lines through T-Spins). I think every solution forces a T-Spin (or the placement can be made a T-Spin like in the last one). You will only need 12 of them, most later ones are redundant.

https://i.imgur.com/gOlTSYB.png

TKI Snail variation into Imperial Cross into 8-row-PC:



This one is not as good as the last one, majorly because the chances are lower that you can prepare the Imperial Cross with the second bag. If O piece is dropped on the wall, then success rate for the T on bottom solutions are 68 %. If O piece is placed like in the last frame of the Fumen, then chances increase to 89%. Again, I think every solution forces a T-Spin. You will only need 10 of the solutions in the later case.

https://i.imgur.com/fI7PLzO.png

https://i.imgur.com/MYyDDaC.png

Anybody else knows a setup for T-Spin Double into Imperial Cross?

Posted by: pwn_by_numbers Mar 30 2018, 12:12 AM

Here's an interesting possibility, if you offset the normal Albatross and Pelican builds by moving the I piece, you can setup a TST the opposite way. The interesting part is you can setup the same shape with both offset Albatross and offset Pelican, so the same PCs should work on both.



Both are odd line clears! Note O isn't place in offset Albatross and S isn't placed in offset Pelican in the above diagrams. With sfinder, both setups give a PC rate of 85%, which lowers to 81% if you ignore builds that clear the TST shape without a T.

If you place your 2nd bag T on the left side and clear the TST with the 3rd bag, unfortunately the PC rate drops a lot - somewhere around 30%. However if you get a lucky enough 3rd bag, it's possible to get the TST instead of a mini-TSD and still have good PC chances.

This has an 85.83% clear rate with S in 2nd bag not yet placed, 78.89% with O:



I'm curious, do you think TSD, TSD, 85% PC is "good enough"? What clear rates should we be aiming for here?

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 30 2018, 06:00 AM

I also thought about about dropping the I piece on the other side in Pelican but then I saw your Wiki edit with that nice Albatross-like 10-lines PC continuation. Somehow, I never had that idea for Albatross (dropping I piece on other side).

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 30 2018, 12:12 AM) *
The interesting part is you can setup the same shape with both offset Albatross and offset Pelican, so the same PCs should work on both.

It's the same shape but one time you haven't placed O and the other time you haven't placed S. So it's not the same situation and the solutions will look differently.

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 30 2018, 12:12 AM) *
Both are odd line clears!

Those are not odd clears by my definition. Sorry, I hadn't fully explained what I meant with odd clear. For each cleared line, look how many empty cells are below that line, and sum up those numbers (assuming you cleared multiple lines at once). If the result is odd, then it's an odd clear. So for an odd clear you will need an odd number of "odd" cleared lines.

In first bag of Albatross and Pelican we have 5 empty cells below the 2nd row (first cleared line) and 5 empty cells below the 3rd row (second cleared line). 5 + 5 = 10 is an even number. Note that you will never get an odd clear with a T-Spin Double into horizontal position. Same is true for a Double with an O piece or Tetris with an I piece. In second bag of Albatross and Pelican we clear the bottom 3 lines. Those lines have no empty cells below, so it isn't an odd clear either.

The T-Spin Triple can become a T-Spin Double with an odd clear if you don't fill the 2nd row completely. This is impractical because you will clear less lines and still have the overhang (except if Imperial Cross). I also don't see how this is applicable to any of those single bag platform T-Spin Double setups.



Regarding those 80%: that's a similar situation to MKO stacking (see my first post). Note that you still have 7 pieces to place instead of 6 and each remaining piece increases the number of different path. But I find it more difficult to see each path. For example in case of that Albatross variant you will have 35 different solutions. Note the odd clear in every solution with a placed T (odd clear is illustrated by a single mino that is seperated from the rest of the piece by an odd number of lines).

https://i.imgur.com/wY9VuLE.png

QUOTE(pwn_by_numbers @ Mar 30 2018, 12:12 AM) *
What clear rates should we be aiming for here?

This depends on how many pieces are still to be placed, how many lines are still to be cleared and if you want to make a T-Spin in last bag or not.

In case of an 8th row PC with one bag still to place (and no odd clear to go):

I would say 80 % or more if you don't want to make a T-Spin in last bag. And at least 50 % if you want to make a T-Spin.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Mar 30 2018, 01:23 PM

So far I had only taken a look at T-Spin setups where the player tries to make another T-Spin in the third bag. In this case it's best to make one odd clear within the first 2 bags (via 2nd row T-Spin Single, C-Spin or Imperial Cross), and if you cleared only 3 lines during the first 2 bags, then those T placements should be placed in the same way (either both horizontal or both vertical).

However, if you just want to start with 2 T-Spins and use the 4 remaining lines to make a PC, then setups without an odd clear (usually 2 x T-Spin Doubles) also perform decently. For example, this TKI build has a 99.9 % success rate on paper:



https://i.imgur.com/xXqopCE.png

I would consider those PC chances in practice at least on par with the one at Hachispin pwn_by_numbers variation (which uses an odd clear by contrast). In the first 2 solutions, pieces are not split apart. This is only possible because the T piece was not placed. Those 2 easy-to-spot solutions will cover 50 % of all bags. Most other solutions are also pretty easy to spot. Only the first 15 solutions are needed in theory.

However, you will barely ever be able to stack the first 2 bags like this. I also tried TKI to Imperial Cross and that also barely ever worked.

So, just 2 T-Spin Doubles into 8th-row Perfect Clear can also work out, provided there are enough no-split solutions. However, I am personally only interested in solutions where you still try to T-Spin in the last bag (because PC might fail or opponent sends lines in mean time, you also lose the b2b bonus and I personally must slow down a lot to process the next piece queue).

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Apr 1 2018, 10:08 AM

Somebody going by the name Riviclia on Puyo Puyo Tetris invented a new opener. I am mentioning it in this thread because there's a PC chance after 8 cleared lines in total. Video & Fumen:





It's a very decent setup besides the fact that the chances are rather slim to stack the first bag like this. There're holes after placing the first bag but it can be fixed with a J- or L-Spin.

If you can place the first 2 bags like this, then there's a 90 % Perfect Clear probability. There's one PC solution that can result in a T-Spin Double (picture 4) and two further solutions that can result in a T-Spin Single (pictures 1 & 2). Those 3 solutions have a probability of 69 % together, although I guess it will only be a T-Spin in half of the times.

https://i.imgur.com/jv2AuYk.png

Note that the second T-Spin Double is an odd clear. Since the first 2 T pieces were placed vertically, a T-Spin Double can only occur in third bag, if you use both L and J. And a T-Spin Single into vertical position can only occur, if you keep either L or J on hold.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Apr 2 2018, 08:22 AM

This post is about exploring further options for the "Number One" setup mentioned in last post. As a reminder first bag is stacked like this:



J piece can be spun twice into the following position. This enables pretty much the same continuation as in the build from Riviclia but with a slightly different right side:



PC success rate will be 98 % in this case, with 2 options for a T-Spin Double (pictures 1 & 2) and a few further options for a T-Spin Single (among others pictures 3 & 7).

https://i.imgur.com/SzOwgUE.png

There are also ways to stack Imperial Cross setups:

If you spin L piece, then you can stack an Imperial Cross like this. PC success rate is about 80 % with the options for a T-Spin Single like shown in the last frames of this Fumen:



If you spin Z piece, then you can stack an Imperial Cross like this. PC success rate is again about 80 % with an option for a T-Spin Double as well as 4 further options for a T-Spin Single like shown in the last frames of this Fumen:


Posted by: pwn_by_numbers Apr 12 2018, 09:44 AM

Here's an opener I've been having fun with. In lieu of a better name, I'm going to call this Pwn's STPC. Basically, it's a Fin TSS -> TST -> PC. It works with almost every bag and has an exceptionally high PC-rate.

Overview:



This variation has a 90.44% chance for a PC in the 3rd bag, with an added bonus that the PC variations are pretty easy to spot.

First bag:

Choose the mirror based on whether L or J comes first, as you would in Albatross. The only bags that don't work are when both O and T come before I (and some of those can even be made to work as I'll show later on).

Normal build order:


Note that you can do the Fin TSS without the O piece, but soft-dropping to the right height is a lot harder.

If S/Z comes early you can slide the L/J in:



And if S/Z come in the wrong order you can kick the middle piece into place:



If you get an early O, but can place both L and J, you can use this variation:



Second bag:

The best variation is the one I showed in the overview, with an early S/Z, then O before L/J. Some of the other variations will force you to go for a TSD instead of TST if you still want to go for the PC.

Early Z, L before O:



If the I piece comes too late in the second bag, you should place the O on top (instead of the O before L build) so you can do this and spin it in:



(Note: I placed the L piece that way so I'd have a place to put the O piece for the PC.)

PC rates:



90.44%


82.18%


28.85% (with O first 53.89%)

Bonus variation:

If you delay the O from the first bag, you can go for a DT instead of an ST. In practice I find it rare that I get a DT and am still able to get the PC, so I often go for DD like in this example:



Note: In PPT vs Puyo, ST sends 1 more nuisance puyo than DD.

For those late I piece 2nd bags you can also try something like this. Not as good as an ST vs Tetris, but vs Puyo it is very good, especially if you can combo the Tetris into the PC. This example sends 43 puyo! (Normal STPC sends 28, and if just TSS, Tetris, PC without comboing it also sends 28.)



In practice I find it difficult to setup the Tetris so that I can combo it into the PC - I'm not sure how to use solution-finder to check the probabilities here (since I only want to count ones that can be cleared with Tetris), but if this could be consistent I think it has the potential to be one of the best openers vs Puyo. A quick TSS to get B2B followed by Tetris->PC in 3 bags is about as good as it gets.

Bailing out:

If for some reason you can't PC or you get sent lines you can do something like this: (vs puyo it might even be better to forgo the PC and go for this anyways if you want to spend one more bag's worth of time)



Or you could try grim grotto:



Edit:

Here's a video I made showing a few different attempts (with a DT version at the end):


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Apr 12 2018, 10:35 PM

Oh, so by now people even try to invent openers with Fin T-Spins. Well, it's better than those Fin / Neo / Iso T-Spin setups you find on the Tetris Wiki for sure.

Here's a Single-Triple-Double with a small PC chance after 8 lines and where the T-Spin Single is a Fin T-Spin.


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Apr 15 2018, 11:01 PM

This is a follow up of my post about http:////harddrop.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=7960&view=findpost&p=91668 or short STD Attacks. Last time I overlooked one thing: The overhang can also point away from the wall which can make a difference.



The STDs from last time are shown on top, the ones for this post on the bottom. First of all, this transformation only works if there was an O piece on the shown position. For example in Early Eye STD there wasn't, so there is no counterpart. The old way forced the usage of a J piece on a certain position, the new way forces the usage of an I piece on a certain position. The transformation also fails, if the red marked cell was filled but not the cell directly above. All in all, in the counterpart setup it's harder to complete lines 3, 4 and 5 with the second bag (T-Spin Triple) and if you do so, you will usually also fill the red cell.

The transformation can be advantageous though: in the old setup, the left side and right side were seperated completely by the overhang, so there was no interaction between them. Now, the overhang is on the wall and there can be interaction. An example where it works out is Mr. T-Spin's STD. Actually, it's the reason why I made this post. I claimed last time that Mr. T-Spin's STD cannot result in a Perfect Clear. While this is true for the reversed setup, it's not true for the real one as you can see below:



So, the overhang is stacked with an O piece here. Unfortunately, I don't have the tools available right now to calculate PC chances or make pictures showing all PC solutions. I expect the PC chance to be rather low but at least there's a chance.

Here are some ways how to place the T piece in the second row but still get a T-Spin Single. Sadly, neither of them will work properly. As a reminder, if you count the number of empty cells in the bottom line right before the T-Spin Single and right before the T-Spin Triple and if you add those 2 numbers, then the result should be odd (exactly one odd clear) or otherwise there will be no PC solution with a T-Spin in third bag. So, the setups in frames 5 and later should be useless.



Here's a way to stack the first bag which I forgot last time. It doesn't really make a difference, if you stack it in the old or new way. You cannot complete the T-Spin Triple in the second bag.



Here's an example where the old way was better: There you could complete the T-Spin Triple after 2 bags (one time with a small PC chance). While the empty gap on top is bigger in the new way, the stack still doesn't yield any new PC solutions (all new potential PC solutions would need a 4th I piece).



Here's an example where the new way is beneficial: The chance for PC is not increased but you have a further option how to stack the second bag (shown in last frame):



Actually, the first bag can always be stacked like that when starting with a J piece. Pokemino's STD and pwn's Hachispin variation have the same property. I consider this setup on par with them. Offtopic: I like that way of stacking the first L piece and J piece (it's like in pwn's Hachispin variation). Here's a good way to place a first bag; it's not involving STDs and PCs though (but an odd clear).



Well, since I am already at STDs, let's cover the weirder ones. Here's one where the left side is one column wider. You can even complete the T-Spin Triple with the second bag but sadly this doesn't result in a PC chance. Last time I had posted a STD involving a Fin T-Spin Single. There the left side was also one column wider.



And here's one where the bottom line is completed instead of the second line. The T-Spin Triple cannot be completed at the end of the second bag.



And last but not least, a comparison between standard STDs (on top) and Hachispin variations (on bottom). Hachispin variations have 2 less cells on top of the overhang. Hachispin and pwn's variation are the only good Hachispin variations (well, you could also mirror the OSZ part in Hachispin but that's not beneficial), and sadly in both of them you cannot reach a Perfect Clear and a third T-Spin at the same time.



Okay, the very last one and pretty much offtopic: A setup were you start with a T-Spin Double via the T-Spin Triple kick. It's followed up with an Imperial Cross. It's interesting that in case of a T-Spin Triple kick you can never complete the 2 bottom rows with just one bag - however it is possible to complete rows 2 and 3 as that http:////harddrop.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=7960&view=findpost&p=91696 opener proves.


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Apr 21 2018, 02:22 PM

Here are some ways how to stack the first 2 bags in C-Spin TKI signature, the setup mentioned in my very first post. I think only frames 1, 2, 3 and 7 are beneficial.



Actually, that setup is quite decent. It could be a good center 4-wide defense in Puyo Puyo Tetris. Here are some ways to achieve the Perfect Clear; there should be more (currently the PC tools are unavailable to me).



Here's one way how to stack the first bag and how it is continued in the second bag. Frames 3 and 5 show the standard way which is quite nice because the PC chance is decent and with the help of spins and softdrop it works for a whole bunch of first and second bags. However, the placement of the first S piece can be problematic if O and L piece come late in second bag. In this case it can prove better to place the first S piece differently.



Here's another way how to stack the first bag and how it is can be continued in the second bag. Here an early second Z piece can cause problems.



I have also updated my last post a little.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Sep 2 2018, 10:16 PM

A further STD attack. It was found by pwn's solution finder with the settings noted in a readme file. 72.6 % PC rate in third bag (50.9 % if TSS or TSD beforehand).



And kinda a counterpart by switching sides and mirroring certain parts. 64.7 % PC rate in third bag (only 27.7 % if TSS or TSD beforehand).



I've written a wiki article (http://harddrop.com/wiki/DoubleYou) about those setups.

-------------------------------------

How about substituting the initial T-Spin Single with a T-Spin Mini? I've seen a Japanese Puyo Puyo Tetris player actually using the following setup, although a non-b2b T-Mini doesn't send any lines. On the other hand, you get a much better PC chance after 8 lines. Note that in Tetris Battle or Tetris Online Poland, a T-Spin Mini sends only 1 line less than a T-Spin Single, so it actually works decently there (+ b2b TSTs sending more lines than usual in those 2 games).

There are 2 different ways to stack the second bag. The first one has a PC rate of astounding 96.5 % (that's by far the most I've seen for a stack where a T-Spin is already prepared), and it's still 76.7 % if you want to get a TSS or TSD beforehand. The second one has a PC rate of 85.1 % (you'll need to use a lot of different hard-to-spot paths though); 66.3 % if TSS or TSD beforehand.



And here's a similar setup which I've given the name Joystick. I haven't seen anybody using it but I am pretty sure Japanese folks must have documentated it before. Very simple setup. You only need O piece before I piece in first bag, and despite its look nothing can go wrong in second bag. With the right continuation in second bag (the one where you do the odd clear), you get a PC rate of 82.7 %, whereas it's 75.1 % if you do a TSS or TSD beforehand (that's almost as much as for the better case of the other setup).



I've written a wiki article (http://harddrop.com/wiki/Mini_Triple_Double) about those setups.

-------------------------------------

In the following months I will try to do a little research on setups with just a T-Spin Single (with odd clear) followed by a T-Spin Double (not necessarily a T-Spin in third bag). Trying to find setups with a PC rate of 100 % achieved by only using a few easy solutions (where you only have to make an easy case differentiation). I think that's possible, because of that one Double PC case where you only need 2 different solutions in third bag (the odd clear is done in the first 4 lines).



The interesting thing about this Double PC case is that only one of the first 2 T pieces is dropped vertically - you usually get better PC rates by dropping both vertically. So I assume you should try to drop the first T piece vertically in the TSS -> TSD case I am interested in (to get easier solutions).

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Oct 2 2018, 10:50 PM

This post is about a setup that is listed first in pwn's setup finder when searching for TSD -> TSD -> 8 lines PC. This will send 19 or 20 lines in Puyo Puyo Tetris which is usually enough to top out a 4 wider. I like the fact that you can always stack the second bag in the following way if O piece comes after either I piece or T piece - you may have to use softdrop though.



Another nice thing is that you get a symmetric shape which you try to fill for the Perfect Clear. In fact, this setup has a 100 % PC rate. That means for every piece order in the third bag, there's at least one way to stack it that results in an empty board. However, you can only reach those 100 % by using a lot of different solutions. There are a little over 100 solutions and you'll need about 30 of them. Note, that if you place the T piece in the third bag, then you'll need to make an "odd clear" (usually clearing a single line with an odd number of empty cells below).

Here are all solutions. The number means how many piece orders will work for that solution (first number without hold, second number with hold; there are 5040 different piece orders in total).



You can stack the first 3 pieces (or 4 with hold) in one of the following 21 ways and maintain the 100 % success rate. At least one will be applicable in around 86.9 % of the cases (with the help of hold & maybe softdrops). I've tried to arrange them by the needed shapes:



You can stack the first 4 pieces (or 5 with hold) in one of the following around 100 ways and maintain the 100 % success rate. At least one will be applicable in around 99.5 % of the cases. If a way is marked with '?', then all for-this-way-working piece orders are covered by other same-pieces ways.



The remaining 0.5 % meanest cases will have the following pattern: the first 5 pieces will consist of T,I,L,O,J whereas O piece comes at the 4th position and L or J piece comes at the 5th position. Here you'll have to pay attention to the whole sequence (S comes before Z? or vice versa). At least one of the following 4 solutions will always work with the help of hold (or at least two of the following 10 solutions respectively):


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Dec 7 2018, 07:20 AM

I went through all 4-rows high fields that have no overhangs/holes and are theoretical PCable by placing exactly 6 pieces. That's basically the scenario you get when starting with 2 T-Spin Doubles and trying to get a 8th row PC afterwards. I got ~32,500 fields in total after making the following assumptions:

Calculating the Perfect Clear rate can be done pretty quickly for those ~32,500 fields. It roughly takes about 15 minutes, if you use knewJade's solution finder in the right way. Maybe, it's even possible to calculate the same for 5-rows high fields (8th row PC in case of T-Spin Single followed by T-Spin Double), although I assume it takes at least 20 times as long. Anyway, there're 5040 possible bags you could place in those fields, and that's the amount of fields where at least the following amount of bags are PCable:The following fumen lists the top fields by PC rate (number of bags where there's at least one way of placing the pieces ending in a PC). If fields have the same PC rate, then they are secondarily sorted by the first-3-placements-guaranteeing-success rate (amount of bags where you can place 3 out of the 4 first pieces (one piece is left on hold) in a way, that a PC is always possible for the remaining 4 pieces). First number is PC rate and second number is first-3-placements rate:



And here are the first-3-placements solutions listed for the top 5 fields. Some solutions just look weird. BTW the 6th best field is the one known from pwn's setup finder when looking for top setups for TSD -> TSD -> 8th row PC (see previous post).

#1:


#2:


#3:


#4:


#5:


I am not saying that there is any TSD -> TSD setup leading to one of those 5 fields. My project is currently on hold, will be continued in 2019.

edit: I forgot that you can also determine the quality by the amount of bags that are PCable without the use of hold. Here are the fields sorted primarly by no-hold PC rate (second number in Fumen) and secondarily by with-hold PC rate (first number in Fumen). The field known from pwn's setup finder conquered the third spot in this ranking:


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Dec 7 2018, 08:46 AM

I guess I will leave it here: It's about a 14th row PC setup I once analized - no 8th row PC this time (the difference is that the PC is done with 7 pieces instead of 6). Setup was invented by Riviclia and it's a Pelican continuation. 14th row also means that it is loopable. However, for each of the first 4 bags, there's only about a 80 % chance to continue it in the shown way (and in third bag you may have to split TST into TSD + Single to achieve that chance). Setup clears a TSD, then wastes a T piece, followed by a TST and another TSD. The odd clear is done via a C-Spin (same as in BT Cannon loop). Like in the http://harddrop.com/wiki/BT_Cannon#BT_Cannon_C-Spin, there is a T-Spin prepared at the end of the fourth bag but the BT Cannon loop clears one more line on its way (2 TSTs).



Best BT Cannon loop continuation has a 99.9 % PC rate. Here, it's 100 %. Most frequent ways to achieve a PC (only 13 solutions required when knowing the whole bag):



99.40 % of all bags can be PCed with a T-Spin beforehand. And that's astounding in my opinion. There's about a 14.3 % chance that the T piece comes last in the bag, but in this case you can almost always reach the T piece with an I or O piece in hold, do a T-Spin Double and then a I-Single or O-Double afterwards.



98.06 % of all bags can be PCed without softdrop, not counting the optional T-Spin:



And there's a 98.10 % first-3-placements PC rate (see my last post - don't want to explain it again).



Here again first-3-placements where I tried to delete redundant ones and added some useful solutions on the top (some solutions are redundant but I included them because I thought they would result in less softdrops in certain cases; I did all this per hand - too much wasted time).


Posted by: Aitch Dec 15 2018, 06:14 PM

I recently read this thread and thought I might try my hand at making an 8 line C-Spin PC.

Here's the first bag.

Almost always possible with an early I.

And the second bag options with PC percentages.

You can usually get one of these. There are other options, but these have the highest PC%.
Note the second has a low probability to be set up, as the Z blocks the T from being spun in. This also prevents a full TST, so it's a TSS unless the I has been placed.
I wonder if there's a tool for determining the percent chance of setting these up...

And going in more detail in each of the options. (In order of appearance in the above fumen.)






Note you may not get the TSD, as you you need to fill in the block beside with a J.


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Dec 16 2018, 10:16 PM

Thank you for the reply. I tried to list some possible C-Spin setups with vertical T placements in this http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=91741&#entry91741 in case you missed it. I gave up on C-Spins after some practice. Didn't work out too well for me. From the ones you listed, the one with the I + L overhang looks the most interesting to me. BTW there's also a 4-lines PC opener called http://harddrop.com/wiki/Grace_System that stacks the IOSZ pieces the same way in the first bag.

I have a tool for determining the percent chance of setting one bag up but it is too messed up to share. These should be the chances, if you assume softdrop and demand a T-Spin Triple. The 3 listed first bag setups have a chance of 68.13 % together. The 7 (or rather 6) listed second bag setups have a 74.40 % together (i.e. at least one of them is stackable for 74% of all 5040 bags; and whenever the one with the horizontal I piece is stackable, then another one is also stackable).


Posted by: Aitch Dec 16 2018, 11:51 PM

I guess my post was kinda pointless, then, other than the I + L overhang. ohnoes.png

You're right, I did miss that fumen. My bad.

Unfortunately, I'm a lot less smart than you, so I'll keep trying different setups bags to see if I can get high probability bags. If I find anything that works almost every time, I'll post it.

Forcing the TST limits the second bag, I believe. The probability of getting the second bag is quite a bit higher if you allow a TSS or a TSD. But you may not be able to offset garbage without the TST. I don't know how your program works, either, so maybe enforcing the TST was enforced smile.gif .

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Dec 17 2018, 07:49 AM

Your post wasn't useless. For example, you listed the percentages (and sorted the 2nd bag setups by them) and the PC solutions. I didn't even know that you can make a Fumen (listing all solutions and their stacking percentages) with knewJade's solution finder - must be a newer version. And sorry I should have updated the first post (but editing posts messes up the layout for posts with images, so I didn't bother).

If you just demand 1 line clear with the T piece, then you get the following working rates for the 2nd bag setups. All setups together should work for 82.66 % (4166/5040) of all bags. I am not 100 % sure that my tool is working correctly (I haven't even implemented T-Spin Triple detection, also note that I inserted a T piece placement in the corresponding location to calculate the chances and that the tool just works for 1 bag and not beyond).



-------

very late edit after the forums were closed down:

Aitch had http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8166&st=0&p=92467&#entry92467 a C-Spin with the first T piece placed vertically in another thread:

QUOTE

Sends between 24 and 16 garbage rows, depending on combos, and TSS or TSD or neither. Here's a write up for the opener and how to PC.
[attachmentid=1208]

I saw a https://twitter.com/mipi_teto_puyo/status/1190346534350536705/photo/1 with a similar build. Just the LOI placements are different in the first bag. The Perfect Clear rate is 99 % (or 61.3 % with a T-Spin beforehand).



And here are some placements that guarantee the PC no matter in which order the other pieces show up. The chance to make those placements is 21.9 % for 2 pieces, 56.3 % for 3 pieces and 92.5 % for 4 pieces.



-------

And here's a DT Cannon with the first T piece placed vertically. DT Cannons don't have a parity-changing line clear, so the Perfect Clear rate is not that high. It's still 51.9 % in the best case - much better than what you can achieve with a horizontal T placement in the first bag (horizontal = leave L or J on hold if PC + T-Spin, vertical = leave S, Z, O or I on hold if PC + T-Spin). While this DT Cannon requires an early I piece, the corresponding pseudo DT Cannons are usable for most bags (pseudo = S takes the place of O).



Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 16 2019, 09:19 PM

I wrote some code that basically creates all setups that start with 2 T-Spin Doubles and lead into a decent PC chance immediately afterwards (6 & 8 lines PCs).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/429007833992790036/535516992808026123/2_x_TSD_into_PC_-_all_setups.zip

According to the data, what "ajanba TKI" seems to be among the best (at least that's how I called it on the wiki http://harddrop.com/wiki/Opener#Unnamed_Technique page). Not sure why people barely use it.

Here's roughly how the output looks like (I tried to replicate the output of the setup-finder):

TSD -> TSD -> 8-th row PC

38 setups found

Setup 0

IPB Image IPB Image IPB Image

Best continuation: 100.00% PC success rate - http://tinyurl.com/y73s2cdw with at least 60.95% PC success rate


(I had to shorten the Fumen/URL)

That finishes my TSD -> TSD -> PC study. In a few months from now, I will have a look at TSS -> TSD -> PC, provided the algorithm is fast enough to also handle that case.

Posted by: Cosine Jan 18 2019, 09:27 AM

I liked that a lot. I really appreciate your work.

However, I can see some possible ones are missing because of the condition "no softdrop is used, no holes are made" and fumen below is an example.



Not a really big problem but just saying that some things are missing due to some conditions.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 18 2019, 10:00 PM

Thanks. The setup with a hole after 2 bags is interesting because you can place O, S & Z pieces in any order, thus it will work for a high amount of bags (you just need a rather late J or T). 99 % may sound like a big number but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PC is easy to achieve. I don't think setups with holes can be on par with the best setups without holes. Maybe, I will try to implement that (holes after 2 bags) in 2 months. This would be rather easy to implement although I don't know if the program would finish then in a reasonable amount of time. Implementing softdrop is harder but doesn't extent the runtime too much (after examing all harddrops I could check for every hole, if there's a placement that can be inserted there - I have programmed something similar before)

-----------------------

Here's a more complete download of the setup listing. This time it also mentions the chances to get a PC without hold and the chances to place the first 3 or 4 pieces in a way that guarantees a setup. This way I hope to illustrate better the quality of a playfield (among the 100 % PC rate ones).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/429007833992790036/535933924627709973/2_x_TSD_into_8_lines_PC_-_more_stats.zip

The one http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92242&#entry92242 known from pwn's setup finder is among the best in every category (I think #2 at worst). The following playfield has the best chances (88 %) to guarantee a PC after placing 3 pieces. It can be reached after ajanba tki and also sometimes after a normal TKI setup:


Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 18 2019, 10:15 PM

Thanks. This setup with a hole after 2 bags is interesting because you can place O, S & Z pieces in any order, thus it will work for a high amount of bags (you just need a rather late J or T). 99 % may sound like a big number but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PC is easy to achieve. I don't think setups with holes can be on par with the best setups without holes. Maybe, I will try to implement that (holes after 2 bags) in 2 months. This would be rather easy to implement although I don't know if the program would finish in a reasonable amount of time then. Implementing softdrop is harder but doesn't extend the runtime too much (after examing all harddrops I could check for every hole, if there's a placement that can be inserted there - I have programmed something similar before)

-----------------------

Here's a more complete download of the setup list. This time it also mentions the chances to get a PC without hold and the chances to place the first 3 or 4 pieces in a way that guarantees a PC. I hope this is a more sophisticated way to illustrate the quality of a playfield (i.e. rank the 100 % PC playfields).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/429007833992790036/535933924627709973/2_x_TSD_into_8_lines_PC_-_more_stats.zip

The one http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92242&#entry92242 known from pwn's setup finder is among the best in every category (I think #2 at worst). The following playfield has the best chances (88 %) to guarantee a PC after placing 3 pieces. It can be reached after ajanba tki and also sometimes after a normal TKI setup:




Posted by: Aitch Jan 19 2019, 12:52 AM

Cool stuff. Perhaps you could sort them by the least amount of solutions they have? A setup with a 90% PC and 10 solutions is arguably better than a 100% PC and 100 solutions. I know the more redundant solutions they have the better chance you can PC impromptu, but knowing what solution you should go for from the start is faster.

I've been thinking about TSD PCs lately too, but instead of 2 TSD 8/6 row PCs, I've been doing TSD 6 row PCs. 6 row PCs are usually hard, as you have to change your solution based on the first 2 pieces of the next bag, but not requiring a TSD in that bag allows you to PC somewhat consistently.

Here's the setup.


I can PC with around 80% consistency with this method. Also I should note Albatross has a theoretical 100% PC rate. ...But its not actually 100%. 6 bags don't work.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 19 2019, 08:57 AM

QUOTE(Aitch @ Jan 19 2019, 12:52 AM) *
I've been thinking about TSD PCs lately too, but instead of 2 TSD 8/6 row PCs, I've been doing TSD 6 row PCs. 6 row PCs are usually hard, as you have to change your solution based on the first 2 pieces of the next bag, but not requiring a TSD in that bag allows you to PC somewhat consistently.

Here's the setup [Albatross continuation].

8 lines or gtfo

I like the frames 3 to 7 in your fumen. When you place L,J,O and I in the specific way, there's a way to place S, Z and T to leave a hole in the shape of every piece but T (O shape also works if you place T afterwards). PC chance is 96.8 % for that case.

I personally don't like TSD -> 6 lines PC because I limit my amount of previews so I don't know which piece will come first/second in third bag. However, TSD -> 6 lines is powerful (probably more powerful than 2 x TSD -> 8 lines). There's a Japanese player called Gannbattaa who popularized TKI castle top -> 6 lines (see Galactoid's ultra advanced https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/turtlerock/uploads/default/original/3X/3/2/325912b366ad3680bda75c63345127c6e17b585a.png or this http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7843&st=0&p=90607&#entry90607) by noonuus. 6 lines has the advantage over 8 lines that you don't have to place a third T piece (odd number of T pieces is bad for PC because you need that odd clear). I think what makes TSD -> 6 lines PC so powerful is that you can counter most first attacks with the TSD (the TSD cancels every one bag openener as well as the standard PC / grace system PC) and that you can make the PC before garbage is entered in your playfield: You need 15 pieces for the PC and the opponent needs 13 or 14 pieces to send off the second bag's attack. Maybe, its best counter is something like the DT cannon (or maybe C-Spin) where the first attack comes so late that it can't be countered by the PC player's TSD, but still early enough (11 pieces or so) to insert garbage before the PC is competed.

QUOTE(Aitch @ Jan 19 2019, 12:52 AM) *
Perhaps you could sort them by the least amount of solutions they have? A setup with a 90% PC and 10 solutions is arguably better than a 100% PC and 100 solutions.

I won't change sorting. I sorted all the first bags primarily by the best PC chance you can reach by placing the second bag, and secondarily by the amount of playfields you could reach after 2 bags that pass a certain threshold. I introduced the "first 3 placed pieces" PC chances as a mean to identify how easy it is to spot a PC: at the end of the second bag, you look at the first 4 pieces of the third bag, and try to select 3 of them that guarantee a PC no matter how the sequence is continued. I can do that in practise. "First 4 placed pieces" is already to difficult for me.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 21 2019, 07:12 PM

A post about the 4 setups that seem to be best according to the 2 x TSD -> PC output. The setups have in common that they need an early I piece and a relatively early O piece. The Fumen lists some percentages which are the chances to place the pieces in the shown way (they are NOT the PC chances). For the first bag, the number in brackets means the chances, if you consider stacking the mirrored setup as well. If there's a number in brackets for the second bag, it means that you can theoretically make a line clear with an I piece before the T-Spin Double, in that case you lose the back-to-back bonus but chances to build this stack are increased. When I speak about "basic", I exclude solutions where you place a piece after the T piece (e.g. the I piece I was speaking about earlier). I include them for "extra" though.

setup from pwn's finder / black tea cannon

Note that the setups in frames 9 to 11 don't have a 100 % PC rate (but still > 99 %).


The following percentages refer to the Fumen above:
all 6 lines basic: 33.33 %
all 6 lines extra: 43.41 % (57.14 %)
all 8 lines basic: 77.66 %
all 8 lines extra: 80.56 %
all basic ones (6+8): 81.43 %
all extra ones (6+8): 83.29 % (84.01 %)

ajanba TKI


all 6 lines basic: 60.71 %
all 6 lines extra: 62.62 % (65.28 %)
all 8 lines basic: 71.03 %
all 8 lines extra: 71.03 %
all basic ones (6+8): 79.21 %
all extra ones (6+8): 79.40 % (79.88 %)

TKI 3 fonzie variation


all 6 lines basic: 60.16 %
all 6 lines extra: 62.98 % (64.48 %)
all 8 lines basic: 45.16 %
all 8 lines extra: 47.58 % (49.48 %)
all basic ones (6+8): 68.53 %
all extra ones (6+8): 69.33 % (70.52 %)

TKI 3 castle top variation


all 6 lines basic: 43.33 %
all 6 lines extra: 47.54 %
all 8 lines basic: 39.56 %
all 8 lines extra: 39.56 %
all basic ones (6+8): 63.25 %
all extra ones (6+8): 66.63 %

Note that TKI 3 castle top has the highest chances of working in the first bag. However, if it works, it also works at least one of the other 3 setups.

I think I will make a post tomorrow about a few other noteworthy 2 x TSD -> PC setups but it won't be as detailed.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey Jan 22 2019, 01:46 PM

Some other 2 x TSD -> PC setups. Again, percentages are the chances to stack the bags in the shown ways and NOT the PC rates. For 8 lines PC rates, read the texts. For 6 lines PC rates, read the remark at the end of this post.

Air TSD #1

That's the best performing setup where the bottom row is left empty in the first bag (platform TSD). For the first bag, you need an early O & J and a rather early I piece. Thus, sadly it's not really useful, as you can usually stack better performing setups (e.g. TKI 3) in this case. There's a 6 lines solution and the first shown 8 lines solution has 100 % PC rate, and the last 2 solutions about 98.5 %.



Air TSD #2

Another setup where the bottom row is left empty in the first bag. This only has a rather unlikely 6 lines solution, and the 8 solutions have rather low PC rates: it's about 98.5 % for the first one; and for the last 2 ones 97.7 % and 97.2 % respectively. On the plus side: One of the 3 shown 8 lines solutions is stackable in 86.71 % of the cases. Plus, you just need an early Z & O and a rather early I piece. Thus, it might be useful for bad bags. Note that Albatross works for similar bags and there's a good way to get 1 x TSD -> 6 lines PC with Albatross as Aitch has shown. Other setups for O & Z starts: Mr. T-Spin's STD, Hachispin, Joystick.



Vertical I piece

This is the only way to get a non-platform TSD with the first bag (ok, you can place the I piece on the other side but that's usually worse regarding PCs). This setup offers a 6 lines solution, and another one if you place an O piece afterwards. However, the the PC rates for the best 8 lines solutions are rather underwhelming: 96.4 % to 93.3 %. The setup is rather unique in its requirements: You need early L & J pieces and a rather early S piece. Other setups for L & J starts: DT Cannon, MKO Stacking.



For the sake of completeness the one with the I piece on the other side. That's basically the setup you get, if you place the O piece on the other snake piece (just the mirrored version of that). Here, it's impossible to get a 6 lines PC after 2 T-Spins. If you place T piece last in the second bag, you get similar PC rates as the ones mentioned above: 95.7 % to 93.7 % (but the stacking chances are higher). However, the situation is better, if you can place another piece after T: In this case you can get 99.6 % to 97.0 %



Very high 6 lines stacking chances

Those 2 setups really shine in stacking 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC. It's a 77.78 % chance that you can use one of those 2 solutions (one of them places an O piece above T). You may have to use softdrop a lot though. The 8 lines setups aren't that nice though: The best 2 PC rates you get are 95.8 and 91.6 % respectively (in case of the 95.8 % you have a nice split though, so easier to spot than usual). That chance can be increased a little if placing one piece after T: It's 97.1 % and 94.2 % in that case.



High 8 lines stacking chances

This setup doesn't offer any way to achieve a 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC. However, chances for 8 lines PC are decent. The first 2 solutions have 100 % PC rate, the others around 99.0 %. Around 85 % of all second bags can be stacked in at least one of the shown 5 ways.



Like TKI 3 Flat Top but not

For the lolz. The O piece is shifted towards the left side. This makes a 6 lines PC possible with T placed last. You have a 55.24 % chance to stack at least one of the 6 lines solutions. However, this setup is horrible otherwise. Barely any good spots for setting up a T slot. The best solution with T coming last has only 80 % PC rate (it's 94.3 % if you can place a L after T, that's the only 8 lines solution I've included in this Fumen).



----------------

A remark to round off all those 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC setups: There's also a chance to substitute the T-Spin Double with a T-Spin Single. This can increase the PC chance a lot, assuming you don't know which pieces you get at the start of the third bag. Let's say you have to play with 1 preview for whatever reason. In that case after stacking one of those "6 lines solutions" the chance for a Perfect Clear is somewhere between 28.57 % and 52.38 %. The best case is when there's a hole in the shape of an O piece above the T slot. In that case, you can also make a T-Spin Single and have a PC with a J or L piece (depending on overhang) instead of an O piece (this means you get the PC if either O or J is among the first 2 pieces of the third bag). Worst case scenario is that the T-Spin doesn't clear the bottom line. In that case, a T-Spin Single will not help at all. In the following Fumen, the percentages represent the chances to get a Perfect Clear when not looking ahead.


Posted by: JimothyJImothy Apr 28 2019, 11:37 PM

I saw the 3 wide 8 tall perfect clear build that okey posted which inspired me to look into it more and find an easy way to get a perfect clear without having to memorize hundreds of solutions. I've made http://tinyurl.com/y6oscfbh to show the various ways to build it and the 3 main ways to get a perfect clear. Hope this helps.

Posted by: Okey_Dokey May 22 2019, 01:55 PM

QUOTE(JimothyJImothy @ Apr 28 2019, 11:37 PM) *

I saw the 3 wide 8 tall perfect clear build that okey posted which inspired me to look into it more and find an easy way to get a perfect clear without having to memorize hundreds of solutions. I've made http://tinyurl.com/y6oscfbh to show the various ways to build it and the 3 main ways to get a perfect clear. Hope this helps.

Sorry for late reply, I was on HD hiatus (and I will still be for the next month). I tried out your setup and it indeed works in one of the listed ways most of the time (> 90 % I would say). So, 3-wide PC is better than 4-wide PC. However, I wouldn't know any situation where it's useful to use a combo PC. Getting a combo before the PC is not guaranteed, and even with a 6-combo it will not send that many lines than with T-Spins beforehand.

-------------------

I taught my program to find 2 x TSD setups with holes and it came up with a case I hadn't thought of previously: How about making the odd clear during the second bag? There are only very few setups where it's possible but it turns out very well one time.

May I present you: Okey's Castle Top continuation. I haven't seen this TKI continuation before and if it's still unknown to the Japanese community, then I want to claim its name. In my opinion it's the best way to reach a 8th row PC after using T-Spins. The secret is that you still complete the 6th row in the second bag - with an odd number of empty cells in the 5th row. The holes that are made are just temporarily - they will disappear after that line clear.



Here are some ways to reach a PC (PC solutions). Some of them may result in a T-Spin Single beforehand (18% of all third bags can result in a TSS -> PC). Only the first 7 solutions are needed to reach a PC with the help of hold and softdrop. The numbers mean the amount of bags where each solution is applicable (first number without hold, second number with hold, there are 5040 different bags).



Here are all ways to place 2 pieces that will guarantee a PC for all further piece orders. 81.9 % of all bags start with one of the listed piece combinations (if you use hold).



Here are some ways to place 3 pieces that will guarantee a PC for all further piece orders. The numbers in the fumen mean the amount of bags where they work (with hold) where the 2-piece combinations didn't work. A '?' means that all those bags can be covered by other 3-piece combinations that can be used more frequently. So, the purpose of the '?' solutions is just to reduce the amount of used softdrops or to leave another piece on hold at the end of the third bag. 96.9 % of all bags start with one of the listed 2-piece and 3-piece combinations.



Here are some ways to place 4 pieces that will guarantee a PC for all further piece orders. 100 % of all bags start with one of the listed 2-piece, 3-piece and 4-piece combinations.



Here are some other setups that clear the 6th row in the second bag - or prepare that clear for the most part. None of those setups are really useful in my opinion (well, except for the TKI Fonzie ones maybe - but TKI Castle Top can be stacked instead of TKI Fonzie every time). The four listed percentages stand for the following PC rates (in this particular order): standard, no-hold, first-3, first-2.



-------------------

Some time ago, I made a HTML output for 2 x TSD -> PC setups. Here's an updated one, including setups with holes. See the readme file.

Attached File  PC_after_2_TSDs.zip ( 220.54k ) Number of downloads: 42


edit: changed the attachment a bit (6 lines, min-needs).

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