tldr: I am looking for a C-Spin / http://harddrop.com/wiki/Triple_Double_Attack_Setups setup where the first T piece is placed vertically. Something like this:
edit: For some further C-Spin setups with vertical T placements (and sometimes their corresponing PC probabilities), see http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=91741&#entry91741 post and http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92437&#entry92437 post.
I am interested in the concept of getting a Perfect Clear after exactly 8 cleared lines in a T-Spin setup. The nice thing about 8 lines is that you have placed a whole number of bags: 8 lines are 20 placed pieces; with 1 piece on hold it's exactly 3 bags that you use to arrange the placements. Despite of this fact, barely any build exists for 8 lines. TKI 3 opener usually goes for http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7843&st=0&p=90637&#entry90637, DT Cannon goes for http://tinyurl.com/ycedztk5, 26_nameless BT Cannon even goes for http://harddrop.com/wiki/BT_Cannon#BT_Cannon_C-Spin.
In order to achieve a PC the following 2 points must be fulfilled:
iljain showed a perfect clear after 10 cleared lines achieved on the standard SZ-start C-Spin. I am currently trying to write a T-Spin Opener page and would be interested in including the SZ-start C-Spin. However, I don't know much about it. But I think a perfect flat 6-rows high stack like in iljain's video would be nice. So, does anybody know how to achieve the following stack with either O or S piece not placed yet? (because this allows to go for T-Spin Triple or Imperial Cross.) The way in iljain's video doesn't count though because I want to think in bags: All pieces of first bag must be placed before the pieces of the second bag (in iljain's video the first O piece was hold until pretty late in the 2nd bag).
This post is about 8-rows high PCs with T-Spin Single into 2 T-Spin Doubles (TSS -> TSD -> TSD -> PC). It should send at least 2 + 5 + 5 + 10 = 22 lines which could be enough to take out a center 4-wide player in games without garbage blocking (combo doesn't delay incoming garbage). That said, it's not useful against center 4-wide in games with garbage blocking because the 7 lines from TSS -> TSD are not enough to keep the combo short enough. Again we try to fulfill the 2 points:
This post will be about achieving an 8th-row Perfect Clear after a STD = Single Triple Double attack. The STD will become a Singe Triple Single attack in half of the cases though. Basically, the stack will look like this:
The second row is cleared first and after it's gone you will have a reversed C-Spin / Triple Double Attack stack. Mr. T-Spin's STD, Pokemino's STD and Early I STD are the prime examples of STD attacks. In the fumen above the left half and right half of http://harddrop.com/wiki/Mr._T-Spin%27s_STD are swapped.
Again, to achieve the goal of a Perfect Clear,we must make exactly 1 odd line clear. This is done by clearing the T-Spin Triple with an odd number of empty cells below (usually 1 hole). Pokemino's STD will also make the T-Spin Single with an odd number of empty cells below. So, in Pokemino's STD the player is forced to make an odd line clear in the last 2 or 3 lines. However, this is not necessary in almost every other STD setup.
In my last posts I spoke about how an even number of vertical T placements can help to increase the probability of a Perfect Clear. Sadly, this isn't the case for STDs. Major reason is that the left side doesn't interact with the right side at all. The 8 columns on the left are basically a rectangle with a missing I piece. No piece intersects that border, so the result that #L + #J #vertT must be an even number also applies to this area. In the first and second bag, 3 out of the 4 L and J pieces will go there as well as the first T piece. If this T piece is placed horizontally, then in the third bag either L or J piece will be placed there. If the first T piece is placed vertically, then in the third bag both L and J will be placed in that area. In this case a T-Spin Single is not possible (because you have no L left for the right side). Not only does a vertical T placement prevent T-Spin Singles, it doesn't really increase the chance to get a T-Spin Double. More Ls and Js only really increase chances when they can interact with an O piece but the O piece is needed on the right side.
In my first post I included a Fumen of Early I STD. It uses a horizontal T placement in first bag which means that in third bag either L or J are placement on the left 8 columns and both T-Spin Double (O piece on the right) and T-Spin Single (J piece on the right) are possible.
Actually, I had underestimated Early I STD. I came up with it some years ago and thought it would be useless (so that generic name, maybe it even deserves a real name). But by now, I could imagine it's quite useful against 4-wide players in games without garbage blocking. If you get a T-Spin Double in third bag followed by a Perfect Clear, then it sends at least 2 + 7 + 5 +10 = 24 lines within 3 bags which should be enough to kill the 4-wide player. With a T-Spin Single into Perfect Clear, it sends 1 or 2 lines less. Note that no other setup should be able to send more lines in just 3 bags. On the downside, the PC chance is not that high. The initial T-Spin Single into T-Spin Triple is enough to keep the 4-wide short, if you can get them within 2 bags. And that's the real disadvantage in comparison to Mr. T-Spin's STD which guarantees to get the Single Triple in the first 2 bags no matter how the second bag looks like. Plus Mr. T-Spin's STD (and Pokemino's STD) have less dependencies in the first bag.
The 3 mentioned STDs are pretty much the only STDs you can do with the first T piece placed in the bottom row and only Early I STD can really result in a Perfect Clear (unless you change how the overhang is stacked in Mr. T-Spin's STD which takes away its advantage in second bag namely that it is always guaranteed to work because of the multiple ways how the OSZ block can be stacked). However, there are some further STDs where the T piece is placed one row higher. In this case the player can also decide between a horizontal and vertical T placement.
So how do those setups perform in comparison to Early I TSD regarding Perfect Clear chances? Sadly not better as much as I can tell. I only tried those placements where it's possible to get the T-Spin Triple within the second bag and there're barely any ways to make that work. An example where it works:
And for the LOLz, 2 examples for leaving some cells empty in the bottom row (like in Hachispin). Leaving cells empty will make it significantly easier to place pieces in a way that the T-Spin Triple is ready within second bag but it will also make the last T-Spin Double / Single more troublesome. This time the first T piece is placed vertically but that doesn't help.
Summarized: Single Triple Double attacks will never have a good chance for a 8th-row Perfect Clear because the overhang is basically one row too high and thus prevents an exchange of the left stack with the right stack. That exchange is still possible in classic C-Spin though (1 row shorter) where the PC chance can be decent, if the first T piece is placed vertically (in case of STD the orientation of the first T piece doesn't really matter). Thus, getting 6 T-Spin lines can be quite a hurdle for achieving a 8th row Perfect Clear. However, it's not that problematic for 5 T-Spin lines as seen in C-Spin (with first T placed vertically) and Single-Double-Double (that Imperial Cross setup performed well, STSD is also worth researching).
Interesting stuff. I have been thinking about 8 high PC openers as well, my thought process being that if you can attack with the first 2 bags, you could theoretically have a systematic way to place every mino in the 3rd bag for the PC.
Here's an interesting possibility, if you offset the normal Albatross and Pelican builds by moving the I piece, you can setup a TST the opposite way. The interesting part is you can setup the same shape with both offset Albatross and offset Pelican, so the same PCs should work on both.
Both are odd line clears! Note O isn't place in offset Albatross and S isn't placed in offset Pelican in the above diagrams. With sfinder, both setups give a PC rate of 85%, which lowers to 81% if you ignore builds that clear the TST shape without a T.
If you place your 2nd bag T on the left side and clear the TST with the 3rd bag, unfortunately the PC rate drops a lot - somewhere around 30%. However if you get a lucky enough 3rd bag, it's possible to get the TST instead of a mini-TSD and still have good PC chances.
This has an 85.83% clear rate with S in 2nd bag not yet placed, 78.89% with O:
I'm curious, do you think TSD, TSD, 85% PC is "good enough"? What clear rates should we be aiming for here?
I also thought about about dropping the I piece on the other side in Pelican but then I saw your Wiki edit with that nice Albatross-like 10-lines PC continuation. Somehow, I never had that idea for Albatross (dropping I piece on other side).
So far I had only taken a look at T-Spin setups where the player tries to make another T-Spin in the third bag. In this case it's best to make one odd clear within the first 2 bags (via 2nd row T-Spin Single, C-Spin or Imperial Cross), and if you cleared only 3 lines during the first 2 bags, then those T placements should be placed in the same way (either both horizontal or both vertical).
However, if you just want to start with 2 T-Spins and use the 4 remaining lines to make a PC, then setups without an odd clear (usually 2 x T-Spin Doubles) also perform decently. For example, this TKI build has a 99.9 % success rate on paper:
I would consider those PC chances in practice at least on par with the one at Hachispin pwn_by_numbers variation (which uses an odd clear by contrast). In the first 2 solutions, pieces are not split apart. This is only possible because the T piece was not placed. Those 2 easy-to-spot solutions will cover 50 % of all bags. Most other solutions are also pretty easy to spot. Only the first 15 solutions are needed in theory.
However, you will barely ever be able to stack the first 2 bags like this. I also tried TKI to Imperial Cross and that also barely ever worked.
So, just 2 T-Spin Doubles into 8th-row Perfect Clear can also work out, provided there are enough no-split solutions. However, I am personally only interested in solutions where you still try to T-Spin in the last bag (because PC might fail or opponent sends lines in mean time, you also lose the b2b bonus and I personally must slow down a lot to process the next piece queue).
Somebody going by the name Riviclia on Puyo Puyo Tetris invented a new opener. I am mentioning it in this thread because there's a PC chance after 8 cleared lines in total. Video & Fumen:
It's a very decent setup besides the fact that the chances are rather slim to stack the first bag like this. There're holes after placing the first bag but it can be fixed with a J- or L-Spin.
If you can place the first 2 bags like this, then there's a 90 % Perfect Clear probability. There's one PC solution that can result in a T-Spin Double (picture 4) and two further solutions that can result in a T-Spin Single (pictures 1 & 2). Those 3 solutions have a probability of 69 % together, although I guess it will only be a T-Spin in half of the times.
Note that the second T-Spin Double is an odd clear. Since the first 2 T pieces were placed vertically, a T-Spin Double can only occur in third bag, if you use both L and J. And a T-Spin Single into vertical position can only occur, if you keep either L or J on hold.
This post is about exploring further options for the "Number One" setup mentioned in last post. As a reminder first bag is stacked like this:
J piece can be spun twice into the following position. This enables pretty much the same continuation as in the build from Riviclia but with a slightly different right side:
PC success rate will be 98 % in this case, with 2 options for a T-Spin Double (pictures 1 & 2) and a few further options for a T-Spin Single (among others pictures 3 & 7).
There are also ways to stack Imperial Cross setups:
If you spin L piece, then you can stack an Imperial Cross like this. PC success rate is about 80 % with the options for a T-Spin Single like shown in the last frames of this Fumen:
If you spin Z piece, then you can stack an Imperial Cross like this. PC success rate is again about 80 % with an option for a T-Spin Double as well as 4 further options for a T-Spin Single like shown in the last frames of this Fumen:
Here's an opener I've been having fun with. In lieu of a better name, I'm going to call this Pwn's STPC. Basically, it's a Fin TSS -> TST -> PC. It works with almost every bag and has an exceptionally high PC-rate.
This variation has a 90.44% chance for a PC in the 3rd bag, with an added bonus that the PC variations are pretty easy to spot.
Choose the mirror based on whether L or J comes first, as you would in Albatross. The only bags that don't work are when both O and T come before I (and some of those can even be made to work as I'll show later on).
Normal build order:
Note that you can do the Fin TSS without the O piece, but soft-dropping to the right height is a lot harder.
If S/Z comes early you can slide the L/J in:
And if S/Z come in the wrong order you can kick the middle piece into place:
If you get an early O, but can place both L and J, you can use this variation:
The best variation is the one I showed in the overview, with an early S/Z, then O before L/J. Some of the other variations will force you to go for a TSD instead of TST if you still want to go for the PC.
Early Z, L before O:
If the I piece comes too late in the second bag, you should place the O on top (instead of the O before L build) so you can do this and spin it in:
(Note: I placed the L piece that way so I'd have a place to put the O piece for the PC.)
28.85% (with O first 53.89%)
If you delay the O from the first bag, you can go for a DT instead of an ST. In practice I find it rare that I get a DT and am still able to get the PC, so I often go for DD like in this example:
Note: In PPT vs Puyo, ST sends 1 more nuisance puyo than DD.
For those late I piece 2nd bags you can also try something like this. Not as good as an ST vs Tetris, but vs Puyo it is very good, especially if you can combo the Tetris into the PC. This example sends 43 puyo! (Normal STPC sends 28, and if just TSS, Tetris, PC without comboing it also sends 28.)
In practice I find it difficult to setup the Tetris so that I can combo it into the PC - I'm not sure how to use solution-finder to check the probabilities here (since I only want to count ones that can be cleared with Tetris), but if this could be consistent I think it has the potential to be one of the best openers vs Puyo. A quick TSS to get B2B followed by Tetris->PC in 3 bags is about as good as it gets.
If for some reason you can't PC or you get sent lines you can do something like this: (vs puyo it might even be better to forgo the PC and go for this anyways if you want to spend one more bag's worth of time)
Or you could try grim grotto:
Here's a video I made showing a few different attempts (with a DT version at the end):
Oh, so by now people even try to invent openers with Fin T-Spins. Well, it's better than those Fin / Neo / Iso T-Spin setups you find on the Tetris Wiki for sure.
Here's a Single-Triple-Double with a small PC chance after 8 lines and where the T-Spin Single is a Fin T-Spin.
This is a follow up of my post about http:////harddrop.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=7960&view=findpost&p=91668 or short STD Attacks. Last time I overlooked one thing: The overhang can also point away from the wall which can make a difference.
The STDs from last time are shown on top, the ones for this post on the bottom. First of all, this transformation only works if there was an O piece on the shown position. For example in Early Eye STD there wasn't, so there is no counterpart. The old way forced the usage of a J piece on a certain position, the new way forces the usage of an I piece on a certain position. The transformation also fails, if the red marked cell was filled but not the cell directly above. All in all, in the counterpart setup it's harder to complete lines 3, 4 and 5 with the second bag (T-Spin Triple) and if you do so, you will usually also fill the red cell.
The transformation can be advantageous though: in the old setup, the left side and right side were seperated completely by the overhang, so there was no interaction between them. Now, the overhang is on the wall and there can be interaction. An example where it works out is Mr. T-Spin's STD. Actually, it's the reason why I made this post. I claimed last time that Mr. T-Spin's STD cannot result in a Perfect Clear. While this is true for the reversed setup, it's not true for the real one as you can see below:
So, the overhang is stacked with an O piece here. Unfortunately, I don't have the tools available right now to calculate PC chances or make pictures showing all PC solutions. I expect the PC chance to be rather low but at least there's a chance.
Here are some ways how to place the T piece in the second row but still get a T-Spin Single. Sadly, neither of them will work properly. As a reminder, if you count the number of empty cells in the bottom line right before the T-Spin Single and right before the T-Spin Triple and if you add those 2 numbers, then the result should be odd (exactly one odd clear) or otherwise there will be no PC solution with a T-Spin in third bag. So, the setups in frames 5 and later should be useless.
Here's a way to stack the first bag which I forgot last time. It doesn't really make a difference, if you stack it in the old or new way. You cannot complete the T-Spin Triple in the second bag.
Here's an example where the old way was better: There you could complete the T-Spin Triple after 2 bags (one time with a small PC chance). While the empty gap on top is bigger in the new way, the stack still doesn't yield any new PC solutions (all new potential PC solutions would need a 4th I piece).
Here's an example where the new way is beneficial: The chance for PC is not increased but you have a further option how to stack the second bag (shown in last frame):
Actually, the first bag can always be stacked like that when starting with a J piece. Pokemino's STD and pwn's Hachispin variation have the same property. I consider this setup on par with them. Offtopic: I like that way of stacking the first L piece and J piece (it's like in pwn's Hachispin variation). Here's a good way to place a first bag; it's not involving STDs and PCs though (but an odd clear).
Well, since I am already at STDs, let's cover the weirder ones. Here's one where the left side is one column wider. You can even complete the T-Spin Triple with the second bag but sadly this doesn't result in a PC chance. Last time I had posted a STD involving a Fin T-Spin Single. There the left side was also one column wider.
And here's one where the bottom line is completed instead of the second line. The T-Spin Triple cannot be completed at the end of the second bag.
And last but not least, a comparison between standard STDs (on top) and Hachispin variations (on bottom). Hachispin variations have 2 less cells on top of the overhang. Hachispin and pwn's variation are the only good Hachispin variations (well, you could also mirror the OSZ part in Hachispin but that's not beneficial), and sadly in both of them you cannot reach a Perfect Clear and a third T-Spin at the same time.
Okay, the very last one and pretty much offtopic: A setup were you start with a T-Spin Double via the T-Spin Triple kick. It's followed up with an Imperial Cross. It's interesting that in case of a T-Spin Triple kick you can never complete the 2 bottom rows with just one bag - however it is possible to complete rows 2 and 3 as that http:////harddrop.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=7960&view=findpost&p=91696 opener proves.
Here are some ways how to stack the first 2 bags in C-Spin TKI signature, the setup mentioned in my very first post. I think only frames 1, 2, 3 and 7 are beneficial.
Actually, that setup is quite decent. It could be a good center 4-wide defense in Puyo Puyo Tetris. Here are some ways to achieve the Perfect Clear; there should be more (currently the PC tools are unavailable to me).
Here's one way how to stack the first bag and how it is continued in the second bag. Frames 3 and 5 show the standard way which is quite nice because the PC chance is decent and with the help of spins and softdrop it works for a whole bunch of first and second bags. However, the placement of the first S piece can be problematic if O and L piece come late in second bag. In this case it can prove better to place the first S piece differently.
Here's another way how to stack the first bag and how it is can be continued in the second bag. Here an early second Z piece can cause problems.
I have also updated my last post a little.
A further STD attack. It was found by pwn's solution finder with the settings noted in a readme file. 72.6 % PC rate in third bag (50.9 % if TSS or TSD beforehand).
And kinda a counterpart by switching sides and mirroring certain parts. 64.7 % PC rate in third bag (only 27.7 % if TSS or TSD beforehand).
I've written a wiki article (http://harddrop.com/wiki/DoubleYou) about those setups.
How about substituting the initial T-Spin Single with a T-Spin Mini? I've seen a Japanese Puyo Puyo Tetris player actually using the following setup, although a non-b2b T-Mini doesn't send any lines. On the other hand, you get a much better PC chance after 8 lines. Note that in Tetris Battle or Tetris Online Poland, a T-Spin Mini sends only 1 line less than a T-Spin Single, so it actually works decently there (+ b2b TSTs sending more lines than usual in those 2 games).
There are 2 different ways to stack the second bag. The first one has a PC rate of astounding 96.5 % (that's by far the most I've seen for a stack where a T-Spin is already prepared), and it's still 76.7 % if you want to get a TSS or TSD beforehand. The second one has a PC rate of 85.1 % (you'll need to use a lot of different hard-to-spot paths though); 66.3 % if TSS or TSD beforehand.
And here's a similar setup which I've given the name Joystick. I haven't seen anybody using it but I am pretty sure Japanese folks must have documentated it before. Very simple setup. You only need O piece before I piece in first bag, and despite its look nothing can go wrong in second bag. With the right continuation in second bag (the one where you do the odd clear), you get a PC rate of 82.7 %, whereas it's 75.1 % if you do a TSS or TSD beforehand (that's almost as much as for the better case of the other setup).
I've written a wiki article (http://harddrop.com/wiki/Mini_Triple_Double) about those setups.
In the following months I will try to do a little research on setups with just a T-Spin Single (with odd clear) followed by a T-Spin Double (not necessarily a T-Spin in third bag). Trying to find setups with a PC rate of 100 % achieved by only using a few easy solutions (where you only have to make an easy case differentiation). I think that's possible, because of that one Double PC case where you only need 2 different solutions in third bag (the odd clear is done in the first 4 lines).
The interesting thing about this Double PC case is that only one of the first 2 T pieces is dropped vertically - you usually get better PC rates by dropping both vertically. So I assume you should try to drop the first T piece vertically in the TSS -> TSD case I am interested in (to get easier solutions).
This post is about a setup that is listed first in pwn's setup finder when searching for TSD -> TSD -> 8 lines PC. This will send 19 or 20 lines in Puyo Puyo Tetris which is usually enough to top out a 4 wider. I like the fact that you can always stack the second bag in the following way if O piece comes after either I piece or T piece - you may have to use softdrop though.
Another nice thing is that you get a symmetric shape which you try to fill for the Perfect Clear. In fact, this setup has a 100 % PC rate. That means for every piece order in the third bag, there's at least one way to stack it that results in an empty board. However, you can only reach those 100 % by using a lot of different solutions. There are a little over 100 solutions and you'll need about 30 of them. Note, that if you place the T piece in the third bag, then you'll need to make an "odd clear" (usually clearing a single line with an odd number of empty cells below).
Here are all solutions. The number means how many piece orders will work for that solution (first number without hold, second number with hold; there are 5040 different piece orders in total).
You can stack the first 3 pieces (or 4 with hold) in one of the following 21 ways and maintain the 100 % success rate. At least one will be applicable in around 86.9 % of the cases (with the help of hold & maybe softdrops). I've tried to arrange them by the needed shapes:
You can stack the first 4 pieces (or 5 with hold) in one of the following around 100 ways and maintain the 100 % success rate. At least one will be applicable in around 99.5 % of the cases. If a way is marked with '?', then all for-this-way-working piece orders are covered by other same-pieces ways.
The remaining 0.5 % meanest cases will have the following pattern: the first 5 pieces will consist of T,I,L,O,J whereas O piece comes at the 4th position and L or J piece comes at the 5th position. Here you'll have to pay attention to the whole sequence (S comes before Z? or vice versa). At least one of the following 4 solutions will always work with the help of hold (or at least two of the following 10 solutions respectively):
I went through all 4-rows high fields that have no overhangs/holes and are theoretical PCable by placing exactly 6 pieces. That's basically the scenario you get when starting with 2 T-Spin Doubles and trying to get a 8th row PC afterwards. I got ~32,500 fields in total after making the following assumptions:
I guess I will leave it here: It's about a 14th row PC setup I once analized - no 8th row PC this time (the difference is that the PC is done with 7 pieces instead of 6). Setup was invented by Riviclia and it's a Pelican continuation. 14th row also means that it is loopable. However, for each of the first 4 bags, there's only about a 80 % chance to continue it in the shown way (and in third bag you may have to split TST into TSD + Single to achieve that chance). Setup clears a TSD, then wastes a T piece, followed by a TST and another TSD. The odd clear is done via a C-Spin (same as in BT Cannon loop). Like in the http://harddrop.com/wiki/BT_Cannon#BT_Cannon_C-Spin, there is a T-Spin prepared at the end of the fourth bag but the BT Cannon loop clears one more line on its way (2 TSTs).
Best BT Cannon loop continuation has a 99.9 % PC rate. Here, it's 100 %. Most frequent ways to achieve a PC (only 13 solutions required when knowing the whole bag):
99.40 % of all bags can be PCed with a T-Spin beforehand. And that's astounding in my opinion. There's about a 14.3 % chance that the T piece comes last in the bag, but in this case you can almost always reach the T piece with an I or O piece in hold, do a T-Spin Double and then a I-Single or O-Double afterwards.
98.06 % of all bags can be PCed without softdrop, not counting the optional T-Spin:
And there's a 98.10 % first-3-placements PC rate (see my last post - don't want to explain it again).
Here again first-3-placements where I tried to delete redundant ones and added some useful solutions on the top (some solutions are redundant but I included them because I thought they would result in less softdrops in certain cases; I did all this per hand - too much wasted time).
I recently read this thread and thought I might try my hand at making an 8 line C-Spin PC.
Here's the first bag.
Almost always possible with an early I.
And the second bag options with PC percentages.
You can usually get one of these. There are other options, but these have the highest PC%.
Note the second has a low probability to be set up, as the Z blocks the T from being spun in. This also prevents a full TST, so it's a TSS unless the I has been placed.
I wonder if there's a tool for determining the percent chance of setting these up...
And going in more detail in each of the options. (In order of appearance in the above fumen.)
Note you may not get the TSD, as you you need to fill in the block beside with a J.
Thank you for the reply. I tried to list some possible C-Spin setups with vertical T placements in this http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=91741&#entry91741 in case you missed it. I gave up on C-Spins after some practice. Didn't work out too well for me. From the ones you listed, the one with the I + L overhang looks the most interesting to me. BTW there's also a 4-lines PC opener called http://harddrop.com/wiki/Grace_System that stacks the IOSZ pieces the same way in the first bag.
I have a tool for determining the percent chance of setting one bag up but it is too messed up to share. These should be the chances, if you assume softdrop and demand a T-Spin Triple. The 3 listed first bag setups have a chance of 68.13 % together. The 7 (or rather 6) listed second bag setups have a 74.40 % together (i.e. at least one of them is stackable for 74% of all 5040 bags; and whenever the one with the horizontal I piece is stackable, then another one is also stackable).
I guess my post was kinda pointless, then, other than the I + L overhang.
You're right, I did miss that fumen. My bad.
Unfortunately, I'm a lot less smart than you, so I'll keep trying different setups bags to see if I can get high probability bags. If I find anything that works almost every time, I'll post it.
Forcing the TST limits the second bag, I believe. The probability of getting the second bag is quite a bit higher if you allow a TSS or a TSD. But you may not be able to offset garbage without the TST. I don't know how your program works, either, so maybe enforcing the TST was enforced .
Your post wasn't useless. For example, you listed the percentages (and sorted the 2nd bag setups by them) and the PC solutions. I didn't even know that you can make a Fumen (listing all solutions and their stacking percentages) with knewJade's solution finder - must be a newer version. And sorry I should have updated the first post (but editing posts messes up the layout for posts with images, so I didn't bother).
If you just demand 1 line clear with the T piece, then you get the following working rates for the 2nd bag setups. All setups together should work for 82.66 % (4166/5040) of all bags. I am not 100 % sure that my tool is working correctly (I haven't even implemented T-Spin Triple detection, also note that I inserted a T piece placement in the corresponding location to calculate the chances and that the tool just works for 1 bag and not beyond).
very late edit after the forums were closed down:
Aitch had http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8166&st=0&p=92467&#entry92467 a C-Spin with the first T piece placed vertically in another thread:
I wrote some code that basically creates all setups that start with 2 T-Spin Doubles and lead into a decent PC chance immediately afterwards (6 & 8 lines PCs).
According to the data, what "ajanba TKI" seems to be among the best (at least that's how I called it on the wiki http://harddrop.com/wiki/Opener#Unnamed_Technique page). Not sure why people barely use it.
Here's roughly how the output looks like (I tried to replicate the output of the setup-finder):
TSD -> TSD -> 8-th row PC
38 setups found
Best continuation: 100.00% PC success rate - http://tinyurl.com/y73s2cdw with at least 60.95% PC success rate
(I had to shorten the Fumen/URL)
That finishes my TSD -> TSD -> PC study. In a few months from now, I will have a look at TSS -> TSD -> PC, provided the algorithm is fast enough to also handle that case.
I liked that a lot. I really appreciate your work.
However, I can see some possible ones are missing because of the condition "no softdrop is used, no holes are made" and fumen below is an example.
Not a really big problem but just saying that some things are missing due to some conditions.
Thanks. The setup with a hole after 2 bags is interesting because you can place O, S & Z pieces in any order, thus it will work for a high amount of bags (you just need a rather late J or T). 99 % may sound like a big number but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PC is easy to achieve. I don't think setups with holes can be on par with the best setups without holes. Maybe, I will try to implement that (holes after 2 bags) in 2 months. This would be rather easy to implement although I don't know if the program would finish then in a reasonable amount of time. Implementing softdrop is harder but doesn't extent the runtime too much (after examing all harddrops I could check for every hole, if there's a placement that can be inserted there - I have programmed something similar before)
Here's a more complete download of the setup listing. This time it also mentions the chances to get a PC without hold and the chances to place the first 3 or 4 pieces in a way that guarantees a setup. This way I hope to illustrate better the quality of a playfield (among the 100 % PC rate ones).
The one http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92242&#entry92242 known from pwn's setup finder is among the best in every category (I think #2 at worst). The following playfield has the best chances (88 %) to guarantee a PC after placing 3 pieces. It can be reached after ajanba tki and also sometimes after a normal TKI setup:
Thanks. This setup with a hole after 2 bags is interesting because you can place O, S & Z pieces in any order, thus it will work for a high amount of bags (you just need a rather late J or T). 99 % may sound like a big number but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PC is easy to achieve. I don't think setups with holes can be on par with the best setups without holes. Maybe, I will try to implement that (holes after 2 bags) in 2 months. This would be rather easy to implement although I don't know if the program would finish in a reasonable amount of time then. Implementing softdrop is harder but doesn't extend the runtime too much (after examing all harddrops I could check for every hole, if there's a placement that can be inserted there - I have programmed something similar before)
Here's a more complete download of the setup list. This time it also mentions the chances to get a PC without hold and the chances to place the first 3 or 4 pieces in a way that guarantees a PC. I hope this is a more sophisticated way to illustrate the quality of a playfield (i.e. rank the 100 % PC playfields).
The one http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7960&st=15&p=92242&#entry92242 known from pwn's setup finder is among the best in every category (I think #2 at worst). The following playfield has the best chances (88 %) to guarantee a PC after placing 3 pieces. It can be reached after ajanba tki and also sometimes after a normal TKI setup:
Cool stuff. Perhaps you could sort them by the least amount of solutions they have? A setup with a 90% PC and 10 solutions is arguably better than a 100% PC and 100 solutions. I know the more redundant solutions they have the better chance you can PC impromptu, but knowing what solution you should go for from the start is faster.
I've been thinking about TSD PCs lately too, but instead of 2 TSD 8/6 row PCs, I've been doing TSD 6 row PCs. 6 row PCs are usually hard, as you have to change your solution based on the first 2 pieces of the next bag, but not requiring a TSD in that bag allows you to PC somewhat consistently.
Here's the setup.
I can PC with around 80% consistency with this method. Also I should note Albatross has a theoretical 100% PC rate. ...But its not actually 100%. 6 bags don't work.
A post about the 4 setups that seem to be best according to the 2 x TSD -> PC output. The setups have in common that they need an early I piece and a relatively early O piece. The Fumen lists some percentages which are the chances to place the pieces in the shown way (they are NOT the PC chances). For the first bag, the number in brackets means the chances, if you consider stacking the mirrored setup as well. If there's a number in brackets for the second bag, it means that you can theoretically make a line clear with an I piece before the T-Spin Double, in that case you lose the back-to-back bonus but chances to build this stack are increased. When I speak about "basic", I exclude solutions where you place a piece after the T piece (e.g. the I piece I was speaking about earlier). I include them for "extra" though.
setup from pwn's finder / black tea cannon
Note that the setups in frames 9 to 11 don't have a 100 % PC rate (but still > 99 %).
The following percentages refer to the Fumen above:
all 6 lines basic: 33.33 %
all 6 lines extra: 43.41 % (57.14 %)
all 8 lines basic: 77.66 %
all 8 lines extra: 80.56 %
all basic ones (6+8): 81.43 %
all extra ones (6+8): 83.29 % (84.01 %)
all 6 lines basic: 60.71 %
all 6 lines extra: 62.62 % (65.28 %)
all 8 lines basic: 71.03 %
all 8 lines extra: 71.03 %
all basic ones (6+8): 79.21 %
all extra ones (6+8): 79.40 % (79.88 %)
TKI 3 fonzie variation
all 6 lines basic: 60.16 %
all 6 lines extra: 62.98 % (64.48 %)
all 8 lines basic: 45.16 %
all 8 lines extra: 47.58 % (49.48 %)
all basic ones (6+8): 68.53 %
all extra ones (6+8): 69.33 % (70.52 %)
TKI 3 castle top variation
all 6 lines basic: 43.33 %
all 6 lines extra: 47.54 %
all 8 lines basic: 39.56 %
all 8 lines extra: 39.56 %
all basic ones (6+8): 63.25 %
all extra ones (6+8): 66.63 %
Note that TKI 3 castle top has the highest chances of working in the first bag. However, if it works, it also works at least one of the other 3 setups.
I think I will make a post tomorrow about a few other noteworthy 2 x TSD -> PC setups but it won't be as detailed.
Some other 2 x TSD -> PC setups. Again, percentages are the chances to stack the bags in the shown ways and NOT the PC rates. For 8 lines PC rates, read the texts. For 6 lines PC rates, read the remark at the end of this post.
Air TSD #1
That's the best performing setup where the bottom row is left empty in the first bag (platform TSD). For the first bag, you need an early O & J and a rather early I piece. Thus, sadly it's not really useful, as you can usually stack better performing setups (e.g. TKI 3) in this case. There's a 6 lines solution and the first shown 8 lines solution has 100 % PC rate, and the last 2 solutions about 98.5 %.
Air TSD #2
Another setup where the bottom row is left empty in the first bag. This only has a rather unlikely 6 lines solution, and the 8 solutions have rather low PC rates: it's about 98.5 % for the first one; and for the last 2 ones 97.7 % and 97.2 % respectively. On the plus side: One of the 3 shown 8 lines solutions is stackable in 86.71 % of the cases. Plus, you just need an early Z & O and a rather early I piece. Thus, it might be useful for bad bags. Note that Albatross works for similar bags and there's a good way to get 1 x TSD -> 6 lines PC with Albatross as Aitch has shown. Other setups for O & Z starts: Mr. T-Spin's STD, Hachispin, Joystick.
Vertical I piece
This is the only way to get a non-platform TSD with the first bag (ok, you can place the I piece on the other side but that's usually worse regarding PCs). This setup offers a 6 lines solution, and another one if you place an O piece afterwards. However, the the PC rates for the best 8 lines solutions are rather underwhelming: 96.4 % to 93.3 %. The setup is rather unique in its requirements: You need early L & J pieces and a rather early S piece. Other setups for L & J starts: DT Cannon, MKO Stacking.
For the sake of completeness the one with the I piece on the other side. That's basically the setup you get, if you place the O piece on the other snake piece (just the mirrored version of that). Here, it's impossible to get a 6 lines PC after 2 T-Spins. If you place T piece last in the second bag, you get similar PC rates as the ones mentioned above: 95.7 % to 93.7 % (but the stacking chances are higher). However, the situation is better, if you can place another piece after T: In this case you can get 99.6 % to 97.0 %
Very high 6 lines stacking chances
Those 2 setups really shine in stacking 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC. It's a 77.78 % chance that you can use one of those 2 solutions (one of them places an O piece above T). You may have to use softdrop a lot though. The 8 lines setups aren't that nice though: The best 2 PC rates you get are 95.8 and 91.6 % respectively (in case of the 95.8 % you have a nice split though, so easier to spot than usual). That chance can be increased a little if placing one piece after T: It's 97.1 % and 94.2 % in that case.
High 8 lines stacking chances
This setup doesn't offer any way to achieve a 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC. However, chances for 8 lines PC are decent. The first 2 solutions have 100 % PC rate, the others around 99.0 %. Around 85 % of all second bags can be stacked in at least one of the shown 5 ways.
Like TKI 3 Flat Top but not
For the lolz. The O piece is shifted towards the left side. This makes a 6 lines PC possible with T placed last. You have a 55.24 % chance to stack at least one of the 6 lines solutions. However, this setup is horrible otherwise. Barely any good spots for setting up a T slot. The best solution with T coming last has only 80 % PC rate (it's 94.3 % if you can place a L after T, that's the only 8 lines solution I've included in this Fumen).
A remark to round off all those 2 x TSD -> 6 lines PC setups: There's also a chance to substitute the T-Spin Double with a T-Spin Single. This can increase the PC chance a lot, assuming you don't know which pieces you get at the start of the third bag. Let's say you have to play with 1 preview for whatever reason. In that case after stacking one of those "6 lines solutions" the chance for a Perfect Clear is somewhere between 28.57 % and 52.38 %. The best case is when there's a hole in the shape of an O piece above the T slot. In that case, you can also make a T-Spin Single and have a PC with a J or L piece (depending on overhang) instead of an O piece (this means you get the PC if either O or J is among the first 2 pieces of the third bag). Worst case scenario is that the T-Spin doesn't clear the bottom line. In that case, a T-Spin Single will not help at all. In the following Fumen, the percentages represent the chances to get a Perfect Clear when not looking ahead.
I saw the 3 wide 8 tall perfect clear build that okey posted which inspired me to look into it more and find an easy way to get a perfect clear without having to memorize hundreds of solutions. I've made http://tinyurl.com/y6oscfbh to show the various ways to build it and the 3 main ways to get a perfect clear. Hope this helps.
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