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> How to set up Perfect Clears
belzebub
post Jul 1 2011, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Apr 9 2010, 02:01 AM) *

I've been playing around with this but I prefer the other side of the screen..... I can only seem to get 11 of the combos though.



IJT, ILZ, IOL, IOT, IJS, TLZ, JSZm ITZ, OTL, ITL, STZ

Guess I Suck >_<

My TF account has 107 PCs in 1897 games... not too bad for a n00b I think, especially since it's not my normal opener.


I like to play it like that, now basically you have 4 tetrimino's coming up, but the frequency is different for the outs. That gives an interesting perspective on how to view the next 4 tetrimino's, starting from 1.

For example you have 7 I's in the outs, so you can almost always use an I and there are only two options for it to place it, vertical or horizontal, with 6 outs in the horizontal position. That means that there are outs for every other of the 6 tetrimino's in the second bag. On the other side, when you have a J there are only two outs (you said J in one of the combinations but actually it's L).

You can setup a tree for every tetrimino, I think the shortest algorithm will take the smallest tree, like the J tree, then throw those combinations quickly away, sort of elimination algorithm. Rather then taking the I and exploring every possible combination.

However my brains follow the I path, putting it there, creating a 8 hole gap for only tetrimino's that you can quickly grasp if it will fit or not while having the highest probability of having an out.


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DarthDuck
post Sep 28 2011, 07:57 AM
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I hope no one minds if I bump this thread.

I just learned how to perfect clear using the main setup everyone has been going over, and am ok at it now. However, I am yet to land a second perfect clear in a row due to starting halfway through the next bag. I was wondering if I should even bother going for a second one (in multiplayer) since I am now 0/??.

Also, I would be extremely grateful to Caffeine if he could do a mini fumen extravaganza showing what was going on in his head while he made that video. He seemed to be randomly solving each perfect clear like a puzzle. I consider that 100x more difficult, just like how anyone could solve a rubik's cube with instructions but almost no one can do it improvisationally.

But I also am intrigued by the point that just doing the same thing at the start every time will make the whole thing faster. I think there's a lot more on this topic that could be unfolded so please share your ideas if you have them.

I also arbitrarily chose to learn the first pattern in this fumen, in case anyone thinks I'm on the wrong track with that:

QUOTE(Magnanimous @ Mar 4 2010, 11:42 PM) *




And one more question: should I try to do them down the center like how raven was showing or is that just for midgame? I liked the point on how it trains you to stack flatter.


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Pyrrhonian disclaimer: If I use assertive language, then I only do so as a manner of speaking. I might say "the sun will rise tomorrow", but deep down, like anything else, I can never really know that. So if I ever make a strong claim, it's probably because I am that much more unsure of it and am hoping to provoke correction.
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Ravendarksky
post Sep 28 2011, 10:09 AM
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Hi there,

I wouldn't bother going for a second one in multiplayer... although if you DO land a second one go for a third with the original pattern.... it seems to work a lot more of the time.

After the first PC I adopt a general strategy: Look at the next five pieces coming, see if I can fit three/four of them into a Box type area OR something similar to to the pointy side of the standard PC setup.

I then look at the next five pieces and do the same IF I think I can get a PC using the pieces coming up after
OR
I try and build a shape I can fill with the remaining pieces.

I think it helps to think of the PC setup as three parts:

LOJ
I
TSZ

You can stack these on opposite sides of the screen, reverse the order of them, Put the I on either side.

Common mistakes when going for extra PCs is not to leave good spaces for I blocks.

For advanced training I would highly suggest playing through the puzzles on Tetris DS (Although many of them aren't great, it does get your brain thinking more about PC solutions) and also learning some more Boxy setups...

I can't fumen because I'm at work. I'll try and remember to add some later.

Another very basic rule of Improv perfect clearing is not to create spaces which leave unfillable gaps. You need to make sure to place your pieces in ways which don't create 3,2 or 1 block gaps.


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DarthDuck
post Sep 28 2011, 07:31 PM
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Thanks for the advice on on making a box after the first PC, but I'm confused that you suggest that and also not to do a second PC in multiplayer? I guess for the second you are referring to 1P modes or spontaneous midgame situations.

I'm excited about this opening because if anything it's great early downstacking. While I see some people top out in the first 20 seconds from spikes, I find that my early survival rate is higher than ever using this.

Something else that might be worth discussing are ways to optimize bailing from a PC. If I recognize failure early I usually can get a great TKI start with something like this, and set it up just as fast as if I was not trying for a PC:



--------------------
Pyrrhonian disclaimer: If I use assertive language, then I only do so as a manner of speaking. I might say "the sun will rise tomorrow", but deep down, like anything else, I can never really know that. So if I ever make a strong claim, it's probably because I am that much more unsure of it and am hoping to provoke correction.
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toppingoutivan
post Sep 28 2011, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE(DarthDuck @ Sep 28 2011, 07:31 PM) *

Thanks for the advice on on making a box after the first PC, but I'm confused that you suggest that and also not to do a second PC in multiplayer? I guess for the second you are referring to 1P modes or spontaneous midgame situations.

I'm excited about this opening because if anything it's great early downstacking. While I see some people top out in the first 20 seconds from spikes, I find that my early survival rate is higher than ever using this.

Something else that might be worth discussing are ways to optimize bailing from a PC. If I recognize failure early I usually can get a great TKI start with something like this, and set it up just as fast as if I was not trying for a PC:




I don't suggest doing a second PC in multiplayer.
I personally tried that before, and usually what you get is the people reflecting the garbage that you generated with the first PC then someone else does the same for the second PC's garbage.
Bailing out of the PC, I usually do 1 tetris and then move on to tspins.
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post Sep 28 2011, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Sep 28 2011, 04:09 AM) *

Hi there,

I wouldn't bother going for a second one in multiplayer... although if you DO land a second one go for a third with the original pattern.... it seems to work a lot more of the time.



yeah, going for multiple pcs in a row is a tricky thing to do. eventually I got some idea of it down, and you described the overall feel of it well.
for certain scenarios you can get multiple pcs in a row in a guaranteed way. for example, if you get a pc using bag+TOI, you have a guaranteed second pc. after the second pc (guaranteed one for this case), you will have a leftover T, which can be used with the normal method of setting up and nearly guarantees a pc. for an absolute guarantee you would have to break method, but it only fails in exceptionally unlucky circumstance (T+O+Z+Z for example)
here is a quick fumen of a triple PC based off of the TOI+bag base PC:


im sure there are other multiple PCs that are guaranteed, but memorizing them all doesnt appeal to me, so I havent done research into the field.
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Ravendarksky
post Sep 29 2011, 11:53 AM
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PC bailing is MUCH better if you play in the middle of the field like this:



There are no advantages to playing at the edges and this way allows more ways of setting up your PC, canceling it and also allows for a 4 wide combo abort.

Here is a fumen from my TF marathon perfect scoring guide you may find interesting, although its more concerned with doing: 2 dig combo -> TSMS -> TST



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DarthDuck
post Sep 30 2011, 09:11 AM
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Raven, when you open with perfect clears, do you also do them down the center?


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Pyrrhonian disclaimer: If I use assertive language, then I only do so as a manner of speaking. I might say "the sun will rise tomorrow", but deep down, like anything else, I can never really know that. So if I ever make a strong claim, it's probably because I am that much more unsure of it and am hoping to provoke correction.
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Ravendarksky
post Oct 3 2011, 10:48 AM
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I almost always do them in the middle... There is no advantage to doing them at the side! It's always a worse choice.


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zaphod77
post Oct 3 2011, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(Noogy @ Jun 7 2010, 03:06 PM) *




This setup is good for KOS with air garbage if you can pull it off and have the right pieces.

This is because you can eat the attack and continue the perfect clear, undoing their attack completely and sending 8+ lines to them, which they will almost certainly have to eat most of.

If the t is late enough in the bag, you can decide where to put the T in response to seeing your three pieces, and bail to one of the more standard PC setups, as shown above. Note that many of these examples let you eat the attack before performing the PC.
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themaster
post Oct 29 2011, 06:01 AM
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So which of these combos has the most amount of pieces.. I read a account of 12 above.. but someone mentioned up to 30? Laugh.png
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Ravendarksky
post Oct 29 2011, 09:49 AM
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..............?


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themaster
post Oct 30 2011, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Oct 29 2011, 09:49 AM) *

..............?
What I mean is.. above it's reported that "perfect clear" can be 12 out of 36 possible piece’s?

Just wondering if there has been another method discovered/research that allows more combo's? Smile.png

As someone mentioned above 30 of 36 is possible Smile.png
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DarthDuck
post Oct 30 2011, 08:21 PM
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If you pay careful attention to the fumens in this thread, they are all juxtapositions of the same thing. So for now, that's the only method we've been discussing. Maybe you can derive some alternative methods by trying to follow what Caffeine was doing:
QUOTE(Anonymous @ Mar 4 2010, 01:23 PM) *


And also, you didn't find a contradiction in the statistics, the 30/35 comment was in reference to being able to start anyway you want (as if you could see all 10 pieces in the preview). The relative 2/7 stat we have for executing this without early multiplayer pressure is because we have to guess what the last 3 pieces will be, so we may as well just do the same thing everytime (since you'll learn to speed it up).

QUOTE(Noogy @ Jun 21 2010, 06:45 PM) *

magnanimous's setup is better because it's done in "chunks" where as mine is harder to execute (even if you try to mirror it). I merely posted it to show that his setup didn't have more solutions, plus im really into this sort of puzzly stuff. On a side note, i also came up with this theorem which states the following:

"ignoring piece sequences, it is possible to create a perfect clear with a bag + 3 different pieces"

This can be proven if you just come up with solutions for 35 sequences, i found 30/35 and then got bored lol

I still am anxious to see Caffeine or someone else try to sum up what went on in his head during that video, so give it a try if you like.


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Pyrrhonian disclaimer: If I use assertive language, then I only do so as a manner of speaking. I might say "the sun will rise tomorrow", but deep down, like anything else, I can never really know that. So if I ever make a strong claim, it's probably because I am that much more unsure of it and am hoping to provoke correction.
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themaster
post Oct 30 2011, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE(DarthDuck @ Oct 30 2011, 08:21 PM) *
I still am anxious to see Caffeine or someone else try to sum up what went on in his head during that video, so give it a try if you like.
I've studied that video a few times.. Smile.png

All I can guess is he knows how to break the blocks down into semi-patterns.. he's also pretty good at making use of S and Z

I can also cognitively see twice he/she screwed up and or made a mistake, he had a piece order Grin.png

If you’re not a big "NullpoMino" fan.. what's a good way to practice all tetris skills that's fun/interesting? (besides live practice) Smile.png

From what I've seen "NullpoMino" isn't fun (great tool for training maybe) but fun?? not exactly..

(I have been using it to learn "perfect clears" and it is helping but it's also a obnoxious program at the same time Sticking Out Tongue.png)
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