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Forums - Hard Drop - Tetris Community _ Strategy/Help _ Simple Tspin Double Guide

Posted by: Ravendarksky Apr 29 2010, 11:41 PM

This is just a description I'm making for a TF buddy. I thoguht I'd post it here though as others may find it useful.

Tspin doubles mid game are very easy to perform once you know to look for a few simple things. To get started tspinning when you are a stacker the best thing to do is simply to play normally but look for instances where you can take advantage of tspins.

First you want to look for T shapes in your stack and take advantage of them. Here are the basic ones.



Once you have the hang of that you want to start thinking about building your own T shapes. Here are the basic setups for this:



Obviously if you do a #10 or #14 you have to build up around it before you Tspin. There are slightly harder setups to spot where this isn't the case:



If you don't want to just memorise patterns, or you find this hard, another trick is to simply visualise a T over your stack top and imagine its there and place a piece above it but touching only one square (so you can tspin into it).


Once you have the hang of Tspinning over your stack you will want to start thinking about building Tspins elsewhere, perhaps from scratch even.

From Scratch:


Generally it is best to make these as 'flat' as possible. This increases your chances of being able to do a second one afterwards. Don't worry if you end up with a huge stack, I do all the time! (See last frame of previous fumen diagram for an example) These generally result from having to wait for a certain piece.

We can decrease the chance of this happening by being good at the art of 'skimming'.

This article in the wiki can give you some ideas... I wouldn't spend too long on it though, better to play around in multiplayer: http://harddrop.com/wiki/Skimming

Some skimming examples:





Any questions let me know smile.gif

Posted by: Blink Apr 30 2010, 12:49 AM

here's another simple one for uneven surfaces.


Posted by: holdnext Apr 30 2010, 04:37 AM

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Apr 29 2010, 04:41 PM) *






#20 or #21 building a T-Spin. This best works with items on just in case your opponent twists your board.

Posted by: Ravendarksky May 6 2010, 11:33 AM

Rather than skimming to create a T, you can also Skim to get rid of pieces without stacking up. You would only do this if you didn't have any T pieces coming.

L/J Shift


L/J Riser


S/Z Mover


ahh my diagrams arent very clear.. ill fix them later :<

Prophecy T-Spins

Once you get the hang of basic tspin doubles, you want to start looking at using your garbage and playing ahead to create tspins later. This is called prophecy Tspinning

Here is an example. I'll add more when I have time.

Posted by: Wojtek May 6 2010, 11:47 AM

Good tutorial. I think it's very useful for t-spin beginners.

Posted by: ZeroT May 6 2010, 12:03 PM

A simlpe but overlooked TSD setup is the yoshihiro SD biggrin.gif


it allows you to keep your stack neat and concise and packs a punch!


Posted by: Ravendarksky May 6 2010, 12:20 PM

QUOTE(ZeroT @ May 6 2010, 12:03 PM) *

A simlpe but overlooked TSD setup is the yoshihiro SD biggrin.gif
it allows you to keep your stack neat and concise and packs a punch!


This is sick because it counts as a B2B TSD. Thanks zero smile.gif

Posted by: XaeL May 6 2010, 01:35 PM

an even more overlooked one is the kaidan (stairs) setup. which i use alot more than yoshihiro.



ALso remember that the simplest and easiest way to earn victories (in 1v1 at least) is to do the tsd-tetris-tetris combo (it sends 15 garbage)


Posted by: Ravendarksky May 6 2010, 03:12 PM

I reworked your diagram to be a bit clearer Xael, hope you don't mind smile.gif


Posted by: XaeL May 6 2010, 10:07 PM

you failed @ 3step everything needs to be lower by one level

also most of this is in the wiki..................................

the next logical thing to learn is T-Spin Finesse.

Posted by: massi4h May 6 2010, 10:53 PM

Yeah I remember watching all the good TDS players early on and that always made me rage when they did the one square slower option. I guess lots of games don't reward kicked t-spins like splash though. Which means after playing a bit of splash I tend to not kick them sometimes. Stairs is always a good setup as is yoshihiro sd except for games like tf that don't reward kicked tss's. Another way is if you're stacking one side for tetrises and you see you have a t-spin gap in the middle of your stack, you can cleverly cover the empty column with like a s/z or o (or any piece if you want a tss or tst) then clear that with your t-spin.

Posted by: RoyalLance Jun 21 2010, 02:58 AM

I'm kind of green to the T-Spin double setups but this guide really helps. Definitely gonna bookmark this.

Posted by: XaeL Jun 21 2010, 11:32 AM

i just did this impromptu in a game

Posted by: Ravendarksky Aug 9 2010, 12:39 PM

I thought I'd add what I've been practising lately.

Basically the idea is to keep your stack nice and flat to allow for more tspinning opportunities using the basics discussed in the first post.





This article in the wiki can give you some ideas for flattening various scenarios... I wouldn't spend too long on it though, better to play around in multiplayer

http://harddrop.com/wiki/Skimming




Posted by: ZeroT Aug 9 2010, 05:11 PM

When stacking for TSDs I despise using the t-block to make the overhang...but every now-and-again you will have to. When its necessary its best if you lay the block flat, like raven said flat stacks always give you better options going forward, and Tetris is a very much a percentage game. (Always try to keep an I or T block in your hold)


Posted by: jca483 Aug 10 2010, 04:03 AM

for some1 like me who is barely beginning to explore different techniques other than the tetris setup, this is very helpful. very greatful for this post, and all of ur guy's help. thx.

jc

Posted by: XaeL Aug 10 2010, 04:43 AM

if you wnat to send lots of tspin doubles easily, learn how to tsd + skim continously

Posted by: Noogy Aug 10 2010, 05:14 AM

QUOTE(XaeL @ Aug 10 2010, 04:43 AM) *

if you wnat to send lots of tspin doubles easily, learn how to tsd + skim continously



IPB Image

Posted by: ManOfMiracles Aug 10 2010, 06:17 AM

I hardly ever see people do this(probably because it breaks back-to-back bonus), but I use this a lot to keep pressuring my opponent.

You can continue and make a t-spin single on the left and you can then set another t-spin double on top of that single.

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Aug 10 2010, 05:54 AM) *

You can continue and make a t-spin single on the left and you can then set another t-spin double on top of that single.

Because some people fail to see this:

Posted by: Noogy Aug 10 2010, 09:11 AM

what a waste of T's

Posted by: Ravendarksky Aug 10 2010, 09:59 AM

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Aug 10 2010, 06:17 AM) *

I hardly ever see people do this(probably because it breaks back-to-back bonus), but I use this a lot to keep pressuring my opponent.


Nice! I'll have to pay more attention for double gap oppertunities like that.
I do think that your example isn't perfect though, that I placement really messes with your gaps (I always try and leave a one gap or a three gap). Better to shove it out of the way (assuming no garbage in far left column) and play on I think.

I've used the same peices as you here.... and my playthrough naturally ends in an example of what you are talking about smile.gif Setting up a 4th TSD that I probably wouldn't normally see.

Posted by: ManOfMiracles Aug 10 2010, 05:04 PM

lol Raven = pro stacker
Yeah, I probably would have done what you did. But I was just giving examples of what that double gap thing(does it have a name?) looks like.

Posted by: Ravendarksky Aug 10 2010, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Aug 10 2010, 05:04 PM) *

lol Raven = pro stacker
Yeah, I probably would have done what you did. But I was just giving examples of what that double gap thing(does it have a name?) looks like.

It's easy when you can choose your pieces smile.gif I'm too slow to bother with iron crosses in vs right now. need to get a bit faster first

Posted by: NoManual Aug 18 2010, 01:00 AM

If you do only T-spin doubles, will you still keep your B2B or will double t-spin not get u that B2B bonus?

Posted by: Noogy Aug 18 2010, 01:12 AM

you will keep your b2b

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 15 2010, 04:32 PM

I've been looking at moving garbage holes. and Tspin cancelling. Obviously this breaks B2B bonus

L/J TST


S/Z offsetter

Posted by: ManOfMiracles Sep 15 2010, 10:37 PM

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Sep 15 2010, 04:32 PM) *



Wouldn't this be easier:

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 15 2010, 10:53 PM

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Sep 15 2010, 10:37 PM) *

Wouldn't this be easier

The idea is that you know you dont have any Ts coming, so you are using other pieces in the interim. Otherwise you'd always just shove a T in the hole.

When you get good enough at Tspinning, you can build the Ts faster than you get Ts... or so i find when i play well (rarely) haha

Posted by: ManOfMiracles Sep 15 2010, 11:06 PM

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Sep 15 2010, 10:53 PM) *

The idea is that you know you dont have any Ts coming, so you are using other pieces in the interim. Otherwise you'd always just shove a T in the hole.

When you get good enough at Tspinning, you can build the Ts faster than you get Ts... or so i find when i play well (rarely) haha

I was just using the piece sequence you were using...

Posted by: jemm_4 Sep 16 2010, 12:34 AM

these are some pro(to me) t-spins D: nice

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 16 2010, 10:10 AM

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Sep 15 2010, 11:06 PM) *

I was just using the piece sequence you were using...

The fumen diagram is confusing..... Notice all the grey between pieces, you would have to build all that between the first red piece and the T The idea is that you may have used several T pieces just before creating that setup, so you aren't counting on getting one anytime soon. Stacking for a TST-TSD can be a good option if you are in this situation and low down, rather than just stacking around your T-Hole.


Sorry this isn't really relevant for "Simple Tspin Double Guide" :<


Posted by: Someone2knoe Sep 16 2010, 11:10 PM

I remember how hard it was learning to t-spin. Now its ez cheez

Posted by: NoManual Sep 25 2010, 11:56 AM

I'm learning it tongue.gif Starting to get a hand of it, but can't do TSD x2.. Well this new-beginners guide is lovely, thanks!

Now I will crush my friend even more in TPD, mohohaha :>>>>>>

Posted by: NoManual Sep 27 2010, 05:54 AM

can any1 tell me how much garbage a TSD is sending in Tetris party deluxe? with and w/o B2B. And the same about Tetrises?
tytyty :>

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 27 2010, 04:02 PM

QUOTE(NoManual @ Sep 27 2010, 05:54 AM) *

can any1 tell me how much garbage a TSD is sending in Tetris party deluxe? with and w/o B2B. And the same about Tetrises?
tytyty :>

I'm assuming this page can help you, i don't have time to read it just now:

http://harddrop.com/wiki/Tetris_Party_Deluxe

http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2184


Posted by: chopin Sep 27 2010, 10:59 PM

After you learn T-Spin Double, next to learn is T-Spin Triple, then the hardest one is T-Spin Mini/EZ.

Posted by: Paul676 Sep 27 2010, 11:02 PM

I disagree - I think it's harder to tst and tsd than to tsm - it's just that to tsm successfully, you need to do it loads and loads of times in the right place at the right time. But people don't notice missed opportunities to build tsd/tsts unless they're blindingly obvious - hence the illusion. Also, people learn to tsd/tst first, making the same illusion

Posted by: Someone2knoe Sep 28 2010, 12:36 AM

I think T-Spin triple is harder. I can see opportunities mid game now. But Its usually not worth it because you need to set up a 3 wide column to put the T in. Sometimes I make it backwards too hehe.

Posted by: chopin Sep 28 2010, 12:59 AM

Well, it's not really an illusion. The variances for T-Spin Mini seems a lot more complex to me than T-Spin Doubles and Triples. I've studied a lot of T-Spins and I think that T-Spin Mini is so overlooked that it really does become harder than the other two. Regardless, the correct order to learn is probably TSD, TST, then TSM. You can see decently nice mid-game TSTs from players occasionally but the same is not true for seeing nice TSMs.

Of course there's the arbitrary TSM every once in a while but it's not "set up." That's like sayings if you know how to put the piece in and rotate a TST, then that means you know how do them and they're easy. The complexity is in the setup itself, the foresight, and the timing. Many of these setups are quite hard to see. TSM is awkward and should only be done at right times, whereas TSD and TST are a bit more plentiful. I guess it does matter what you learn first, but TSM should be learned eventually - it's an important part on the road to T-Spin mastery.

Posted by: Someone2knoe Sep 28 2010, 01:28 AM

I think its just used less because less people care for it, they are just thinking about how powerful a tsd or tst is. Its not that its harder, but people don't even want to use it in the first place.

Show me some practical tsm that people would find hard to do?

Posted by: NoManual Sep 29 2010, 02:07 PM

where do u start to stack? hard to explain.. hmm.. I'll try..

are you stacking with an opening on the right side, left side, middle or something else? tongue.gif

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 29 2010, 02:10 PM

QUOTE(NoManual @ Sep 29 2010, 02:07 PM) *

where do u start to stack? hard to explain.. hmm.. I'll try..

are you stacking with an opening on the right side, left side, middle or something else? tongue.gif

Are you meaning for starting a game with a Tspin double?

I'll add a section for Opening with quick TSDs if you want...?

Posted by: ManOfMiracles Sep 29 2010, 02:15 PM

You can almost always start the game with this, or some sort of variation of it.


Posted by: crzy242 Sep 29 2010, 02:49 PM

i suck at tspins tongue.gif

Posted by: Ravendarksky Sep 29 2010, 03:18 PM

I try and make them as flat as possible so you can make more... I don't have any actual starting setups, but here is the logic I follow:




Basically making a one gap and using the first post setups after that.


Reworded guide and updated Fumens,

also pinched fumens from throughout this thread and added them to the first posts. I'll add more later when I have time.

Posted by: perfectclear Dec 22 2010, 04:54 AM

QUOTE(chopin @ Sep 27 2010, 10:59 PM) *

After you learn T-Spin Double, next to learn is T-Spin Triple, then the hardest one is T-Spin Mini/EZ.


Oddly, I learned how to TST before I learned how to TSD. Probably because I was learning from setups and "OZJ, then overhang" was a lot simpler to remember for me.

Posted by: Sozu Jan 15 2011, 02:22 PM

I'm going crazy on t-spins, it always gets fkd up.

I checked on facebooks ranking at the tetris ultra, how they stacked, and I've now learned me some of the ways to do that, what blocks I shall use on which places and where I shouldn't put any block etcetc.

But anyway it still feels so impossible to do.

Here was after some training, It was kinda hard to avoid getting holes.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2i0gbw1.jpg



Then finally I thouight I started to get it here,
but is this place wrong now? Because it's just 1 little hole there I should drop a green Z, or something else, and then it would be a hole left there..
http://i56.tinypic.com/kbygh.jpg




Is there some recommanded guide for this one? I searched on youtube some, but doesn't find any good one.

Posted by: Ravendarksky Jan 15 2011, 02:42 PM

QUOTE(Sozu @ Jan 15 2011, 02:22 PM) *

I'm going crazy on t-spins, it always gets fkd up.

I checked on facebooks ranking at the tetris ultra, how they stacked, and I've now learned me some of the ways to do that, what blocks I shall use on which places and where I shouldn't put any block etcetc.

But anyway it still feels so impossible to do.

Here was after some training, It was kinda hard to avoid getting holes.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2i0gbw1.jpg

Then finally I thouight I started to get it here,
but is this place wrong now? Because it's just 1 little hole there I should drop a green Z, or something else, and then it would be a hole left there..
http://i56.tinypic.com/kbygh.jpg

Is there some recommanded guide for this one? I searched on youtube some, but doesn't find any good one.

Hi there,

This may be what you are looking for:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=175252


Posted by: Sozu Jan 15 2011, 02:46 PM

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 15 2011, 02:42 PM) *

Hi there,

This may be what you are looking for:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=175252


That link didn't work, was ... dots in it. But I could figure out how the link would be:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175252
Grin.png
Thanks, will read it now.

Posted by: Ravendarksky Jan 18 2011, 10:25 AM

From a chopin post:

Setting up b2b T-spins without ruining your existing one

Posted by: Apa7HY Feb 22 2011, 12:52 PM

I'm relatively new to Tetris (been playing since around October). I'm kind of a noob still at 30 LPM, 17ish APM on TOJ. I recently added T-spins to my game, but it's slowed me down to about 25ish LPM and 14ish APM. I think my issue is that I don't know WHEN to T-spin, and I rarely maintain a B2B. Is the idea to stack hard with a single spaced gap and then set up a B2B TSD/Tetris chain? I find it hard to stack unless the gap is on the far right or left, and even then, I'm a 2-wide comboer, so when I see a 2-wide gap in my stack after a TSD, I combo down as much as possible. Sometimes I set up a TSD at the beginning of the game on purpose just so my stack has a 2-wide gap after I TSD. This seems inefficient though.

Posted by: Ravendarksky Feb 22 2011, 01:01 PM

QUOTE(Apa7HY @ Feb 22 2011, 12:52 PM) *

I'm relatively new to Tetris (been playing since around October). I'm kind of a noob still at 30 LPM, 17ish APM on TOJ. I recently added T-spins to my game, but it's slowed me down to about 25ish LPM and 14ish APM. I think my issue is that I don't know WHEN to T-spin, and I rarely maintain a B2B. Is the idea to stack hard with a single spaced gap and then set up a B2B TSD/Tetris chain? I find it hard to stack unless the gap is on the far right or left, and even then, I'm a 2-wide comboer, so when I see a 2-wide gap in my stack after a TSD, I combo down as much as possible. Sometimes I set up a TSD at the beginning of the game on purpose just so my stack has a 2-wide gap after I TSD. This seems inefficient though.

Hi there,

I would expect adding Tspins to slow you down a LOT at first. Don't give up though ^_^

I'm no expert but I'd suggest not thinking about b2b until you have the hang of setting up your tspin doubles. Using a Tspin double as an opener for a 2-wide stack is a fairly natural thing to do when starting out as you will end up stacking high while waiting for that next T piece. This could suggest that you are not holding Tpieces OR you are using them to build your tspins. The best way I use B2b unless i see a good tspin setup is to stack for a Tspin just after doing a tetris, or stack for a tetris just after doing a tspin. DO NOT do this if you are high up! concentrate on downstacking and attack when low. (Unless you can see that one more quick TSD will kill your opponent)

If you are finding it hard to stack in the middle.... Don't! Just play tetris and get good at doing Tspins off of garbage. You will be forced to have holes that aren't at the edge by your incoming garbage.

Improv opener Tspin doubles are a great way to get started learning.

Post back and let me know if there's anything I can help you with Smile.png

Posted by: jujube Feb 25 2011, 06:12 AM

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Feb 22 2011, 01:01 PM) *

If you are finding it hard to stack in the middle.... Don't! Just play tetris and get good at doing Tspins off of garbage. You will be forced to have holes that aren't at the edge by your incoming garbage.

yeah definitely. just by keeping your stack flat while downstacking you'll naturally have lots of chances to make TSD setups around garbage holes.

Posted by: Paul676 Mar 7 2011, 01:30 AM

In terms of basic tspin double setups, this is how I think of them:


Posted by: jujube Mar 12 2011, 07:24 AM

QUOTE(ManOfMiracles @ Aug 10 2010, 06:17 AM) *

I hardly ever see people do this(probably because it breaks back-to-back bonus), but I use this a lot to keep pressuring my opponent.

You can continue and make a t-spin single on the left and you can then set another t-spin double on top of that single.

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Aug 10 2010, 09:59 AM) *

Nice! I'll have to pay more attention for double gap oppertunities like that.
I do think that your example isn't perfect though, that I placement really messes with your gaps (I always try and leave a one gap or a three gap). Better to shove it out of the way (assuming no garbage in far left column) and play on I think.

I've used the same peices as you here.... and my playthrough naturally ends in an example of what you are talking about Smile.png Setting up a 4th TSD that I probably wouldn't normally see.

i was going to post something like this but saw MoM had already. i've been doing this more and more, and it's getting to be natural. it's especially good if there's rising solid garbage because it's such an efficient conversion of a 2-wide gap. it's also an effective way to keep your stack flat so the next TSD will come easily as well.

in multiplayer i would almost invariably use the I for the overhang like MoM did to keep the stack low and flat. Raven your frames 7-9 are a good idea and i think that would work fine, but the later conversion to an imperial cross was a little ambitious given the situation. you're giving the opponent a lot of time to prepare for the attack, when you could be making your 2nd T-spin.

Posted by: caffeine Mar 12 2011, 07:50 PM

These are a couple of obvious alternatives... for completeness.



There are two other possibilities. We could clear down the double hole using a Tetris (maintaining the B2B). However, when you think about it in terms of "garbage sent per tetrominoes used," this might not be the best option.

The other possibility is to squeeze in a TST, but that depends on the shape of the field.

Posted by: jujube Mar 24 2011, 02:24 AM

this is probably around the forum already. it uncovers the open column after the 2nd TSD unlike imperial cross.

example continuation using the same theme. seems like a single-block-overhang over an empty column can be an asset.

Posted by: atomitekke Jun 25 2011, 09:25 PM

http://harddrop.com/file/pic/gallery/3254.jpg


I made this set-up to make 4 t-spin-doubles on top of eachother. I actually even managed to make them, but there's a problem with excess pieces. So it's a nice trick, but needs some refinement.

Posted by: farter Jun 26 2011, 06:46 AM

seems to be the only way to solve the problem on the first frame..

Posted by: Ravendarksky Jun 26 2011, 12:16 PM

There are more varations of that in the spins thread.

These days I try and play more carefully... I'd probably do this (when not being pressured by far better opponents)

Posted by: Paul676 Aug 27 2011, 07:20 PM

S/Z Mover: You can also do the S/Z Stacker, where you place them and not clear lines

Posted by: dispo_io Aug 28 2011, 03:37 AM

you should make a guide for s/z spin doubles and triples, they are pretty useful for down stacking.

Posted by: beexlow Nov 21 2011, 03:32 PM

Sir can anyone show the stairs something technique? I found last time but i cant find it at the moment. :S

Posted by: XaeL Nov 21 2011, 03:34 PM

first page 7th post.

http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2126&st=7

Posted by: beexlow Nov 21 2011, 03:43 PM

Thanks! Xael, Really helpful forum. Sticking Out Tongue.png

Posted by: swagsushi Jun 27 2012, 09:15 AM

Hey im a tetris stacker/occasional tsd user and hopefully tst soon. Thanks to harddrop my sent lines went from 40 to 90 in an 1on1 on facebooks tetris battle.. now im making my way to lvl 100, so since you have 5 lives on fb tetris there will be those builds : http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=lt49XuMB0Ks

Will i have to do those builds as well to counter them? Or can i just keep doing it my way and have to get faster? Im not very fast i still need over a minute for 40 line race..

Btw when do harddrop accounts get deleted?

Posted by: Paul676 Jun 27 2012, 12:03 PM

as long as you're good enough you'll be able to counterpunch ST-stackers who are at your level.

Harddrop accounts don't get deleted unless you ask Blink to.

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