Is learning Finesse ever efficient in Puyo Puyo Tetris?

[Galactoid]

Puyo Puyo Tetris is my first Tetris game.

I've been trying to learn Finesse recently, but I'm conflicted about whether or not it is efficient in PPT.

This is because, I noticed that sometimes, not using finesse is faster, using what some players call a "skill stop" - as in, pressing the left or right directions until your piece is at the desired area, instead of using DAS right -> tab left, or DAS left -> rotate CCW or CW.

Also, I noticed that due to the latency in PPT, sometimes, DAS left and rotate to 'wall-bounce/wall-kick' is slower than say, rotate -> tab left -> tab left

So I'm kind of very conflicted now, and am on a verge of a mental breakdown, and was pondering if I should learn Finesse for PPT.

I know Blink doesn't use finesse in PPT, and ironically, for some players with perfect finesse, like z2sam, using finesse actually makes them slower in PPT. Amemiya, I know from a video on Finesse he posted on youtube, does know some kind of Finesse.

But on the other hand, learning Finesse makes one more precise and confident, having less hesitance in laying down blocks, which may make one 'faster' in the long-run.

What do you guys think?

[XaeL]

Galactoid, you need to note that there are more advanced forms of finesse than are in the wiki.

For example, the wiki specifically states 60hz Fast Das.
PPT has slow DAS, and 30hz.

This means there are several solutions to certain configurations.
Tap Tap vs Das -> Tapback on left wall is a frequently encountered example

[Galactoid]

Galactoid, you need to note that there are more advanced forms of finesse than are in the wiki.

For example, the wiki specifically states 60hz Fast Das.
PPT has slow DAS, and 30hz.

This means there are several solutions to certain configurations.
Tap Tap vs Das -> Tapback on left wall is a frequently encountered example

Thanks!

I will look into that!

[caffeine]

Official Tetris games where 2-step is optimal are few and far between, unfortunately. It's mainly because they tend to use 2 or 3 ARR frames, but also high DAS.

Okey_dokey made a good post about the subject already.

The same thing happened to me when Tetris Splash came out. I had spent a lot of time and effort learning 2-step so that I could have an advantage. Then Tetris Splash came out with slow AR and DAS, and I was the one at a disadvantage because I didn't triple tap. It was very frustrating, and I understand completely where you're coming from.

What I did for Puyo Tetris is to create a formal system tailored to PPT's timings. You can do the same. Do multiple trials for different ways of getting to placements. Try the 2-step way and see how fast it is, and then try doing a "tap tap" instead of a "das to wall and move back."

Iirc, I eliminated all das-backs on the left wall. Also, many das-wall-rotates became rotate-tap-taps (for example, the I-piece). I think tapping three times to the right took priority over das-backs, but never tapping 4 times.

[Galactoid]

Official Tetris games where 2-step is optimal are few and far between, unfortunately. It's mainly because they tend to use 2 or 3 ARR frames, but also high DAS.

Okey_dokey made a good post about the subject already.

The same thing happened to me when Tetris Splash came out. I had spent a lot of time and effort learning 2-step so that I could have an advantage. Then Tetris Splash came out with slow AR and DAS, and I was the one at a disadvantage because I didn't triple tap. It was very frustrating, and I understand completely where you're coming from.

What I did for Puyo Tetris is to create a formal system tailored to PPT's timings. You can do the same. Do multiple trials for different ways of getting to placements. Try the 2-step way and see how fast it is, and then try doing a "tap tap" instead of a "das to wall and move back."

Iirc, I eliminated all das-backs on the left wall. Also, many das-wall-rotates became rotate-tap-taps (for example, the I-piece). I think tapping three times to the right took priority over das-backs, but never tapping 4 times.

Thanks!

I may just stick to standard finesse. Triple tapping will take a severe toll on my left thumb since I play with a controller lol. I'm worried of fatigue.

Yes, you are right, I noticed that too - many of the 'wall-kicks' to the left are slow. From what I've seen:

1) S and Zs are faster if you tab left, tab left, rotate CW/CCW

2) I is faster if you tab left, tab left, rotate. Same for tab right, tab right, rotate.

3) But I think for L and Js, wall kick is still faster

4) No changes to T or O

5) Skill stop is too inconsistent due to input lag in PPT

6) The question remains as to L, J and T to the right -> is tab right -> tab right -> tab right rotate faster than DAS right -> wall kick -> tab left

That's pretty much what I've noticed, after looking through all of the movement finesse entries on hard drop wiki.

[Okey_Dokey]

Is learning Finesse ever efficient in Puyo Puyo Tetris? Yes, it is. Is 2-step finesse efficient? Probably not.

Okey_dokey made a good post about the subject already.

Note that I wrote this comment after my PS4 experience (and I just bought the PS4 for PPT). What I thought was very slow autorepetition was probably slow response time - either the PS4 received my inputs some frames too late or the screen output was delayed (or both). When I played on PC, it felt much smoother (PC master race).

To correct a false statement: DAS (Delayed AutoShift) is 10 frames in Puyo Puyo Tetris. If you press down Left / Right after a piece spawns and keep pressing Left / Right, then the piece makes the second sidewards step 10 frames after the first one. I checked a PS4 video from Blink (to see if it is also 10 frames there), and with Blink's playstyle it's been less than 10 frames in most cases. There's some spawn delay in Puyo Puyo Tetris (the ghost piece of the next piece shows up 6 frames after the placement of the previous piece, and the piece will begin to move 2 frames later) and during that period DAS can be charged a little (not the whole 6 frames though). So, if you want to use autorepetition, press Left/Right as soon as possible. However, if you want to tap, then you have to wait until the spawn delay is finished. This charging can make autorepetition more efficient than fast tapping.

DAS preservation is especially efficient. DAS preservation means that the auto repetition of the previous piece is used for the next piece. For example, if you want to move two consecutive pieces to the right wall, then just keep pressing Right while harddropping. In this case, DAS would be completely charged for the second piece, so the length of DAS plays no role - only ARR / AutoRepeatRate will play a role and that is fast in PPT. However, DAS preservation is hard to do. I can only gain a significant speed boost through DAS preservation when I stack Tetrises on the side (and even then I am not fast enough to beat the best Puyo players).

I don't know the most efficient finesse for PPT. One interesting thing in PPT is the unique "double charge" behaviour which rewards pressing both Left and Right at the same time. I (and 99 % of the players out there) won't bother to learn it though (my interest in playing PPT is limited). I have made a post about "double charge" here. XaeL / Xeal has written some short Wiki articles and he also made a video.

Puyo Puyo Tetris movement intricacies
DAS Optimization

[XaeL]

Yes, you are right, I noticed that too - many of the 'wall-kicks' to the left are slow. From what I've seen:

1) S and Zs are faster if you tab left, tab left, rotate CW/CCW

2) I is faster if you tab left, tab left, rotate. Same for tab right, tab right, rotate.

3) But I think for L and Js, wall kick is still faster

4) No changes to T or O

5) Skill stop is too inconsistent due to input lag in PPT

6) The question remains as to L, J and T to the right -> is tab right -> tab right -> tab right rotate faster than DAS right -> wall kick -> tab left

That's pretty much what I've noticed, after looking through all of the movement finesse entries on hard drop wiki.

In slow Das/ARR games, there are far more variables at play here. It's not so simple to just have a 1 to 1 mapping of "piece goes here, always input x".

For puyo puyo tetris and games like it, i would suggest the following sliding scale for movement intricacy:

Lul-whut:
Rotate with one direction, only das to wall.

Beginner:
1 mapping for placement / key sequence. key factors:

• Only one mapping per piece placement.
• Reset DAS to neutral after each piece.
• You are slow so you are probably not inputting until AFTER spawn delay
• PPT das to left wall always takes DAS(6 + 3 or 4 (slots)*2 = 14 frames.
• Tapping twice takes minimum 4 frames, but realistically around 10-14 frames.
• So tapping should be faster to the left in a lot of cases.

Beginner 2:
DAS during line clear delay

• Same as above, but for pieces that are near walls, DAS whenever you are placing it straight after line clear
• Due to line clear delay > DAS charge time, you will definitely save time on lots of wall inputs.
• Also learn DAS tapback in other clients that use 60hz or instant ARR and fast das

Intermediate:
Keeping DAS Charged
This stage allows simple carry over of DAS between pieces.

• two pieces against right wall -> hold das and place both pieces. Do not reset to neutral.
• This is the level most western pros are at - e.g. Microblizz, blink etc.
• Das interruption -> Charge right, place piece. Keeping Das charged, das 2nd piece to rightwall, keep right held, tap left and harddrop. Release left - 3rd piece to right wall since right das is still charged.
• Also learning full 2-step finesse on faster clients.

Advanced:
Pipelining

• Forward Pipelining (tap and hold, harddrop before das is charged, next piece has das charge)
• Tapback pipelining (when tap-backing off a wall, keep button held to charge next piece)
• All of the japanese sprint record holders for PPT (sub 37~) use this method.

To be fair, all the advanced stuff is only really useful in slow games like PPT. It is still useful in things like jstris (still saves time), but the marginal benefit is much smaller.
Note that once you learn the next level, you still use the previous level when input is faster. I.e. sometimes its faster to tap left twice, other times, its faster to pre-charge das on previous piece, and then tapback on this piece (while still holding left das charged), so that you can place the next piece on the left quickly.