NullpoMino's All Spins

[Dimentio]

Did anybody notice that Nullpomino's garbage send and spins are not setup right? I mean first of all the code doesn't check the last piece at all for the spins, meaning an s-spin worth the same as a t-spin. Also the PC Garbage is set to 6 instead of 10. Now don't get me wrong but I think they did this because you could send 17 lines as an opening.


As you can see here
[fumen]v110@7eMWgILeBJdBCZBNfBXgBkVB5cBs2ckGPmATEzPEJG?98AwT1JEpoo2AFbmzBSD88Aw3K6BFbEcEyQVTAylAAAOsqA?AeRPyAi7ESAS4WtAzI2JEFbEwCyuVDEloo2AFbGLBFbslAF?bUzBSD88Awg78AwZcRAylAAAAwNAA[/fumen]


Now to me, the way is it make All-Spins too OP because then this fumen below show tst being useless to do

[fumen]v110@7eB2cIlaBrdA3obA3obA3hbH3ibF3jbF3jbF3jbF3p?bAwNsApO98AwyrhEM388AQzUTASoVNEy488AwHvuDp19dDO?P98AQurTASYBNE7eEugqoA08taEFb82Du92rDB388AQzBUA?S4fgEMzdNEFL8YEFbEBEv7tkDGGPHAFbWEBFr4AAMmqAAEL?PzAFbuHBFrwRASYdME0ikTASICvDFb8UBFbEBEJGlaEFb82?Du92rDB388AwWXTAS4xAAAwNAA[/fumen]


I am really used to all-spins so when I play netplay with all-spins I find this kinda too OP. In the original guideline like tetris deluxe where all-spins are counted(except I), they doesn't send the same as a t-spin even in marathon you get less score for doing a s-spin than a t-spin. Playing without them make me seems weak because I can't use my strategy.
What Tetris deluxe does is simply divide the garbage send if the last piece is not a T, so in the fumen above with the PC if 180 was even legit it would be the same as a tetris PC.

So why didn't they do that? Maybe nullpomino's code is too old? I don't know, to fix that they could simply use the lastpiece variable from Game Engine. In any case when I added voices to nullpo, I had to add a way to separate the spins and it wasn't that hard.

[myndzi]

Nullpomino's all-spins mode is defaulted to Immobile spin detection and KoS-like garbage rules, with some exceptions. It is not based on guideline games.

There is a 3-point implementation, but it's uncertain how accurate it is. Its garbage table is mostly arbitrary, as far as I know. Spin mini singles do not send at all.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody who's considered it has preferred 3-point all-spins, nor have they preferred the nerfed all-spin attacks of games like TPD where garbage is 1:1. Nullpomino could use a bit less garbage, but if all-spins aren't equivalent to T-spins in attack value, players will not really bother with them; they are fast enough and flexible enough with T's alone that it's actually a detriment to go for alternate spins.

In general, it is always more efficient to do smaller spins because of back-to-back being a fixed bonus. On top of that, a T-spin triple clears 3 lines, while two spin doubles clear 4 lines. It makes plenty of sense for your alternate knock-down to send more than a T-spin triple.

I'm reasonably certain that PC is +6 in nullpo because it's additive with spins; that is, a spin double sends +4 and the PC adds +6, leaving you with +10.

I don't think anybody will cry for the lack of spin attacks that aren't actually spins, particularly if you're talking about both those AND 180 lolkicks.

[Dimentio]

I see, well I myself started playing tetris with a game who had all-spins so I just grow used to it, using L-spins as a b2b starter and such, I have many tricks to get b2b and send many lines.

Of course if nullpomino were to be nerfed I would stop making s-spins by myself and other spins since it wouldn't be as strong. I would kinda play like how I play on console games but with a keyboard.

Still I think if the spins weren't as strong, people would maybe like all-spins more?
I've noticed that on netplay all-spins rooms doesn't seems to be liked really much.

[StS]

I feel like many people don't like allspins because they're not used to it, rather than because it's not viable.

[Sisu]

dory allspins best mode eva  

[attachmentid=542]

[zaphod77]

The reason that allspins has nerfed garbage in the current guideline is because t-spins can't perfect clear, and perfect clear scores 10 extra lines, so they don't want people busting out 10 piece 15 line openings.  with 180 rotation, it's even worse, as shown above.

I believe nullpo's 4 point system is accurate to amagami tetris, which DID reward all spins equally, and detected I-spins.

However, amagami is out of date, and tetris party deluxe is current still i think.

So i think it's proper to fix the tables for 4 point.  but that's just my opinion.

[StS]

Does spin garbage actually stack with PC garbage, though? It doesn't in KoS, but I've never bothered to test it in Nullpo.

[Dimentio]

Does spin garbage actually stack with PC garbage, though? It doesn't in KoS, but I've never bothered to test it in Nullpo.

What do you mean by stack? It's always current move + PC for example if I manage to finish with a combo 8 + b2b tetris, it will send 19 lines.

[myndzi]

What do you mean by stack? It's always current move + PC for example if I manage to finish with a combo 8 + b2b tetris, it will send 19 lines.

That's not always the case. I perfect clear garbage may stack in some games, but that doesn't mean it *must* do so.

You can make a perfect clear with a Tetris, and Tetrises aren't nerfed are they? Nerfing 4/7 of your attack tools for a special case doesn't seem very reasonable, especially when it's a problem that has a canonical solution.

I'd expect allspins send less in TPD etc. simply because allspins add so much attack potential that the game would be too garbage heavy if they sent equally. Recall that TPD and other guideline games aren't focused on the hardcore elite, but Nullpomino kind of is.

[Dimentio]

That's not always the case. I perfect clear garbage may stack in some games, but that doesn't mean it *must* do so.

You can make a perfect clear with a Tetris, and Tetrises aren't nerfed are they? Nerfing 4/7 of your attack tools for a special case doesn't seem very reasonable, especially when it's a problem that has a canonical solution.

I'd expect allspins send less in TPD etc. simply because allspins add so much attack potential that the game would be too garbage heavy if they sent equally. Recall that TPD and other guideline games aren't focused on the hardcore elite, but Nullpomino kind of is.

I don't know much of the others games, most of the games I tried had all-spins and this way of working. Sorry about that then but I wish there would be a game like that on computer since I started keyboard stuff. I'm pretty sure adding another selection in nullpomino for that kind of all-spins wouldn't be too hard. It seems the nullpomino code google site is kind of dead since 2012, that's saddening.

[myndzi]

most of the games I tried

So that would be.... Tetris Party Deluxe and ...?

[Dimentio]

So that would be.... Tetris Party Deluxe and ...?

Tetris Party Deluxe, Tetris Axis and Tetris Party Deluxe Wii. I tried mostly if there was controller.

[myndzi]

Yeah, that's like two games. (I wouldn't count TPD and TPD Wii as different games!) I'm not sure if that's enough to establish a canonical implementation yet, but since Axis is the latest one on 3DS and the successor to TPD, it kind of looks that way. I wouldn't get too attached to the current system as a 'stable api' though, T-spins alone have gone through many variations over time.

It might be worth emulating this system, but Nullpomino doesn't have a very flexible means of configuring garbage quantities yet, and development on it has kind of scattered to all directions when it happens at all. Don't hold your breath

I recommend getting used to the fact that Tetris games vary constantly, and adapt your play style to the game you're playing rather than expecting the game you're playing to adapt to your play style.

[Dimentio]

Yeah, that's like two games. (I wouldn't count TPD and TPD Wii as different games!) I'm not sure if that's enough to establish a canonical implementation yet, but since Axis is the latest one on 3DS and the successor to TPD, it kind of looks that way. I wouldn't get too attached to the current system as a 'stable api' though, T-spins alone have gone through many variations over time.

It might be worth emulating this system, but Nullpomino doesn't have a very flexible means of configuring garbage quantities yet, and development on it has kind of scattered to all directions when it happens at all. Don't hold your breath

I recommend getting used to the fact that Tetris games vary constantly, and adapt your play style to the game you're playing rather than expecting the game you're playing to adapt to your play style.

Yeah Nullpomino development seems to be quite stagnant as for the current style I like it it makes what I learned even stronger I just feel people don't really like this.

[myndzi]

Most people prefer what they're best at, but it can be quite rewarding to get good at many things