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> Puyo Puyo Tetris Data and Discussion, Tetris to Puyo damage conversion and other little tidbits
Kiyobi
post Feb 6 2014, 01:02 AM
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Hello fellow Tetris players!

I was invited by Sisu to share some information I've researched regarding how Tetris VS Puyo Puyo works in Puyo Puyo Tetris. As a big fan of both Tetris and Puyo, I'd love to give some information and share my initial impression on the asymmetrical puzzle battle of my dreams =w=
(especially since Puyo Tetris gets released today in Japan!)

As a disclaimer, all of this is observed from the demo and some assumptions are made. Things may change from demo to the final version and I may be wrong in some of these assumptions.

Most of the garbage conversion (plus Combo damage bonuses and stuff) can be found at this spreadsheet I have here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key...amp;usp=sharing

When playing Tetris VS Puyo, a few small changes with how Tetris deals damage are made. Unlike Tetris battles, garbage is stored until the player drops a piece that doesn't clear a line, signifying the end of a Combo. This is to prevent the Tetris player from literally harassing the Puyo player to death and to allow the Tetris player to fight with big lumps of garbage akin to competitive level Puyo.

If the Puyo player sends garbage to the Tetris player, any lines cleared will be directed at countering (or in Puyo terms, "offsetting") the threatening garbage. If there is any stored garbage, it will remain stored until the Tetris player ends his Combo, at which the stored garbage will offset any threatening damage.

Another mechanic you may want to be aware of that is a mainstay in Puyo games is "Margin Time". It's basically a soft "time limit" of sorts. In traditional Puyo games, Margin Time is set to 96 seconds. Once the Margin Time is reached, the game will add a multiplier to all garbage being sent. This multiplier increases over time and will eventually make short chains deal ridiculous damage. When Margin Time is applied to Tetris, the amount of lines sent is increased, as opposed to increasing the Tetris to Puyo garbage conversion rate.

Garbage is still sent and dealt immediately in Tetris vs Tetris battles. I haven't had a chance to observe countering garbage since the CPU in the demo is very weak. Sticking Out Tongue.png

My initial impression in Tetris vs Puyo is that Tetris will have to build fast and attack hard. I mean, that's a given, yes, but it's a lot more prevalent when battling against Puyo. High level Puyo players can achieve significant damage with chains of 6 and higher. At the bare minimum, a 6 chain will send 123 Puyo garbage to Tetris. Puyo damage appears to exhibit diminishing returns when converting to Tetris garbage, but assuming we use the conversion rates that we have right now, 123 Puyo garbage rounds out to ~20-21 lines. That's a lot of lines. Error: Puyo damage does not have diminishing returns.

As a side note, Puyo Puyo Tetris has a limit on how much garbage is dealt after a piece drop. I like to call this mechanic "staggered garbage". Garbage is staggered differently for Puyo and Tetris players. Puyo players receive garbage in lumps of 30 each, as is Puyo tradition. Tetris players receive garbage in lumps of 7 lines each, which rounds out to roughly 1/3 of the playfield. For Puyo, it still means you're probably KO'd because the trash piles on top, blocking access to the chain you were building. For Tetris though, we have a (slim) chance to fight back if we have a B2B Tetris or Combo setup that we can fire. Thanks to staggered garbage, Tetris players have the ability to interrupt the flow of incoming garbage and fight back; a luxury that Puyo players can't enjoy. This assumption from the demo is incorrect. See later posts regarding the matchup.

The best single attack I could do in the demo was 27 lines, which is 183 Puyo garbage. To compare, that is a little less than a bare minimum Puyo 7 chain, which is "just decent" in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't take a good Puyo player a lot of time to set up a 7 chain. Let's just be glad Puyo Puyo does not have hard drop. =w=

If you want to fight with big hits like the Puyo players, you'll have to be good with Combos. T-Spin line clears should help too.

I'm incredibly hype for this game, and I hope to share more info once I finally get my hands on the game!

(also is it okay to plug a puyo vs tetris stream that's going to happen soon)
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Kitaru
post Feb 6 2014, 04:31 AM
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I came across your Twitch stream when randomly searching around on Twitter and was thinking of reaching out to you as well -- Sisu is on the ball once again, haha. Smile.png

I noticed that you were using some 2 wide combos without residue to do your research -- you might want to shoot for a 4 wide center gap to get up into that 10~20 Ren area more readily. Given that Tetris has a way to very quickly and safely build a large combo and Puyo is lacking hard drop, I'm kind of worried about how the dynamics will play out.

(EDIT: Here are a couple of threads about 4w combos: http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2163 & http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3832)

In Tetris vs. Tetris, do we know if the Change On Attack rule from TOJ was preserved? With COA, the hole changes with each attack segment -- a tetris later followed by a back-to-back tetris is +4 then +5, and this pattern is expressed in the garbage columns. If Margin Time applies to TvT, does that mean that a tetris will send an even longer column of garbage, or is there a different segmentation rule that applies? Also, does it seem like COA applies in any way to Puyo vs. Tetris, (i.e., does each step in the chain get its own segment, making the early garbage received messy harrass followed by higher volume clean garbage) or does it seem like there is a randomization factor applied?


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Kiyobi
post Feb 6 2014, 07:17 AM
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COA doesn't seem to be in effect in Tetris v Tetris. I did a B2B Tetris Combo (4 + (5+1 bonus) ) and the garbage pattern I sent was 4, 1, 3, 1. I double checked to see if that 4 was a fluke, and a single Tetris sent a pattern of 1, 3.

Also COA does not apply in Tetris v Puyo because of the nature of how Puyo garbage is dealt. As mentioned in the initial post, Puyo garbage drops at most 30 at a time, which is the equivalent of a red rock on the Puyo garbage meter.


On another note, hope you enjoyed my stream! Grin.png Keep an eye out for a big Tetris v Puyo battle soon~
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Kitaru
post Feb 6 2014, 08:21 AM
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Ah OK, if there is no Change On Attack in TvT, then I wouldn't expect it in PvT either. It'd also be pretty gnarly with the red rock exchange rate -- 10~11 segment? Here, have a couple tetrises back.

Thanks for the info! Good luck in your battle. :3


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caffeine
post Feb 6 2014, 05:32 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for posting this!

QUOTE(Kiyobi @ Feb 5 2014, 07:02 PM) *

When playing Tetris VS Puyo, a few small changes with how Tetris deals damage are made. Unlike Tetris battles, garbage is stored until the player drops a piece that doesn't clear a line, signifying the end of a Combo. This is to prevent the Tetris player from literally harassing the Puyo player to death and to allow the Tetris player to fight with big lumps of garbage akin to competitive level Puyo.

This has actually been in Tetris games for several years now.

I did a quick and dirty frame analysis of some Youtube videos, and it looks like this game uses 12/60 seconds of DAS and 2/60 seconds of autorepeat. I plugged this into Nullpo to do what I call a "2-step check." Basically, I perform operation 2b for the Z-piece a number of times. First I do it in 2-step fashion, then I do it by rotating and tapping. If I can do it with 2-step at least as fast as I can by simply tapping, then that means the game is good for 2-step. With these settings, however, tapping was about twice as fast. That means it's going to be faster to tap tap tap in this game. (Which means I, for example, would need to unlearn some things to play optimally.) Crying.png Crying.png Crying.png

By the way, when it comes to gsheets, round(x,2) is your friend!
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Integration
post Feb 6 2014, 05:59 PM
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So in a TvT match a Tetris sends as messy garbage as a Double-Double-Single combo (chances that garbage hole/column changes are the same in both instances)?

Uhm I don't know Puyo Puyo rules pretty well. Can you tell us how many Puyo Puyo Trash a 2/3/4/5/6/7 Puyo Puyo combo sends? I noticed that in TvP match a Double (resp. 2 consecutive Singles) cancels a Puyo 2 combo. That's a bit weird because a Double (or a Single-Single combo) is really easy to do in Tetris. Are there further ways to send Puyo trash? For example do you send trash if you clear 8 equally colored bubbles at the same time?

Do you know how many garbage the line clears send (Double, Triple, Tetris, T-Spin Mini, T-Spin Single, T-Spin Double, T-Spin Triple, with and without back-to-back bonus)? Is there a small bonus if you make All-Spins (spins with other pieces than the T piece)?

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Kitaru
post Feb 6 2014, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Feb 6 2014, 09:32 AM) *

Interesting. Thanks for posting this!
This has actually been in Tetris games for several years now.
You misunderstand. The attack isn't added to the opponent's queue until you stop the chain.

QUOTE(caffeine @ Feb 6 2014, 09:32 AM) *
If I can do it with 2-step at least as fast as I can by simply tapping, then that means the game is good for 2-step. With these settings, however, tapping was about twice as fast. That means it's going to be faster to tap tap tap in this game. (Which means I, for example, would need to unlearn some things to play optimally.) Crying.png Crying.png Crying.png
12/2 shouldn't be too bad. You should still more or less follow 2-step, especially on a d-pad.

QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 6 2014, 09:59 AM) *
I noticed that in TvP match a Double (resp. 2 consecutive Singles) cancels a Puyo 2 combo.
That's not too weird. A 2 chain is absolutely tiny.

QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 6 2014, 09:59 AM) *
That's a bit weird because a Double (or a Single-Single combo) is really easy to do in Tetris. Are there further ways to send Puyo trash? For example do you send trash if you clear 8 equally colored bubbles at the same time?
Setting up for one big clear also works -- there is a technique/setup called Hellfire where you set up a 2 chain that clears a very large number of puyo and sends a lot of early harass.

You can use http://puyonexus.net/chainsim/ to see how much value different Puyo attacks will have.


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Kiyobi
post Feb 6 2014, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 6 2014, 05:59 PM) *

Do you know how many garbage the line clears send (Double, Triple, Tetris, T-Spin Mini, T-Spin Single, T-Spin Double, T-Spin Triple, with and without back-to-back bonus)? Is there a small bonus if you make All-Spins (spins with other pieces than the T piece)?


Doubles send 1
Triples send 2
Tetris sends 4
B2B Tetris sends 5

I still have yet to grasp T-Spins, so I don't have data on that yet. No time like the present, I suppose! =w=

QUOTE(caffeine @ Feb 6 2014, 05:32 PM) *

By the way, when it comes to gsheets, round(x,2) is your friend!

Added in, thanks~ =w=

EDIT:
I mashed my way to doing T-Spins, here's some data.
T-Spin Mini Single - nothing (good day sir)
T-Spin Single - 2 lines
T-Spin Double - 4 lines
T-Spin Triple - 6 lines
Back to Back T-Spins - +1 line (links to Nicovideo source)

The game does not recognize All Spins.

You can also find this information in the spreadsheet in the very elusive second page.

Just noticed this:
QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 6 2014, 05:59 PM) *

So in a TvT match a Tetris sends as messy garbage as a Double-Double-Single combo (chances that garbage hole/column changes are the same in both instances)?

Uhm I don't know Puyo Puyo rules pretty well. Can you tell us how many Puyo Puyo Trash a 2/3/4/5/6/7 Puyo Puyo combo sends? I noticed that in TvP match a Double (resp. 2 consecutive Singles) cancels a Puyo 2 combo. That's a bit weird because a Double (or a Single-Single combo) is really easy to do in Tetris. Are there further ways to send Puyo trash? For example do you send trash if you clear 8 equally colored bubbles at the same time?

Yes, Double-Double-Single can send as messy garbage as a Tetris.

Puyo chain damage isn't as easy to determine because of how flexible Puyo is. When I say "bare chain", I mean a chain that only meets the minimum requirements: 4 Puyo per chain step. In game, it isn't uncommon for a chain step to clear a group of 5 or more. When this happens, you get a little more garbage because of the increased value of the chain step. In oversimplified terms, the value of the chain step is (Size of the group x Chain step). This also means a bigger group cleared in higher chain steps yields a bigger reward than in earlier chain steps. Please use the Chain Simulator link that Kitaru provided and experiment!

DOUBLE EDIT
Also I discovered errors that contradict earlier claims:
--Tetris garbage is not dealt by staggered "red rocks". They're dealt 7 lines at a time.
--Puyo garbage does not exhibit diminishing returns. (Uh oh.) This was also observed when observing how staggered garbage was dealt to the Tetris player.
--I'm also coining the concept of staggered garbage =w=

I'll edit the initial post to correct these errors.
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Integration
post Feb 7 2014, 06:22 AM
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Thanks. I have a last question: Does a T-Spin Mini start a back to back chain (this means if you do a T Mini and and your next line clear is a Tetris or T-Spin, does it yield back to back bonus)?
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Kiyobi
post Feb 7 2014, 06:48 AM
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I'm struggling on building something to test this out, can I get a sample?
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kaibutsu
post Feb 7 2014, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 7 2014, 06:22 AM) *

Thanks. I have a last question: Does a T-Spin Mini start a back to back chain (this means if you do a T Mini and and your next line clear is a Tetris or T-Spin, does it yield back to back bonus)?


So I've been playing the demo of this game, and as far I can tell, a T-spin mini does start the back-to-back bonus but doesn't send any lines/trash. However, if you already have the back-to-back bonus, a T-spin mini will send 1 line or 4 puyo trash. So T-spin minis are sort of a cross between TF and TOJ rules.

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caffeine
post Feb 7 2014, 01:45 PM
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Can we get some more intel on the garbage randomizer for Tetris vs. Tetris?
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Blitz
post Feb 7 2014, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(Integration @ Feb 7 2014, 06:22 AM) *

Thanks. I have a last question: Does a T-Spin Mini start a back to back chain (this means if you do a T Mini and and your next line clear is a Tetris or T-Spin, does it yield back to back bonus)?


QUOTE(Kiyobi @ Feb 7 2014, 06:48 AM) *

I'm struggling on building something to test this out, can I get a sample?


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Integration
post Feb 7 2014, 07:15 PM
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Oh I made the misstake to use the word 'chain' which could be misinterpreted in the context of Puyo Puyo. I just meant: do a T-Spin Mini, stack up, do a Tetris. Not a T Spin combo or whatever, although this is possible with T-Spin Minis.

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Gangnam
post Feb 7 2014, 07:55 PM
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흥미롭다.


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