Quote from: myndzi
As for swearing, the swear filter was in fact removed  from the forum. Rosti's post didn't attack anybody, and I am reasonably certain that it was meant and taken in good humor. I had to make a subjective judgement, which I did.

I mentioned swearing as a joke, but i think it's a good moment to comment on this.

That's what i don't understand. So... you can swear, but making some awkward sexual jokes is wrong. Why?
I heard before, that we are concerned about the younger users of harddrop, which is convincing. If that's the case, then i don't understand why to allow swearing in "CERTAIN" situations. Is showing the youngsters swear words a good example? No.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want this to become a place where you get banned for using one "f" word, but i got banned off the shoutbox for saying (afair) "wet panties". And it WAS a joke. Just draw the line and stop shifting it.

Again, im not hating on Rosti or you and your rules, I just don't understand the goal behind your actions.

It's a fair point, but the difference is between profanity and sexual content. I don't think that profanity should be (over)used, but I've also seen what comes of trying to draw a line on what counts as profanity. It's also true that most of the time that profanity is offensive, it's not the words themselves but what they are saying.

Sexual content, on the other hand, can make people uncomfortable. I'm not taking a 'protect the children' stance here, I am responding directly to a voiced concern from multiple members. Uncomfortable is different from offended; offended people are inclined to respond and uncomfortable people are inclined to leave.

Anyway, I did think it was worth discussing which is why I responded. The shoutbox thing was the briefest slap, it was just a reminder that I was paying attention and willing to act. I wouldn't be lying if I said that you were judged slightly more aggressively because of your history. I do notice that you have adjusted accordingly, and for that I thank you

Finally, as I mentioned somewhere else, the shoutbox is more front-facing and as a result I'm going to be rather stricter there than the 79th page of a tournament match report thread.

One other thing. I think I said it on the shoutbox a couple times, but moderation is inherently subjective. You can't "pick a line" and stick to it, you can only pick a goal and strive for it. When you pick a line, then people quibble with you over details instead of just accepting the moderator's judgement (see: "New Harddrop Agreement"). I am quite purposefully avoiding this conundrum, and I have no intention to try to be "fair and balanced" in the sense of who got what punishment for what action and why should I/he/they get/not get this/that because etc.

I posted what I want to see, and that's what I will try to hold to. If you're wondering if I'm going to come down on you or not, you're too far into the gray area.

You are always welcome to bring concerns or complaints to me in a mature way, in private or in public, but I will not tolerate a lax attitude towards moderation itself. A good example is Paradox's post in this thread, which I deleted. I intend to be very strict on this count: moderation should not be taken lightly; when this is the case it can be used more sparingly. So long as people think that they can take passes at moderation and get away with it, they aren't respecting it.

It is a difficult point for me that I am probably the only one taking moderator action, so please note that I am intentionally distinguishing between moderation and myself personally. I won't be banning people who disagree with me, or even don't like me, but I will be acting on posts that do not bring their concerns about moderation decisions in a mature and reasonable manner.

Since someone has brought up the topic I'd have to say that I'm completely against allowing swearing anywhere on HD. It should be censored by default. Any content whatsoever that isn't appropriate for certain ages should not be allowed. I was a bit surprised to see swearing all over the OP of this thread & top of that created by a moderator. I think these guidelines should be revised and a new thread created. I understand that certain people don't mind swearing but this should be an environment for everyone.

This thread isn't for involved discussion. I am not going to implement policies based on hypotheticals. Don't get offended on behalf of some other person/group.

Edit: by involved, I mean that I don't want to fill it up with back-and-forth. It is a good place to post your questions or concerns and for me to answer them.

I kinda agree with paradox. Swearing makes people uncomfortable, and uncomfortable people leave (a phrase you yourself have used to back up your own case on sexual stuff on the shoutbox). I know many people on HD care (I personally don't care) and get uncomfortable when people swear.

I just don't know why this discussion is happening in the first place. The filter was fine as it was. It's the presence of swear words which makes many people feel uncomfortable (not naming names, but a good few regular HD users). Insults are just one side of it. If you wanna write your views in an ugly way, then get used to your ugly words being filtered.

Quote from: gif
If that's the case, then i don't understand why to allow swearing in "CERTAIN" situations.

Because language is almost entirely based around context. I have no idea what you were banned for, or the situation around it, but how offensive people find words is almost completely based around how they are used and the nature of the conversation without the words themselves being particularly important (unless you're either extremely religious and genuinely think that blasphemy is a big deal, or have some sort of strict upbringing where saying "fuck" is the equivalent of slapping them in the face).

How offensive words are perceived is based largely around culture and upbringing - I was brought up in an area of the world where people don't bat an eyelid at pretty much any swearword other than "c*nt". If everyone says "fuck" every other sentence, then it stops becoming something that people actually care about. As a result I tend to swear a lot, because in the north-west of England that's what people do, and nobody actually gives a toss about it or makes a big deal over it, so I've never really had the need to censor myself. Obviously there are certain formal situations where I'll go out of my way to not swear but I'd hardly class HardDrop as one of those situations.

For people who don't get their knickers in a twist over people using the word "fuck" just because you used it, context is the most important thing. There's a huge difference in offence between "ah fuck, that was fucking silly of me" and "shut the fuck up you retarded fucking c*nt". Both sentences use swearing, but one is fairly neutral and if anything slightly self-deprecating, whilst the other clearly has the intent to be offensive. To go back to what I said in this thread, I'd regard anyone who gets offended by me saying "absolutely fucking nothing" as being pretty uptight, because the swearing is neutral and clearly not intended to be offensive to anyone. The "fucking" just adds emphasis to the "nothing" - it has no sexual or derogatory connotations to it, and other than the fact that it has the letters 'f', 'u', 'c' and 'k' in that order, there's no reason for people to be offended.

And to flip the argument the other way, it's just as easy to be mean, spiteful and offensive towards someone without using swearwords. The individual words themselves are largely irrelevant compared to the overall context and intent of the post.

Really, this is the internet. This isn't an official Tetris forum, and anyone who has managed to find their way here has probably seen and read worse things. If you're going to go for the properly family-friendly route then you've got to go the full way and warn/ban people for swearing (censorship is genuinely completely retarded IMO, unless it wholesale changes the word itself rather than just ****ing stuff out), or making any sort of nasty, offensive, rude post, or any other thing you probably wouldn't say in front of your mother. Which would probably make the forum suck and incredibly tedious to moderate properly.

Most people here are old enough to be beyond the PG rating and to be able to see swearwords uncensored without it being liable to corrupt their mind. And if there are people here that are genuinely prude enough to be deeply, seriously offended any time anyone uses the word "fuck" simply because they've used the word "fuck", regardless of context, then I think they should realise that it's 2012 and the real world is like that these days (but hey, they were probably brought up to think that way, so it's not entirely their fault). Plus there's almost certainly far more offensive things on this forum than a couple of undirected swearwords in a post.

Quote from: Paul676
The filter was fine as it was. It's the presence of swear words which makes many people feel uncomfortable (not naming names, but a good few regular HD users). Insults are just one side of it. If you wanna write your views in an ugly way, then get used to your ugly words being filtered.

So if if there's a bit in a post that says.

"For fucks' sake, that's such a dumb fucking opinion. You need to think shit through before you open your damn mouth"

Compared to:

"For f***s' sake, that's such a dumb f***ing opinion. You need to think s*** through before you open your d*** mouth"

You actually see a difference? You think people would actually find the first sentence to be horrible and make them leave the forum yet the second one with the filter is totally OK and fine with them?

It's not the spelling of a word that's offensive - it's the context and intent. A filter makes absolutely no difference because all it does is screw with the spelling and leave the core intent and context completely unaltered. If anything the asterisks actually serve to highlight the swearwords because you can't scan over them as easily.

Rosti, I don't care about seeing swear words, and for me it's context that matters... but others do care about seeing fuck instead of f***. If it doesn't affect us negatively seeing f*** instead of fuck but does affect them negatively seeing fuck instead if f***, then really there shouldn't be an argument against it.

Too sweary;dr

People are different. For some it's context, for others it's not. Cater for both.

Myndzi already pointed out that this isn't for discussion. AKA his rules end of story

Quote from: Paul676
for me it's context that matters... but others do care about seeing fuck instead of f***

Then how about those people speak up saying so?

Basing how the majority are forced to act or experience something on how a minority think is shaky ground already, but when the minority is hypothetical then it's pushing things too far imo. If there really are people out there who hold the opinion of, to quote South Park, "horrific, deplorable violence is OK, as long as people don't say any naughty words", then that's their own opinion to express. Getting offended on other people's behalf is how stupid over-politically-correct stuff comes about.

And for the record I only thought that the filter should be not on by default, or at least be something that can be turned off, and should be cleaned up (in roughly that order of preference). I think it's a totally stupid idea but when I suggested it not be mandatory I never thought or intended for it to be removed complete.y

What I said was [the other thread] wasn't for discussion, because I wanted to ensure it remains short enough for people to browse through and get the information they should from it. I'm going to split this into another thread.

Edit: Rosti has pretty much covered what I was going to say, excepting one thing:

Cussing is just not classy. If you do it a lot, you will not be seen as classy, and if it's common in a community that community will not be seen as classy. I don't think we have a "swearing problem" and therefore I don't intend to go out of my way to crack down on it. I understand that other people may have another opinion, but so far the only people who have contributed an opinion are, as Rosti (and I, earlier) pointed out, talking about hypothetical "other people".

If swearing makes you personally who are reading this uncomfortable and you would like to see the swear filter enacted, then please tell us so and why. If you're okay with the fact that people say mean words sometimes, you're welcome to contribute too. If all you have to say is "some people might be offended" then don't bother.

Alternately, you may contact me in private, which is fine. Basically, cite your sources.

Yeah, I'm totally fine with people claiming that they're personally very uncomfortable with people who swear excessively; I just don't like people being "well I'm completely fine with it but I guess there are maybe probably people who aren't".

Also I don't doubt that there are people who would leave a community due to differences over language and such - I've seen it happen before. I just question pandering the default settings to them when they're almost certainly a small minority, and really I'd expect the issues to go further than people merely using the words.

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Quote from: Rosti_LFC
I just question pandering the default settings to them when they're almost certainly a small minority, and really I'd expect the issues to go further than people merely using the words.

Arguably they're in the minority because of potential members who pass the site by.

That said, I don't generally have a problem with swearing. I do, however, agree that the shoutbox probably isn't the best place for it. It can make the entire community look immature and that's not really the first thing you want people to see.

I'm not really in favor of censorship, though. It's not something you should need. Speaking from experience, a filter only means you can't trust your members to behave responsibly. There should be a line. Incidental swearing = not a big deal. Swearing every other word, on the other hand? That reflects badly on you as well as the community.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable, but it does make me question why I'm still wasting time around the individual responsible. If it became a problem I don't think I would check in even at the limited level I have been.

I should clarify a little. There is still a filter in place on the shoutbox, and I agree that the shoutbox should be a little stricter than the forum. There is not a filter on the forum, and I see no reason to add one based on people who claim they don't have a problem but "someone might". I will, of course, be taking action against any individuals who have a language problem, whether or not it involves cussing; this is not carte blanche to run your potty mouth up in here for no good reason.

From my experience in forums, excess use of cursing and vulgar slang usually leads to the demise of a community. What you type is who you are on a place like this.