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> PC Problems..., Help is appreciated!
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post Jan 16 2011, 07:34 AM
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Hey. HD:
First things first, I appall having to make a new thread to ask a question. However, I have looked around and can't find anything on the topic.

I'm having issues with "B2B" Perfect Clears as my opener. I tabulated all 210 possible cases for the 3 pieces that follow each bag, and am currently assigning all possible PC-yielding sequences to one of the four arrangements that Raven specified. As such I am not having much difficulty with PC openings.

However, when I try to PC again, I find myself hopelessly lost.

The main problem I encounter is the location of the seam between the two bags. Raven's method gives me 7 pieces from one bag and 3 pieces from the next, which always come after the setup(s). But after the first PC I have 4 pieces from this second bag and 6 pieces from the third. If I look at this as a combination problem:
There are 35 possibilities for the remainder of Bag 2, given a Perfect Clear.*
There are 7 possibilities for the 6 pieces of Bag 3.
But looking at this as a permutation problem changes this:
There are now 840 possible permutations for the remainder of Bag 2, given a Perfect Clear.*
There are 2,520 possible permutations for the 6 pieces of Bag 6.
*These are technically incorrect as not all scenarios had lead to a PC, limiting the choices of the 4 pieces.

I may crunch some numbers on these tomorrow, but it's almost midnight here and I need to rest my brain.
Any tips on partitioning these pieces? I'd really like some help. I get the feeling that there's a method I don't know, but that it's hiding somewhere in the blocks.

Again, all help is appreciated.
Cordially,
?
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caffeine
post Jan 16 2011, 07:46 AM
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By "opener," do you mean for multiplayer? As soon as I see my opponent attempting PCs regularly. I'll just send a quick double. Still, I hope you figure it out.
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Question_Mark
post Jan 16 2011, 07:52 AM
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Pardon my terminology...I meant "opener" as a start for single-player modes. It fails understandably in actual Multiplayer (e.g. TF Arena), and I have actually had a great deal of success with Playing Forever for Multiplayer modes.

Heck, I just like PC's because they're flashy.
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Caithness
post Jan 16 2011, 10:00 PM
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When I saw the title of this topic I thought it was about Personal Computer problems.

Which just strengthens my belief that the standard term should be All Clear instead of Perfect Clear (or even more ridiculous, Bravo).

Also, shouldn't this be in the Strategy/Help subforum?
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SecretSalamander
post Jan 16 2011, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE(Caithness @ Jan 16 2011, 10:00 PM) *
When I saw the title of this topic I thought it was about Personal Computer problems.

me too rofl

QUOTE
Which just strengthens my belief that the standard term should be All Clear instead of Perfect Clear (or even more ridiculous, Bravo).

What happened to "all clear" anyway? Didn't TOJ or some other game use that? Or does TGM use both AC and Bravo?
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coolmaninsano
post Jan 16 2011, 11:12 PM
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When I first saw the title I was gonna post this.
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post Jan 17 2011, 01:26 AM
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I'm glad I successfully confused some people with my title!
But, seriously, this is a very difficult problem. I'm getting to the point where algorithms appear to fail me. I may have to use manual brute force calculations.
I'll never be a Noogy. Crying.png
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XaeL
post Jan 17 2011, 02:07 AM
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Watch thta pro jap guy he does like 10 in a row


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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Kitaru
post Jan 17 2011, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE(SecretSalamander @ Jan 16 2011, 03:10 PM) *

me too rofl
Or does TGM use both AC and Bravo?

This one. Bravo display text, AC medal.


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Caithness
post Jan 17 2011, 04:53 AM
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AC is what it's actually called, Bravo is just a word congratulating you for doing it. Like Excellent.
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Paradox
post Jan 17 2011, 05:48 AM
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QUOTE(Caithness @ Jan 17 2011, 04:53 AM) *

AC is what it's actually called, Bravo is just a word congratulating you for doing it. Like Excellent.


Yup and PercfectClear is just a user on HardDrop who attempts to use All Clears as a strategy. teehee.


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Kitaru
post Jan 17 2011, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE(Caithness @ Jan 16 2011, 08:53 PM) *

AC is what it's actually called, Bravo is just a word congratulating you for doing it. Like Excellent.

Given that TGM1 featured no text other than "Bravo! x4" -- the medal is a firework icon -- it is fair to call them bravos. I understand that it is just congratulatory text, but that doesn't make it any less of an accepted term.


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caffeine
post Jan 17 2011, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE(Kitaru @ Jan 17 2011, 09:52 AM) *

I understand that it is just congratulatory text, but that doesn't make it any less of an accepted term.


And if TGM doesn't legitimize "Bravo" as an accepted Tetris lingo, then PSN Tetris definitely does.
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Ravendarksky
post Jan 17 2011, 07:15 PM
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All I can really tell you is that I employ a totally different strategy for my second perfect clear.

a) I make a block.. This consists of three pieces forming as close to a 3 x 4 block as possible. If I can't make a good block I attempt step B first.
b) I make a Shape to twist around. By this point I can see the next few pieces coming and get a fair idea of what shape is needed to clear.
c) Complete the PC

Generally If i'm going fast and don't have time to think it through I'll try for setups which maximise my chances based on O and I blocks... Usually these are what lead to failure for me.

Strangely enough I always find the 3rd PC easy after the second one. I don't know if there is any science behind that though :-)

I have some replay files of me doing lots of PCs in a thread here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out:

Here it is... althoguh I can get get the downloaded files to work http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showt...=1956&st=40 >_>


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post Jan 18 2011, 02:06 AM
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First off, thanks a TON for this, Raven. Grin.png I'm glad to see someone else post on topic in this thread.
QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 17 2011, 07:15 PM) *

All I can really tell you is that I employ a totally different strategy for my second perfect clear.

a) I make a block.. This consists of three pieces forming as close to a 3 x 4 block as possible. If I can't make a good block I attempt step B first.
b) I make a Shape to twist around. By this point I can see the next few pieces coming and get a fair idea of what shape is needed to clear.
c) Complete the PC

I'll test this method out. I'm thinking a block of LJO/LJS/JLZ is ideal for forming the 3x4?
QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 17 2011, 07:15 PM) *

Generally If I'm going fast and don't have time to think it through I'll try for setups which maximize my chances based on O and I blocks... Usually these are what lead to failure for me.

Let me take a closer look into this. My first PC usually fails due to an O in the last 3 pieces, but the I usually helps the PC. This needs more research on my part...
QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 17 2011, 07:15 PM) *

Strangely enough I always find the 3rd PC easy after the second one. I don't know if there is any science behind that though :-)

I have some replay files of me doing lots of PCs in a thread here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out:

Here it is... although I can get the downloaded files to work http://harddrop.com/forums/index.php?showt...=1956&st=40 >_>

Thanks, I'll have fun ripping these apart and analyzing them...as per usual.
As to the 3rd PC being easy, I'm willing to put my money on the seam location.
PC #1: 7-3
PC #2: 4-6
PC #3: 1-7-2
The third PC is distributed across 3 bags, and has an entire 7-piece bag contained within it. There is the possibility of a duplicate in the first and last of the bags (i.e., I-JIZLOTS-IS), and the distribution is quite similar (although not identical) to the first PC. Perhaps this is why they seem so easy.
As to the next "few" PC seam locations:
#4: 5-5
#5: 2-7-1
#6: 6-4
#7: 3-7
#8: 7-3
HOWEVER, The order could be altered by a 5-piece PC. For example, one of the PC'ing 3-piece sequences for the first bag is TSZ, leaving JILO. If the first piece of the next bag (or second piece, through use of hold) is O, then another perfect clear will be possible in 5 pieces. This would skip 3 PCs ahead in the cycle:
PC #1: 7-3
PC #2: 4-1
PC #3: 6-4
PC #4: 3-7
PC #5: 7-3
I really want to test this out.
Edit: Yep, I just got a 10 piece PC-->5 piece PC. It seems quite unlikely for the 2nd PC, but it's a lot more plausible to attempt this on the 5th PC (assuming standard 10 piece PCs up to that point) or the 4th (if accomplished on the 2nd PC).
Gosh, Hold is amazing, isn't it?
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