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> best center 4 wide defense
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Which is the best center 4 wide defense?
Side-stacked 4 Wide [ 11 ] ** [20.75%]
Perfect Clear [ 13 ] ** [24.53%]
T Spin Doubles [ 11 ] ** [20.75%]
T Spin Single into T Spin Double [ 3 ] ** [5.66%]
C-Spin, DT-Cannon [ 7 ] ** [13.21%]
T Spin Double into small combo [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Other [ 8 ] ** [15.09%]
Total Votes: 53
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Integration
post Nov 12 2013, 06:27 PM
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Since chris4wide is again in the top 16 of TTO, I have to ask that question: What do you think is the best defense against a mid-stacked 4 wide? If you don't know what I mean, I am talking about this:



Some of my thoughts:

A side-stacked 4 wide is easier to execute than it's mid-stacked counterpart. So it might be a good choice, even if you are worse in 4 widing than your opponent. Your opponent might stack a bit higher, but at least you don't have to worry that you get topped out with a spike.

A perfect clear sends lots of garbage, so you can stop your opponent from stacking too high. Problem is that there is a 40% chance that your opponent can send back your garbage with a Tetris.

2 TSDs send 9 lines of garbage within 2 bags, so you can stop your opponent from stacking too high. Problem is that there is a 40% chance that your opponent can send back your garbage with a Tetris.

A TSS into TSD has the advantage that the residual will be changed if your opponent downstacks your garbage. Problem is that you only send 7 lines of garbage. A TSS is rather inefficient because of slow soft drop speed.

A C-Spin or DT-Cannon sends 11 lines of garbage. Problem is that you need at least 3 bags to execute them. Meanwhile your opponent may have prepared a 15 combo.

A TSD into combo (6-3 or 5-4 stacking) is what Microblizz usually does. However, he lost against chrisw last year.

Other suggestions? How would you continue your game after the opening (in order to survive the 4 wide spike)?
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Paul676
post Nov 12 2013, 07:11 PM
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side 4 wide, 12 or 13 high. Enough that they can't overstack or stack far higher than you, as a 12 or 13 combo would still kill them, and they cannot use the benefits of the centre 4 wide (i.e. that you can stack to row 20 and above in a centre 4 wide). Also side is usually quicker than centre 4 wide, so you should get to 12 or 13 before they do. Most they stack to in that instance is 15 or 16 - and you should be able to execute a t-spin before they finish their combo to block 4 more lines of garbage. The best bit is that the unblocked garbage are their last 2 or 3 sends, which are likely to be long and clean.


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Wordproblem
post Nov 12 2013, 11:16 PM
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As a 4w user, Double Tetris has always hurt when I start my combo or when I stack high. You can either hit them before they start their combo and Ko them or do it early - mid combo if you are sure you can Ko them with a double tetris.
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MicroBlizz
post Nov 12 2013, 11:17 PM
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Well in my match against Chris last year, it wasn't that the TSD into a combo didn't work so much as I misdropped a lot. In my opinion, the only ways to beat the 4w is to cut it shorter or topple them with APM, making the first 20-30 seconds pivotal to surviving it. I think the APM has to be sent in at the right moment to prevent your opponent from sending the clean garbage back to you. Ideally, your opponent will have to use most of his/her combo to counter your incoming garbage and that shortens the combo in and of itself. As a result, if successful then the 4w-er would be at a slight disadvantage after the 4w because you now have the momentum from the initial APM while your opponent is back on the bottom of the matrix with nothing to use as counters.

In my experience, a maintained B2B or a timed PC is a good strategy because it shortens the combo and puts pressure on your opponent. I prefer this strategy over 4w-ing not only because I'm not good at 4w-ing, but also because of two reasons: assuming we're talking about players who are consistent with their 4w's, and it's likely they are otherwise they wouldn't even attempt one in the first place, one little misdrop is all takes to put you in a bad position. The second reason is if you 4w against their 4w, it'll quickly turn into a battle of downstacking through the swiss cheese garbage. Given the complex finesse and additional kps required to get through all of that, there's more room for error and it can really go either way at that point.


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morningpee
post Nov 12 2013, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE(Integration @ Nov 12 2013, 06:27 PM) *
A C-Spin or DT-Cannon sends 11 lines of garbage. Problem is that you need at least 3 bags to execute them. Meanwhile your opponent may have prepared a 15 combo.

You do not need "at least 3 bags" to execute either one. For C-Spin, minimally, you will need 2 bags + 1 piece to clear both T-spins, and a full 3 bags is worst-case.

I'm tired of people saying you need a T piece to set up DT-Cannon. You don't. And for DT-Cannon, best case, you only need two bags. Example:

Granted, you can only use 2 bags if the second T is at the end of the second bag. Otherwise, any DT-Cannoner worth their salt can clear it by the end of the third bag, but usually sooner, as soon as the third T arrives.

And DT-Cannon is a viable strategy against 4-wide. SirJeivus used it in game point against chrisw. SirJ used 15 pieces for his setup (including the Ts used for clearing), whereas chrisw used 19 pieces to set up his 4-wide. Fumen:


The 11 lines from SirJ's DT-Cannon prevented chrisw from stacking any higher. He lost the game for other reasons, but his 4-wide defense itself was solid.
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Antifate
post Nov 12 2013, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE(morningpee @ Nov 12 2013, 11:20 PM) *

You do not need "at least 3 bags" to execute either one. For C-Spin, minimally, you will need 2 bags + 1 piece to clear both T-spins, and a full 3 bags is worst-case.

I'm tired of people saying you need a T piece to set up DT-Cannon. You don't. And for DT-Cannon, best case, you only need two bags. Example:

Granted, you can only use 2 bags if the second T is at the end of the second bag. Otherwise, any DT-Cannoner worth their salt can clear it by the end of the third bag, but usually sooner, as soon as the third T arrives.

And DT-Cannon is a viable strategy against 4-wide. SirJeivus used it in game point against chrisw. SirJ used 13 pieces for his setup (not including the Ts used for clearing), whereas chrisw used 19 pieces to set up his 4-wide. Fumen:


The 11 lines from SirJ's DT-Cannon prevented chrisw from stacking any higher. He lost the game for other reasons, but his 4-wide defense itself was solid.


Much truth. There are also a lot of other set-ups that get TSDs/TSTs out of the first 3 bags. If you aren't confident with a combo game, early aggression is the easiest way.

As Microblizz said, combo vs. combo games can get messy. A single misdrop or instance of crappy pieces can lose a game. Similarly garbage luck is a pretty huge factor. I suppose combo vs. combo is a fine answer in that you will, on average, come out on even grounds, but quick aggression is a way to reach for an actual advantage.
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caffeine
post Nov 13 2013, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE(morningpee @ Nov 12 2013, 05:20 PM) *

I'm tired of people saying you need a T piece to set up DT-Cannon. You don't. And for DT-Cannon, best case, you only need two bags. Example:

Granted, you can only use 2 bags if the second T is at the end of the second bag. Otherwise, any DT-Cannoner worth their salt can clear it by the end of the third bag, but usually sooner, as soon as the third T arrives.


I don't have any experience with that variant, but I'd imagine you'd have to commit to it before knowing whether you're going to get the special second bag case that enables it (1 in 7 chance). Also, even if you get that special case, you can still get a very early T on the first bag, which prevents you from holding for the rest of the setup. If you can find a way to do this reliably (and easily transfer it to a T-version 6/7ths of the time), then more power to you.

On the other hand, it's fairly easy to improvise a TST from a single-bag TSD opening such as Albatross or Pelican without using a T in the stack (at least some of the time).
QUOTE

And DT-Cannon is a viable strategy against 4-wide. SirJeivus used it in game point against chrisw. SirJ used 15 pieces for his setup (including the Ts used for clearing), whereas chrisw used 19 pieces to set up his 4-wide. Fumen:


(19*4)/6 = 12 lines (rounding down). In the cases where the comboer isn't able to extend his combo into the garbage he received, that's an 11-combo. In TF, that sends 25 lines after finishing the combo. Add in 12 more pieces to finish the combo, and the player has sent 25/31 = 0.806 garbage per piece. The 15-piece DT Cannon, on the other hand, sends 11 lines. 11/15 = 0.733 garbage per piece (and clean garbage at that). (More about this concept here.) On paper, the 4-wide still comes out ahead. Moreover, the comboer now has two Tetris's worth of clean garbage to follow up with / transition into. To me, that's not much of a defense.

The side 4-wide can be done more reliably than the center 4-wide. Although, I don't really see it as a defense, since they're both nearly the same kind of attack. It's also pretty dangerous when your opponent can top you out with a simple 10 piece PC.

This is why I believe center 4-widing is the best opening in TF/TOJ and lacks a true counter. The reason we don't see it more in top level play is, in my opinion, because top players choose not to learn/use it and are able to deal with those who do because they are that much better/faster.
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myndzi
post Nov 13 2013, 02:37 AM
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Not sure why 3-wide isn't mentioned as a viable defense..? For a player like me who doesn't practice combos, a 3-wide is still easy enough to pull off and can block enough of the attack to make it non-lethal. Moreover, it's more reliable; lots of 4-wide openings don't pan out because the player is stacking too fast and misses a tricky ordering, misdrops, or gets the wrong sequence of pieces. Conversely, it's pretty hard to screw up a 3-wide... and if your 4-widing opponent runs into one of those situations now you've got a spike on him too.

3-wide can also be built as a center combo; the I piece is the only piece that can KO you if you're not careful, but IRS and IHS will protect you from that.


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vipjun
post Nov 13 2013, 09:27 AM
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Besides 4widing yourself I think the key to surviving the 4wide is to get access to the later clean garbage lines ASAP and using your I's efficiently to ds your own field while blocking the in coming lines. This means you really have to stay flat in order to start clearing garbage ASAP. Sometimes even at the cost of creating T-spins.

If I had only 1 tsd left and had to choose between
A. sending it now in order to reduce their combo field
B. sending it a little later to block the first few lines of garbage

I would choose B.

I think Sir J's use of various Tspin setups was good to shorten the field of chrisW while also adding pressure. but if I can recall, most of the games where he lost to the 4W early was due to the lack of access to his own garbage. Being able to Tetris your own garbage once is worth at LEAST 8lines in terms defense. While upstacking for an extra TSD is at most 5lines of defense and usually less because of the hang and likely extra pieces needed to finish the setup.

The games where he had great defense he was also accessing his garbage, sometimes chaining his tetris into combo clears.

I think any of the setups mentioned are viable
- PC into tetris tds or PC/PC/PC if you are really pro at it.
- DT/cannon , Cspin, triple,triple, albatross
- Free style

The key is
1. saving 1 large clear to block the initial small combo
2. accessing the later clean garbage quickly by keeping a flat field or just getting lucky with the hole placements.

I think a good 4wider would defeat a good 3wider 2/3 to 3/4 of the time.
So IMO it's a losing strategy unless you have an advantage over your opp (speed, consistency, etc)

During HDO I or II blink successfully defended against the 4W against Secret Salamander in part

- He was much faster and able to get 2x 3W stacks. I do not think this is the norm.
- S.S. usually did not get his earlier messy garbage through which allowed blink access to his own garbage easier.
- chrisW's execution of the 4w vs sir jeivus was arguably better than S.S. at the time of HDO where it was relatively new to the English tetris players.
- a side 3W might be good enough against a mid 4W that isn't too consistent, but your OPP can switch to a side 4W and that usually nullifies any advantage you'd have with side 3W.


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FieryLight
post Nov 13 2013, 10:32 AM
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Personally I set up this thing:

forgot what it was called, sorry.

And then I stack for a side 4 wide.

When the opponent begins to combo I use some T pieces to block the messy garbage and buy mroe time to stack higher.

Then I combo myself.

At the end I think I'm usually the one left with some nice clean garbage to send back over later.
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poopmo
post Nov 13 2013, 07:03 PM
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Just quit before you get frustrated Sticking Out Tongue.png
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Antifate
post Nov 13 2013, 10:39 PM
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Real talk alert.

QUOTE(caffeine @ Nov 13 2013, 12:33 AM) *

I don't have any experience with that variant, but I'd imagine you'd have to commit to it before knowing whether you're going to get the special second bag case that enables it (1 in 7 chance). Also, even if you get that special case, you can still get a very early T on the first bag, which prevents you from holding for the rest of the setup. If you can find a way to do this reliably (and easily transfer it to a T-version 6/7ths of the time), then more power to you.

On the other hand, it's fairly easy to improvise a TST from a single-bag TSD opening such as Albatross or Pelican without using a T in the stack (at least some of the time).
(19*4)/6 = 12 lines (rounding down). In the cases where the comboer isn't able to extend his combo into the garbage he received, that's an 11-combo. In TF, that sends 25 lines after finishing the combo. Add in 12 more pieces to finish the combo, and the player has sent 25/31 = 0.806 garbage per piece. The 15-piece DT Cannon, on the other hand, sends 11 lines. 11/15 = 0.733 garbage per piece (and clean garbage at that). (More about this concept here.) On paper, the 4-wide still comes out ahead. Moreover, the comboer now has two Tetris's worth of clean garbage to follow up with / transition into. To me, that's not much of a defense.

The side 4-wide can be done more reliably than the center 4-wide. Although, I don't really see it as a defense, since they're both nearly the same kind of attack. It's also pretty dangerous when your opponent can top you out with a simple 10 piece PC.

This is why I believe center 4-widing is the best opening in TF/TOJ and lacks a true counter. The reason we don't see it more in top level play is, in my opinion, because top players choose not to learn/use it and are able to deal with those who do because they are that much better/faster.


Thumbs Down.png Disagree/10

Firstly, what evidence is there that side 4w can be done more reliably than center 4w? Center 4w can easily (no soft drops required) be done with every set of starting pieces (TOJ rules/randomizer/previews). Not only that, it can be safely stacked higher and cleared quicker (less horizontal movement in comboing down).

Secondly, I have to say that your theorycrafting is pretty damn bad. Simplifying things to an isolated garbage per piece statistic is a hilariously bad way to compare two opening strategies. It ignores timing, speed, consistency, garbage canceling(!), flexibility, and just too many factors that contribute to multiplayer openings. You really misrepresent both openings as well as how they interact. And despite simplifying the question of DT vs 4w to a simple metric, you can't even use that statistic as you end up comparing the offensive output of 15 pieces to 31 pieces (dafuq?).

QUOTE(FieryLight @ Nov 13 2013, 10:32 AM) *

Personally I set up this thing:

forgot what it was called, sorry.

And then I stack for a side 4 wide.

When the opponent begins to combo I use some T pieces to block the messy garbage and buy mroe time to stack higher.

Then I combo myself.

At the end I think I'm usually the one left with some nice clean garbage to send back over later.


This is called a DT cannon. It's pretty solid if used offensively. If used defensively as part of a combo play, you're sacrificing its main strength (quick TSD-TST). At the same time, you're neutering your combo play by limiting how high you can stack by dedicating lines to the DT and also stacking on the side. You'd probably stomp your opponents harder if you stuck with one or the other. Thumbs Up.png



Finally, let's try to get rid of the stigma surrounding 4w. Less whine, stop calling people "chris4wide," etc. Thumbs Up.png
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Profane
post Nov 13 2013, 11:37 PM
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the best 4 wide defense is to stop playing against people who 4 wide till they stop 4 widing


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Paul676
post Nov 14 2013, 01:27 AM
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The only pro of side 4-wide vs center 4-wide is that side 4-wide can be stacked quicker (same reason center 4-wide can be cleared quicker). That, however, is enough to make it a good strat against center 4-wide so long as you clear early enough.


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caffeine
post Nov 14 2013, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE(Antifate @ Nov 13 2013, 04:39 PM) *

Firstly, what evidence is there that side 4w can be done more reliably than center 4w?

Simply because it is easier to stack on wider surfaces than narrower ones. When you split a surface into two (such as in center 4-widing), you can no longer use the columns adjacent to the sides where they could be connected. You lose placement options as a result. From personal experience, I've found it much easier to complete a side 4-wide without needing to "dump" pieces or create temporary gaps. If your experience is different, then more power to you.

QUOTE(Antifate @ Nov 13 2013, 04:39 PM) *

Secondly, I have to say that your theorycrafting is pretty damn bad. Simplifying things to an isolated garbage per piece statistic is a hilariously bad way to compare two opening strategies. It ignores timing, speed, consistency, garbage canceling(!), flexibility, and just too many factors that contribute to multiplayer openings. You really misrepresent both openings as well as how they interact.


I made a claim, and I presented evidence to support my claim. You have merely pointed out that there are more ways than one to compare openings. You haven't actually shown why the particular way I did was "hilariously bad."

The garbage per piece analysis was enough to serve the purpose of showing why I don't believe the DT-cannon to be that great a defense against 4-widing. Per piece comparison is a more logical way to evaluate than the "speed" of an opening, since speed is not actually a property of the opening in itself. It depends on the player and also on how much he's practiced a particular opening. It's true that consistency is important, but there are players who are able to be consistent with either opening. Garbage-canceling wasn't relevant to the comparison since I was analyzing and replying to morningpee's example. (In which the DTer deliberately sends the garbage before it can be canceled to limit the height of the 4-wide.) That goes hand and hand with timing. As for flexibility and the other unnamed "too many factors," I can't really say I am that persuaded to by their mere existence alone to change my view. I am interested to learn how you think they influence the value of each opening, though.

QUOTE(Antifate @ Nov 13 2013, 04:39 PM) *
And despite simplifying the question of DT vs 4w to a simple metric, you can't even use that statistic as you end up comparing the offensive output of 15 pieces to 31 pieces (dafuq?)


While that's important, it wasn't necessary to address in my post. If you give the DTer another 15 pieces, and let's say he manages to pull off another TSD and TST, then he will still end up under 0.8.
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