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Forums - Hard Drop - Tetris Community _ Tetris _ Phantom Mania X

Posted by: Question_Mark Jun 17 2019, 03:43 AM

Hi all,

It's been a while since last I was here. I've been working on a project for quite some time now; it has of course required a serious amount of coding. Of course, I am talking about modifying the code for NullpoMino. Modifying it to make it harder. Lots harder.

For starters, I turned to the dark side and became a bit of an ARShole. THAT took some serious effort! Then, after some screwing around in Eclipse I was able to take the... "best" parts of Grade Mania 3, Speed Mania 2, and Phantom Mania, and Frankenstein them together into something I'm calling Phantom Mania X (the X is simultaneously for eXpert, eXtreme, and eXcruciating).

Just as Phantom Mania was Invisible Death (i.e. it follows the Death speed curve), Phantom Mania 2 is Invisible Shirase. This mode has the following features:

Phantom Mania 2 level 300 plays at the same speed as Phantom Mania level 500.
At level 500, Phantom Mania 2 introduces rising garbage which copies the bottom line of the current stack. The frequency increases, i.e., the number of pieces placed between each line of rising garbage decreases, with each section from 500-999. In Shirase mode, the garbage lines appear as a grey line copying the bottom row of the current stack; in Phantom Mania 2 the garbage lines are also invisible. The only indication that garbage lines have been received is a one-frame lock-flash across the bottom of the stack - blink, and you'll miss it.

At level 1000, Phantom Mania 2 stops the rising garbage lines (although it does not delete lines which have already been received), and all pieces become grey [] brackets (bone blocks). Not only is this a throwback to the original Tetris, but it is also a significant difficulty increase:
- The absence of any colour makes it much more difficult to discern the Next queue.
- The hollow nature of bone blocks makes it harder to notice holes.
For Phantom Mania 2, there are further difficulty enhancements:
- Up until level 1000, a thin white outline showing the border of the current stack flashes for one frame after the lock flash frame. Beyond level 1000, this outline is removed.
- Up until level 1000, line clears produced a colourful visual effect indicating not only that a line clear was made, but also how many lines were cleared. Beyond level 1000, there is no line clear animation.

The absence of the outline and line clear animations removes the only partial visual feedback on the stack.

Grades awarded in Phantom Mania 2 run from S1 to S13, with one grade being awarded for each section cleared. Upon clearing level 1300 a grade of S13 (green) is awarded, and upon clearing the big-mode monochrome invisible credit roll a grade of S13 (orange) is awarded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phantom Mania X is the expert version of Phantom Mania 2. All of the features of Phantom Mania 2 are included in Phantom Mania X. The following additions are made:

Section COOL!!s - Phantom Mania X awards a COOL!! if levels 0-70, 100-170, etc. of each section are cleared (1) within the time requirements of the COOL!! table (below), and (2) no more than 2 seconds slower than the previous section COOL!! time. The minimal requirements for getting a COOL!! are:
0- 70: 32:00
100- 170: 32:00
200- 270: 29:00
300- 370: 25:00
400- 470: 25:00
500- 570: 22:00
600- 670: 22:00
700- 770: 18:00
800- 870: 18:00
900- 970: 16:00
1000-1070: 16:00
1100-1170: 14:00
1200-1270: 14:00

The COOL!! system is analogous to that of Grade Mania 3. The similarities and differences are as follows:
- The minimal COOL!! times from levels 0-870 are uniformly 20 seconds faster than for Grade Mania 3.
- Whereas Grade Mania 3 did not have a COOL!! for the 900-999 section, Phantom Mania X has COOL!!s for all 13 sections. The minimal COOL!! times continue to speed up until the last section.
- Like Grade Mania 3, Phantom Mania X increments your grade by one. However, unlike Grade Mania 3, Phantom Mania X does not skip 100 levels of the speed curve upon receipt of a COOL!!.
If the player does not earn all COOL!!s, the blocks will turn visible and give the "fading roll" with the corresponding discount in points earned per line cleared.
If all section COOL!!s are met, the GM-roll is unlocked.

Multiple Torikans - In addition to the level 500 and level 1000 Torikans, there are additional Torikans at level 300 (1:30.00) and 800 (3:38.00). If not all four Torikans are cleared, the game will stop at the Torikan failed, and a grade is awarded based on how many sections were completed and how many Section COOL!!s were awarded.

Tetrises - Phantom Mania X requires you to make
- at least 1 Tetris in every section, and
- at least 40 Tetrises throughout the game.

If these requirements are not both satisfied, the game is hard-programmed to forbid the awarding of a GM grade, even if enough grades are earned in the GM-roll.

GM-roll - Unlike Phantom Mania 2, there is a new unlockable credit roll dubbed the GM-roll (analogous to the M-roll in Grade Mania 3). To unlock the GM-roll, the main game must be cleared with all section COOL!!s and all Tetrises requirements met. The GM-roll is absolutely mandatory in order to achieve the highest possible grade.

When the GM-roll begins, the board is cleared and the internal grade is set at M, but the bone blocks remain and (like the BIG mode credit roll in normal Shirase) the game plays at Shirase 300 speeds for 53 seconds. In the GM-roll, a single is worth 0.1 grades, a double 0.2 grades, a triple 0.3 grades, and a Tetris 1.0 grades. There is also a 1.6 grade bonus for clearing the GM-roll.

The grades awarded in Phantom Mania X are S1-S13, m1-m13, M, MK, MV, MO, MM, GM. While the internal grade increments with each grade point awarded, there are internally 12 levels called "MasterM"; thus, it is much harder to surpass the grade MM than to achieve it for the first time. In addition to earning at least 15 grades in the GM-roll, the player must also survive it to earn the grade of Grand Master.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In summary the GM requirements are as follows:

Finish level 300 within 1:30.00.
Finish level 500 within 2:28.00.
Finish level 800 within 3:38.00.
Finish level 1000 within 4:56.00.
Finish level 1300 with...
- 1 Tetris in each section and
- 40 Tetrises throughout the game.


Beat levels 0-70, 100-170, ..., 1200-1270 within time limits that are 20 seconds faster than those for Grade Mania 3, which continue to get faster until 1200.
Beat each 0-70 no more than 2 seconds slower than the previous 0-70.
This section COOL!! requirement unlocks the invisible credit roll (OMGBBQ?! ;D), also known by me as the GM-roll. This unlocks all grades beyond M13. Just as in Grade Mania 3,
- each line cleared earns 0.1 grades, except...
- each Tetris earns 1.0 grades and
- clearing the GM-roll earns 1.6 grades.
In addition to earning a minimum of 15 grades in the invisible roll, you must also survive it to earn the orange-line GM grade.

Meeting all the requirements to get a GM grade in this game is rather like trying to pull a million-pound locomotive by yourself on foot. Not impossible, but you could be forgiven for thinking it is.

And then I would prove you wrong. Wink.png




Toodle-pip,
QM

Posted by: XaeL Jun 17 2019, 04:22 AM

Nice.

Posted by: morningpee Jun 18 2019, 07:09 AM

Awesome, that does look crazy hard. 2 thoughts:

Zooming the camera view out is effective, but IMO, your hand should still be in view.

Now that you are using ARS, are playing very quickly, and perform more Tetrises, it would be cool to see you attempt the TGM3 GM grade.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 19 2019, 02:04 AM

it's kind of telling that you had to disable comments and visible likes/dislikes on your youtube video because no one who actually plays TGM is buying this

Posted by: simonlc Jun 19 2019, 05:49 PM

Nice work on programming the mode.

Have you ever thought of streaming? I think a lot of people would be interested in watching, myself included!

Posted by: professor-l Jun 22 2019, 03:37 PM

That was utterly mesmerizing. Just ridiculous.

I'm aware that there are a lot of people saying this is fake. It's pretty absurd, but it's definitely not implausible for someone to having a working memory of this caliber. The odds that someone with that capacity would be sufficiently interested in Tetris (and in programming) to be able to do this is similarly reasonable.

If you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpwImjTrKr4, it becomes clear that playing invisible Tetris like that, clearing garbage and maintaining a stack actively, is very possible. There're just only a handful of people in the world who can do it effectively. You should ask Greentea to practice this mode - he'd likely be quite good at it, and he'd give you some credibility if he were able to play invisible mode sustainably.

Well done though, this is truly incredible.

Posted by: Shuey Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM

It's nice to see some people actually supporting QM and his achievements! I don't know why so many skeptics and haters always seem to come out of the woodwork every time he does something new, but it's really annoying.

If you look at one of his previous videos, it's very clear that he's got true skills. Look at this one for instance:



Some people thought he was watching a visible playfield that was out of camera shot. Even if that was true (and it's NOT!), what he's accomplishing with one hand at these speeds is more than I can accomplish with two hands and a visible playfield, lol.

Let's also not forget that he figured out a new playing forever technique that nobody even knew or dreamed was possible, AND his new technique was more optimized than the original AND is playable at 20G!

I wish people could look past their own doubts and have enough sense to realize that the dude has true skill and isn't a scam artist Frown.png...

Posted by: Question_Mark Jun 23 2019, 02:34 AM

You know, guys, if you really want to show your support, I could use a few likes on the video I posted in the OP.

Posted by: Cosine Jun 23 2019, 11:01 AM

Huge congrats to QM

QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

Let's also not forget that he figured out a new playing forever technique that nobody even knew or dreamed was possible, AND his new technique was more optimized than the original AND is playable at 20G!


Sure, except I posted some rare cases that makes it hard to continue... still it's pretty nice though.

Posted by: Lucas_Bomfim Jun 23 2019, 10:29 PM

You're absolutely insane.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 24 2019, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

It's nice to see some people actually supporting QM and his achievements! I don't know why so many skeptics and haters always seem to come out of the woodwork every time he does something new, but it's really annoying.

If you look at one of his previous videos, it's very clear that he's got true skills. Look at this one for instance:



Some people thought he was watching a visible playfield that was out of camera shot. Even if that was true (and it's NOT!), what he's accomplishing with one hand at these speeds is more than I can accomplish with two hands and a visible playfield, lol.

Let's also not forget that he figured out a new playing forever technique that nobody even knew or dreamed was possible, AND his new technique was more optimized than the original AND is playable at 20G!

I wish people could look past their own doubts and have enough sense to realize that the dude has true skill and isn't a scam artist Frown.png...


The issue is that the play exhibited here is really far above and beyond what the best TGM players can do. Like, reaaaaly far above. I'm not saying this level of play is impossible, but what would constitute proof for myself and many other players is something more than some one-off YouTube videos. at the very least, I would need to see live stream footage of play that even comes close to what he's doing in these videos. The fact that QM is being so defensive about it is incredibly suspicious in my eyes as well.

It's insanely easy to cheat video game footage. I can only guess that the reason why people are so quick to believe is a general lack of understanding of just how difficult surviving in Ti's 53 second long invisible credit roll is, or perhaps just how difficult Shirase is. Clearing Shirase in 4:40, without hold no less, is an incredible achievement by itself, matched by few. Doing it with an invisible playfield is practically superhuman in my eyes and simply requires better proof than is on offer here.

Posted by: professor-l Jun 25 2019, 01:55 PM

QUOTE(mycophobia @ Jun 24 2019, 04:28 PM) *

The issue is that the play exhibited here is really far above and beyond what the best TGM players can do. Like, reaaaaly far above.


Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpwImjTrKr4. It's only for 53 seconds, but it at least demonstrates semi-comparable credit roll play.

Posted by: sinewave Jun 25 2019, 02:31 PM

QUOTE(professor-l @ Jun 25 2019, 01:55 PM) *
it at least demonstrates semi-comparable credit roll play.


"semi-comparable"? Not even close. Shirase is faster than Master Mode ever gets, including the credits roll. Playing at Shirase 1200 speeds with invisible pieces nonetheless is flat out impossible, when people kind of struggle with regular 1200 play in the first place.

Posted by: professor-l Jun 25 2019, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(sinewave @ Jun 25 2019, 02:31 PM) *

"semi-comparable"? Not even close. Shirase is faster than Master Mode ever gets, including the credits roll. Playing at Shirase 1200 speeds with invisible pieces nonetheless is flat out impossible, when people kind of struggle with regular 1200 play in the first place.


The struggle with Shirase speed comes primarily from the physical input limits of a TGM machine, which are obviously not hindering QM. There are plenty of top-tier Tetris players who can play as fast and faster than 1200 TGM3 speeds on a keyboard.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 25 2019, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(professor-l @ Jun 25 2019, 05:15 PM) *

There are plenty of top-tier Tetris players who can play as fast and faster than 1200 TGM3 speeds on a keyboard.


dude, slamming down pieces at a pace you control in 0G SRS is a world apart from being forced to maneuver in 20G ARS with 8 frames of lock delay.

Posted by: XaeL Jun 26 2019, 06:08 AM

QUOTE(mycophobia @ Jun 25 2019, 05:27 PM) *


dude, slamming down pieces at a pace you control in 0G SRS is a world apart from being forced to maneuver in 20G ARS with 8 frames of lock delay.


I see what you did there.

Posted by: professor-l Jun 26 2019, 12:58 PM

QUOTE(mycophobia @ Jun 25 2019, 05:27 PM) *

dude, slamming down pieces at a pace you control in 0G SRS is a world apart from being forced to maneuver in 20G ARS with 8 frames of lock delay.


Well, clearly QM is more than capable of doing so, so the point is moot regardless.

Besides, with a working memory as powerful as his, speed should be more or less irrelevant in determining his capacity to play like this. Just because you've never seen someone this good doesn't mean nobody can be. Human nature is pushing the limits of what others think is possible, and that's what he's doing.

From a cognitive standpoint, while highly anomalistic, QM's abilities are not out of the question. At this point, your skepticism, while not wholly unwarranted, has crossed the line between healthy suspicion and unproductive dismissiveness.

He's the best in the world, it's that simple.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 26 2019, 02:32 PM

It's really "that simple" that he's the best in the world? On the thinnest of support you're willing to believe this? My skepticism is unwarranted because you want to take easily fakeable video footage of a seemingly superhuman feat at face value, without the assistance of any corroboration whatsoever, such as live stream footage of attempts or in-person verification by a trustworthy source or really any sort of presence in the TGM scene outside of these staggeringly bold claims to mastery? You really want to accept that using memory techniques is the explanation for this?

The only thing that is simple here is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Posted by: professor-l Jun 26 2019, 09:02 PM

QUOTE(mycophobia @ Jun 26 2019, 02:32 PM) *

It's really "that simple" that he's the best in the world? On the thinnest of support you're willing to believe this? My skepticism is unwarranted because you want to take easily fakeable video footage of a seemingly superhuman feat at face value, without the assistance of any corroboration whatsoever, such as live stream footage of attempts or in-person verification by a trustworthy source or really any sort of presence in the TGM scene outside of these staggeringly bold claims to mastery? You really want to accept that using memory techniques is the explanation for this?

The only thing that is simple here is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Agree to disagree, I guess. Sorry for upsetting you.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 26 2019, 09:48 PM

I'm not upset with you, I'm just genuinely confused as to why you're backing this guy up. He's done nothing but act defensively and straight up ignore more than legitimate objections. He didn't even bother to film his hand this time! I just don't get it.

Posted by: professor-l Jun 26 2019, 11:38 PM

QUOTE(mycophobia @ Jun 26 2019, 09:48 PM) *

I'm not upset with you, I'm just genuinely confused as to why you're backing this guy up. He's done nothing but act defensively and straight up ignore more than legitimate objections. He didn't even bother to film his hand this time! I just don't get it.


Fair, you may not be upset with me, but you're clearly upset, and I'd rather just disengage.

Posted by: Lucas_Bomfim Jun 28 2019, 12:18 AM

I believe in him because of what he has done previously. People can play with similar performance on regular and invisible tetris modes given enough practice. QM was the best at invisible already and had years of practice after that.

Posted by: mycophobia Jun 28 2019, 02:04 PM

QUOTE(Lucas_Bomfim @ Jun 28 2019, 12:18 AM) *

QM was the best at invisible already


You base this on...?

Posted by: Rosti_LFC Sep 14 2019, 09:58 PM

QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

It's nice to see some people actually supporting QM and his achievements! I don't know why so many skeptics and haters always seem to come out of the woodwork every time he does something new, but it's really annoying.


Probably because it's really annoying when you've put thousands of hours of work towards honing a skill, and some guy just pops up with something that is literally unbelievable and people take it at face value. Then, when asked to give an explanation on his memory technique he provides an elaborate but debunkable explanation that involves a lot of backpedalling and corrections when things don't quite add up. When asked to give clearer videos we get stuff that's not even on the same level. When asked to give more or better videos we just get excuses and then a very small selection of vids from weird angles, picture quality, and framing.

And when it's suggested that maybe the best way to clear all this controversy up would be to do this in front of someone live, they then blow up and pre-emptively insist that there's nobody they could meet that we would believe (not true), nobody willing to meet to be a referee (not true), and that even if they did we'd find some other way to be sceptical (possibly true but I'd say still worth a go).

And yet despite the sheer incredible nature of the achievements, despite all the sketchy circumstances around it and the unwillingness to really engage on the side of providing evidence and proof, there are people who are not only happy to give the guy the benefit of the (considerably sized) doubt and believe him, but then also advocate for him being legit without any additional evidence? You really wonder why people who think this is fake feel it necessary to come out and repeat that they think it's fake?

I don't play TGM or have skin in this game any more and I still found it irritating enough having come across it that I'm bothering to reply to it.

QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

If you look at one of his previous videos, it's very clear that he's got true skills.

If you look at a lot of his other posts, it's also very clear that he's got the capability to fake something like this. If someone is capable of modifying Nullpo code to write new modes then that opens up a huge amount of opportunity for shenanigans.

QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

Some people thought he was watching a visible playfield that was out of camera shot. Even if that was true (and it's NOT!), what he's accomplishing with one hand at these speeds is more than I can accomplish with two hands and a visible playfield, lol.


And none of that is suspicious to you? This guy is playing Tetris at a speed that's as fast as the fastest in the world. He's supposedly using memory techniques that are miles beyond what the world champions in memory competitions can do. He's completely crushing invisible Tetris on a level that nobody else has managed. And on top of all of that he's doing it by playing with one hand.

"But he's doing so many other impressive things as well!" doesn't help the cause, especially when those things could also be faked. When a guy posts an invisible Death Gm that's faster than the visible world record Death Gm, then I'm going to question if the invisible element is legit, but I'm questioning the legitimacy of the rest of it pretty hard as well.


QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

Let's also not forget that he figured out a new playing forever technique that nobody even knew or dreamed was possible, AND his new technique was more optimized than the original AND is playable at 20G!

The fact that someone manages significant achievements in one area of something doesn't give them a free pass against scrutiny on something else. They're unrelated. If KevinDDR suddenly started claiming he could run 100m in under 9 seconds then I wouldn't just sit back and think "well the guy is one of the best in the world at Tetris so I guess I'll give him the benefit of the doubt". Especially if he was claiming he could do it while solving a rubik's cube blindfolded faster than most top speedcubers can with their eyes open.

Also lets not forget that the whole foray into invisible Tetris for QM basically started as a neat exploit that demonstrated the playing forever strategy. Not some obvious intent to be the best in the world at invisible Tetris.


QUOTE(Shuey @ Jun 23 2019, 02:04 AM) *

I wish people could look past their own doubts and have enough sense to realize that the dude has true skill and isn't a scam artist Frown.png...

Honestly I wish people had a bit more scepticism and awareness as to what it's possible to (easily) fake given a bit of know-how and time. If you believe every video or record that QM posts and just take each one as an extension of that (he's done all this incredible stuff in SRS so of course he can in ARS!), then things seem believable. But if you stop doing that, and pull at the house of cards a little bit, then actually a lot of the stuff that's been posted just seems frankly very hard to believe. Not impossible, but hard to believe, and there are a lot of surrounding circumstances (lack of interest in other modes, live online play, no regular streaming, no willingness to show anyone in person) which all build on that.

I'd also like to make it really clear that in general QM wasn't met with scepticism and actually a lot of strong and established players did take things at face value and were genuinely interested in trying to learn from what QM was doing. It was only after those explanations didn't really make much sense that people started to scrutinise more closely and felt things weren't adding up.

This is a community fundamentally built on an honour system - a lot of the records on our leaderboards aren't officially verified by third parties. And for that to work then a layer of scepticism is healthy, and I would say necessary, in order to prevent abuse. If I suddenly claimed that I had TGM3 Classic GM and a 14 second 40 line record tomorrow, I'd expect a fairly high bar to prove that I wasn't just bullshitting (definitely more than just screenshots and some dodgy videos). Anyone posting best-in-the-world records should expect that, and acting defensive and angry about it (as opposed to working to find a way to verify it) just raises the suspicion if anything.

If what QM is posting is legit, then this is some epic stuff and he's one of the best Tetris players in the world in more ways than one, for sure. And that would be an important thing for the community to know. But the burden of proof has to lie on the player making a reasonable effort to show what they're doing is real, not just that the community takes everything as legitimate until someone can prove it's a hoax.

It's 2019. There are so many ways this guy could produce pretty robust evidence that what he's doing is real, and he's just made excuses or flat out refused to do so at every turn. Those calling bs haven't just called bs - they've also outlined what sort of stuff would change their mind. None of that has been convincingly produced.

It's not about people being "haters". It's not about random YouTube trolls who don't even play the game claiming it's fake. It's about people bothering to scrutinise when people post exceptional things so that our leaderboards don't just devolve into a farce of whoever can claim the best record and post the minimum amount of evidence to get enough people who are happy to just take things at face value (or want to believe that it's real) to say it's real.

Posted by: Shuey Sep 14 2019, 11:12 PM

Dang, that looks like an epic reply! I haven't even read it yet, but knowing that it's written by Rosti, I know it'll be good Grin.png.

I've gotta finish up some last minute stuff for the day, but I'll read it in detail and reply back soon!

OK, I read the first paragraphs, and I totally get the gist of what's being said - I don't have the time at the moment to read the rest, but I totally understand the sentiment and agree.

If I was as good as QM claims to be, I would be completely motivated to do everything in my power to prove it - He simply hasn't done that. And when questioned about it (and rightfully so), he does the opposite of what pretty much all of us would've expected him to do - he basically said it wasn't worth his time. This makes no sense.... He supposedly spent hundreds (maybe even thousands) of hours becoming a God at invisible Tetris, and then when someone asks for more reliable proof, he says he doesn't feel like dedicating a couple more hours to doing something that SHOULD be relatively easy to produce (especially when compared to the actual achievements themselves).

And then what does he do? He vanishes from the face of the Earth once again... it's all just too odd O_o...

Posted by: Shuey Sep 15 2019, 02:53 PM

I posted a more detailed reply finally (posting this additional "fast reply" just in case my edited post doesn't trigger a notification to subscribers of this thread).

Posted by: Rosti_LFC Sep 15 2019, 07:24 PM

Thanks for replying and I'm glad we're on the same page!

(Much shorter reply from me this time! Wink.png )

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