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> Puyo Puyo Tetris for PC
morningpee
post Feb 5 2018, 06:07 PM
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egguu#8406 dropped a bombshell on us in discord chat today.

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Source:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/sega-tease...o-tetris.21263/

He also predicts that this means the death of Tetris Friends.

CODE
[11:53 AM] egguu: sooo.... i guess PPT for PC really is happening :0
[11:54 AM] morningpee: why?
[11:55 AM] egguu: ...why not?
[11:55 AM] morningpee: but how do you know
[11:55 AM] 888: How do you know eggu?
[11:56 AM] egguu: sega is dropping hints all over steam
[11:56 AM] egguu: https://www.resetera.com/threads/sega-teases-something-on-the-bayonetta-steam-announcements-puyo-puyo-tetris.21263/
[11:56 AM] morningpee: nice!
[11:57 AM] The Mattmaster: What does this mean?
[11:57 AM] egguu: it means goodbye tetris friends
[11:57 AM] egguu: :wave:
[11:59 AM] fudu: o hell ya
[12:03 PM] 888: This is great news! @egguu  thanks for sharing
[12:03 PM] 888: :tetraO: youre awesome
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XaeL
post Feb 5 2018, 10:31 PM
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Nice i think. though that means $$$ to play.

What's the das/line clear delay like on PPT?


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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morningpee
post Feb 5 2018, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 5 2018, 10:31 PM) *

What's the das/line clear delay like on PPT?

I made a wiki page with line clear delay and ARR info, though not DAS because I used a 60 fps video as the source and do not actually own the game.

http://harddrop.com/wiki/Puyo_Puyo_Tetris_timings
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XaeL
post Feb 6 2018, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE(morningpee @ Feb 5 2018, 11:13 PM) *

QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 5 2018, 10:31 PM) *

What's the das/line clear delay like on PPT?

I made a wiki page with line clear delay and ARR info, though not DAS because I used a 60 fps video as the source and do not actually own the game.

http://harddrop.com/wiki/Puyo_Puyo_Tetris_timings



Cool. I know that you don't have the game but does anyone who *does* have the game want to chime in with das settings? ARR of 2 frames is.. slow-ish compared to TF - TF is 1/40 = 0.025 seconds, PPT = 2/60 = 0.033. A das to wall (lets say 4 counts) = 0.1 seconds for TF, 0.132 seconds for PPT.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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Okey_Dokey
post Feb 6 2018, 05:49 PM
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The release announcement came already one day later: Puyo Puyo Tetris will launch on Steam for PC, on Tuesday 27th February 2018! Price should be only 20 Dollars / Euros with 10% pre-order discount.



The PC version seems to have no new features, so no chat and no spectator mode (besides Steam's internal / integrated chat and spectating abilities). I still hope they will nerf the combo-table a little for Tetris vs Tetris matches (which requires the approval from The Tetris Company), change how the previews are displayed in 3+ player rooms and add IHS and IRS (Initial Hold / Rotation System)

QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 5 2018, 10:31 PM) *
Nice i think. though that means $$$ to play.

I rather like paying once than having to suffer from ads and lags eternally.

QUOTE(morningpee @ Feb 5 2018, 11:13 PM) *
I made a wiki page with line clear delay and ARR info, though not DAS because I used a 60 fps video as the source and do not actually own the game.

According to this post, DAS (DelayedAutoShift) is 8 frames for Puyo and 12 frames for Tetris, and ARR (AutoRepeatRate) is 2 frames for both games. So, it's pretty much the opposite of how Tetris Online Japan worked (DAS = 5 or 6 frames, ARR = 3 frames): PPT has slow DAS (you have to wait long until a piece starts with the automatic movement) but fast ARR (once it moves, it moves quickly). Actually, the slow DAS is one of my critic points. I get why it's like that (otherwise Tetris too fast for Puyo and DAS too slippery for some players because no tunings) but playing with the regular 2-step finesse just feels so damn slow in this game. Another critic point is that the game ignores all your inputs during the delays (no IHS, IRS). What makes this worse is that there's also some garbage canceling delay (additionally to the rather long line clear delay) and this totally screws my timing in Tetris vs Tetris (it's hard to predict when and for how long this canceling delay appears). On the plus side, I like how Puyo Puyo Tetris handles garbage (garbage hole can change during an attack, no garbage blocking).
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XaeL
post Feb 6 2018, 11:43 PM
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DAS (DelayedAutoShift) is 8 frames for Puyo and 12 frames for Tetris, and ARR (AutoRepeatRate) is 2 frames for both games.

Since we know that ARR = 2 frames, an auto-hotkey script (oh knows. hacking!) could easily adjust DAS, and match the ARR rate.
Nothing a little auto-hotkey can't fix.

If controls are configurable and left/right is processed OnKeyDown() and accepting multiple bindings, i could see an autohotkey script that does this:

CODE

bool DasLeftTimer
updateLoop {
   some form of das detection()
   if (DasLeftTimer) {
       pressLeft();
       wait 1/60;
       release left();
       wait 1/60;
   }
}


If it accepts keydown and keyup on same frame (doubtful):
CODE

bool DasLeftTimer
updateLoop {
   some form of das detection()
   if (DasLeftTimer) {
       pressLeft();
       release left();
       wait 1/60;
   }
}


And finally, if it accepts two keys for left and processes on keydown without checking key-up
CODE

bool alternate= false
someformOfUpdateLoop:
if (DasLeftTimer) {
   if (alternate) {
      pressLeftKeyboard();    
      releaseLeftFakeXbox();
   } else {
      pressLeftFakeXbox();
      releaseLeftKeyboard();
   }
   alternate = !alternate
}
sleep(1 frame)


This gives customizeable das and 60hz arr (assuming they process OnKeyDown and allow multilpe key-downs before key-up)


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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caffeine
post Feb 7 2018, 04:17 AM
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Which is why they really should make DAR and autorepeat customizable: cheat prevention through incorporation.
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Kitaru
post Feb 7 2018, 06:47 AM
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QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 6 2018, 03:43 PM) *
This gives customizeable das and 60hz arr (assuming they process OnKeyDown and allow multilpe key-downs before key-up)
I'm about 99% confident it won't work. The game is very likely running at a fixed time step of 60Hz (rather than 120Hz, dynamic time step, event based, etc.). If it's polling and updating at 60Hz, "tapping" in two consecutive updates is the same as keeping the input held as far as the game is concerned.


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Kitaru
post Feb 7 2018, 06:56 AM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Feb 6 2018, 08:17 PM) *
Which is why they really should make DAR and autorepeat customizable: cheat prevention through incorporation.
It's a good thought, although it seems that TTC may still consider DAS a measure to be used for balancing and pacing (despite the existence of a 6 frame entry delay in several of the last handful of games). It seems that Sega may be following suit in using it as a balancing measure, considering that Tetris and Puyo have differing DAS start-up (however that could also be attributed to following convention for previous Puyo games and being bound by whatever the current iteration of the Guideline reads on the Tetris side... although now that I think of it, Tetris Ultimate and the current tetris.com game act as a bit of a counterpoint on that front).

I don't feel it's inherently wrong to have fixed DAS settings so long as it is sufficiently fast as to be a useful tool, but I agree it'd be much more preferable to have DAS as a player preference for this style of game (although with the caveat that I think entry delay is an acceptable or preferable pacing measure if the game designer needs a variable to tune on that front).


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Okey_Dokey
post Feb 7 2018, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 6 2018, 11:43 PM) *
Since we know that ARR = 2 frames, an auto-hotkey script (oh knows. hacking!) could easily adjust DAS, and match the ARR rate.

Such an AHK script would have to simulate ARR a bit slower than 2 frames per move because the AHK script wouldn't know when the game polls the inputs (something like ARR = 2.5 frames could be possible though). Thus, such cheating could be detected.

Let's assume a script could simulate ARR = 3 frames. In average, it's a little less than 4 steps to the walls and a little less than 3 of them are made through autorepetition. So, DAS = 9 frames ARR = 3 frames should be as fast as DAS = 12 frames ARR = 2 frames, if you don't account DAS preservation (leaving a movement direction key pressed while harddropping). I still think that the best players would be faster with DAS = 12 frames ARR = 2 frames than with DAS = 6 ARR = 3, considering how fast amemiya_taiyou can play in Puyo Puyo Tetris (I am definitely NOT because I barely use DAS preservation).

QUOTE(caffeine @ Feb 7 2018, 04:17 AM) *
Which is why they really should make DAR and autorepeat customizable: cheat prevention through incorporation.

I think customizable DAS would be a nice option in custom rooms (customizability of ARR is not needed imo). I really doubt that this will ever happen though.
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XaeL
post Feb 7 2018, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE(Kitaru @ Feb 7 2018, 06:47 AM) *

QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 6 2018, 03:43 PM) *
This gives customizeable das and 60hz arr (assuming they process OnKeyDown and allow multilpe key-downs before key-up)
I'm about 99% confident it won't work. The game is very likely running at a fixed time step of 60Hz (rather than 120Hz, dynamic time step, event based, etc.). If it's polling and updating at 60Hz, "tapping" in two consecutive updates is the same as keeping the input held as far as the game is concerned.


Ok here are a whole bunch of concerns as to why I think tapping left two frames apart with different controllers could work:
* I agree that the engine is definitely frame based at 60hz. However
* We don't know if a keypress held for <16ms will result in the engine getting an KeyPress and KeyRelease, no input, or a KeyPressOnly. I'm gonna assume KeyPressOnly, since we assume input polling at 60hz.
* We don't know if they will support multiple keys for the same logical input (e.g. multibind a keyboard and controller to player 1)
* We don't even know how they deal with das tapback since PS4, Wii, Switch and Xbox you can't physically press left and right on the same frame. The example I'm thinking of is if you hold right then das then tap left and press harddrop without releasing right all on the same frame. The correct implementation (break right das and shift left once) would definitely involve knowing which key was held first. This is an aside though.

If they have an event style input queue (inputs generated at say 1000hz, but only "processed" every 60hz), then sending left/right 16x in 16ms could just work, giving instant das. That's obviously not likely of course, so i agree with you on the 99% there.

If they support multi-input for one player, 60hz arr is totally possible due to naive programming.
Let's say their "engine" has "KeyDown", "KeyRelease", "KeyHeld" functions. Unity3d is an engine with this.
Also assume that inputs are polled exactly once per frame. I.e. there are no "events". KeyDown will only fire for max one frame and KeyRelease will fire for max one frame. i.e. 30hz tapping is the fastest.
CODE

dasLeft = 12;
void HandleInput() //called once per frame.
{
    if (KeyDown(LEFT))
   {
       moveLeft();
   }
   if (KeyHeld(LEFT))
   {
       dasLeft--;
   }
   if (KeyReleased(LEFT))
   {
      dasleft = 12;
   }


   HandleARR(); //looks at dasLeft counter...
}


Now lets say they wanted to implement multi-binds.

CODE

dasLeft = 12;
void HandleInput() //called once per frame.
{
    if (KeyDown(LEFT))
   {
       moveLeft();
   }
   if (KeyDown(JOYLEFT))
       moveLeft();
   }
  
   ...
   HandleARR(); //uses dasLeft counter...
}


this simple code change has a bug. if you smash left/joyleft alternately, you get 60hz arr. Of course this bug wouldn't ever occur if they only support EXACTLY one key for each logical action.

here's another EQUALLY simple implementation that would also (obviously) fail.
CODE

dasLeft = 12;
bool IsLeftDown() { return KeyDown(LEFT) || KeyDown(JOYLEFT); }
bool IsLeftHeld() { return KeyHeld(LEFT) || KeyHeld(JOYLEFT); }
bool IsLeftReleased() { return KeyReleased(LEFT) || KeyReleased(JOYLEFT); }
void HandleInput() //called once per frame.
{
    if (IsLeftDown())
   {
       moveLeft();
   }
   if (IsLeftHeld())
   {
       dasLeft--;
   }
   if (IsLeftReleased())
   {
      dasleft = 12;
   }


   HandleARR(); //looks at dasLeft counter...
}

Basically what i'm saying is, if they implement multi-bind naively (totally possible) it wouldn't be very hard to fuck it up. The "correct" solution that i can think of is to aggregate inputs somehow - definitely not an easy set of one liners. Though Tetris is a money grab, so they're not likely to add new features, and theres no multi-bind in console, so again, i guess you're right there's 99% chance that the fastest ARR we can get is 30hz.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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eliser4
post Feb 8 2018, 05:26 AM
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Dear All,

I am a sad tetris boy.

I want to play puyo puyo tetris on my pc but it costs a whopping $19.99!
Looking for donations. I am creating a Kickstarter. It should be up soon.

eliser4
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Kitaru
post Feb 8 2018, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 7 2018, 12:50 AM) *
* We don't know if they will support multiple keys for the same logical input (e.g. multibind a keyboard and controller to player 1)
We do know that. (EDIT: Rather, we do know how it would behave if they maintain the same functionality seen in the controller presets.) In the default control scheme on console versions, the analog stick and d-pad bind to the same logical input. This can be observed more easily in control schemes where there are multiple bindings for the same rotation input; the game does not allow flicking two of the same rotation direction to get a quick 180 unless there is an open frame between them.

QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 7 2018, 12:50 AM) *
* We don't even know how they deal with das tapback since PS4, Wii, Switch and Xbox you can't physically press left and right on the same frame. The example I'm thinking of is if you hold right then das then tap left and press harddrop without releasing right all on the same frame. The correct implementation (break right das and shift left once) would definitely involve knowing which key was held first. This is an aside though.
We do know that -- you can hold left/right in both the Default (d-pad + analog) and Table (Square + Circle) control schemes. You can charge DAS in both directions at the same time, if I recall correctly it seemed to be functionally equivalent to it keeping track of the timestamp that each button was first depressed and giving priority to the one pressed most recently. (EDIT: Rather, I can't remember precisely if you can charge DAS in both directions at the same time by jamming both directions close to each other and then seeing the benefit of an instant direction change when the preferred direction is released, but it would likely behave as such if the theory about recording the timestamp for each input is correct.) Pressing a new direction requires DAS charge to be built in that direction, but releasing a direction makes use of whatever DAS charge was available in that direction previously.

QUOTE(XaeL @ Feb 7 2018, 12:50 AM) *
this simple code change has a bug. if you smash left/joyleft alternately, you get 60hz arr. Of course this bug wouldn't ever occur if they only support EXACTLY one key for each logical action.
See above. They map to the same logical input, and as such this alternation between physical inputs is registered as the input being held.


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XaeL
post Feb 9 2018, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE(Kitaru @ Feb 8 2018, 07:46 AM) *

They map to the same logical input, and as such this alternation between physical inputs is registered as the input being held.



Ahh ok thanks. Ok you are 100% correct then. I didn't know all those thingies. So faster ARR is definitely not possible.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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Brent
post Feb 9 2018, 11:58 PM
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For anybody who didn't already pre-order it at 10% off like me (fml), you can get 20% off here:
https://www.fanatical.com/en/game/puyo-puyo-tetris

Should we create a new/revive the old steam harddrop group for when this comes out? I'm not very good though maybe there's some people on here also are not very good and can play some different modes in unranked.

The problem with playing PPT online is it kind of forces you to only play one mode you are best at most of the time unless you want to sabotage your rank. I get around it on ps4 with multiple profiles so I can play puyo puyo and swap for fun online but I don't think steam is so easy to do this on.
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