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> Voting Puyo Puyo Tetris (PC) as worst client of all time
Chopin
post Mar 6 2018, 11:59 AM
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I haven't RAGED VeryAngry.png this hard since Tetris Friends broke. Sega/TTC should be embarrased to have even asked money for it or maybe shouldn't have released it this early seemingly untested. Not only does playing Tetris vs Puyo Puyo feel like playing vs a 4-wide combo every game, most games are unplayable due to the lag. Lag ranges from having slight dropped inputs in a game to playing 0.5 PPS versus some opponents (guessing due to their bad net and bottlenecking). Apparently making a playable Tetris game is completely beyond technology's current capabilities.

Absolutely terrible. I'm so disappoint. Guess I will disappear for another decade until the 2020's when maybe there might finally be a playable official Tetris client. But there probably won't be.

Puyo Puyo Tetris wins my nomination for worst Tetris client ever.

How I feel every time I play vs an average Puyo player:
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- Chopin
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Kevcel
post Mar 6 2018, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 6 2018, 12:59 PM) *

until the 2020's when maybe there might finally be a playable official Tetris client. But there probably won't be.

Indeed, I wouldn't count on it.

QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 6 2018, 12:59 PM) *

Puyo Puyo Tetris wins my nomination for worst Tetris client ever.

Bruh... You clearly haven't tried Tetris Ultimate yet. I dare you. I double dare you...


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caffeine
post Mar 6 2018, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE
How I feel every time I play vs an average Puyo player:
IPB Image


This gif is great. Sometimes it feels like I'm sending T-Spins with every bag's T, and I still get clobbered. From what I understand, T-Spin Triples are no good in TvP. I watched a Japanese player win by doing ST-stacking with TSS/TSD/Tetrising with an emphasis on TSS. I think it's also important to keep constant pressure without leaving too large a gap between attacks. Also speed helps.

As for the input troubles, this is frustrating at first but not insurmountable. Once you get the hang of the rhythm, you barely notice it (for non lag games). For laggy games, it's still pretty frustrating.

Those are the cons. The pros: I really like the rules for a TvT (with the exception of over rewarding combos). The garbage is not CoA, so playing well in the beginning actually means something and will help you win. Consequences for mistakes don't instantly evaporate. You actually get punished for blunders. It feels much more strategic and less random. Winning and losing feels more like the sum of all decisions made within the match, and not due to one quick attack at the very end.

Line clear delay means B2B is very strong and singles/doubles/triples are weak. Downstacking with Tetrises and T-Spins is particularly strong. The slower gameplay coupled with no garbage blocking means that screen watching and garbage cancel timing is important (and actually doable for mere mortals such as myself).

So I agree that there are problems with the controls, but overall I'm having a lot of fun.
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Chopin
post Mar 6 2018, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 03:24 PM) *

So I agree that there are problems with the controls, but overall I'm having a lot of fun.


The TvT is pretty good (apart from the bad things) however I wish that the line sending wouldn't cause delay/lag on the reciever's side. Not sure if it's just me, but if it's intentional, no reason to give an advantage to the "better/faster"player. I think this only really is important if the opposing player is super fast.

And I'm still trying to figure out TvP, but my consensus currently is you cannot win if both Tetris and Puyo player are equal skill level. You can only win if you as the Tetris player is higher skilled. But yeah maybe there's a rinse-and-repeat technique there to learn.

But even so, I really dislike that aspect of a game. It's so non-interactive and puts the pressure on the Tetris player to not mess up (very similar to 4-wide vs non-4-wide). The coolest thing about multiplayer Tetris is the interaction and counterplay that makes up the bulk of the game.

QUOTE(Kevcel @ Mar 6 2018, 12:44 PM) *

Bruh... You clearly haven't tried Tetris Ultimate yet. I dare you. I double dare you...


Also, I think Tetris Ultimate was actually better XD at least relative to that time. It's sad even that we have to compare a game from 2014 to make 2018 PPT look good Laugh.png
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XaeL
post Mar 6 2018, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 6 2018, 03:51 PM) *



Also, I think Tetris Ultimate was actually better XD at least relative to that time. It's sad even that we have to compare a game from 2014 to make 2018 PPT look good Laugh.png

PPT is also 2014.

also note that the only reason PPT has bad controls are:
50% No IHS/IRS
50% they time your piece spawn based on connection (i.e. variable ARE), instead of having your game input separate to connection. This is probably a (very bad) balancing decision to ensure that a player doesn't "get ahead" too many pieces vs a laggy player, however the way it is implemented is really bad. I've had games where the puyo puyo player has higher Pieces/second than me, making me literally unable to play faster than 0.5 pps.

I've made a little script that shows every-time i press rotate/hold/hard drop before EntryDelay (7 frames) has occured. It flashes red. I was getting a lot of red flashes.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/235065991 (bottom right flashes everytime i press a key too fast. Yes i would rather complain and make an app to complain than actually time my button presses better)


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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S2PID
post Mar 6 2018, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 6 2018, 06:59 AM) *

How I feel every time I play vs an average Puyo player:
IPB Image

- Chopin

You can use center 4 wide to wall out Puyo players who can't chain past 4 and don't know how to dig.

QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 10:24 AM) *

The garbage is not CoA, so playing well in the beginning actually means something and will help you win.

There's a lot I don't understand about Tetris yet. What do you mean by playing well at the beginning?

QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 10:24 AM) *

The slower gameplay coupled with no garbage blocking means that screen watching and garbage cancel timing is important (and actually doable for mere mortals such as myself).

Besides the obvious case where you'll die from a spike at the top of the screen, do you have any other explicit examples of screen watching and timing?
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caffeine
post Mar 6 2018, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 6 2018, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 10:24 AM) *

The garbage is not CoA, so playing well in the beginning actually means something and will help you win.

There's a lot I don't understand about Tetris yet. What do you mean by playing well at the beginning?

Most games before recently were change on attack (CoA) garbage. This meant that the column on which the garbage hole would be on would only change with each individual attack. Therefore, a Tetris and T-Spin double would send four lines of clean garbage. It's very easy to clear all of that with one I-piece and send four lines back. Players responded to this by developing strategies such as trying to send big attacks when your opponent sent slightly less, which results in the opponent receiving the small difference. That results in messier garbage. Another strategy was to wait until the opponent's top-most several rows were messy, and then try to send "volume," since you knew you had some time before they could get down to the clean garbage.

While strategies such as these developed around CoA, overall the gameplay still felt very shallow. When you create an attack that is challenging to build, you expect it to actually hurt your opponent. However, since the garbage you're sending is so clean, frequently it helps your opponent instead. There was little "stickiness" to the attack. If your opponent made some mistakes and you played perfectly, they could recover so easily that before you knew it, you would both be at square one again.

Puyo Puyo Tetris sends garbage differently. I don't know the exact method, but rows sent within individual attacks are not always clean. Attacks hurt more and are less subject to the "see-saw" effect. This design issue is not isolated to Tetris. For more info, check out this article by game designer Sirlin,
Slippery Slope and Perpetual Comeback

QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 6 2018, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 10:24 AM) *

The slower gameplay coupled with no garbage blocking means that screen watching and garbage cancel timing is important (and actually doable for mere mortals such as myself).

Besides the obvious case where you'll die from a spike at the top of the screen, do you have any other explicit examples of screen watching and timing?

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but how garbage cancelling timing in Tetris works is as such:
  • If both players send lines with their most recent piece, then they cancel each other out, and the remainder is sent.
  • If your opponent is near the top and you are not, then it is probably better to avoid canceling garbage so that they are more likely to top out.
  • If you are at the top and your opponent is not, then it is probably better to try to cancel garbage so that you do not top out.
It's more nuanced than that since you also want to look at their overall playfield. They may be at the top but have a lot of clean garbage that they're about to capitalize on (and vice versa).
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Beastin_Shen
post Mar 7 2018, 04:21 AM
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Definitely has some big issues, but far from worse client Ive played.

Lag can be very frustrating, plenty of dropped inputs to be had. Really the only reason this game bothers me so far. Just have to slow down and relax, really make sure the input sends. The game is less forgiving to a misdrop with all of the delay so every input drop can set you back quite a bit. Not nearly as bad as TF lag, dont get me started.

I know a lot of people don't care too much here, but the game has a great look and style to it, even with its gameplay. Every mode is pretty fun even though they can be wonky. Personally i despise big bang but ppt is still adding more options then other clients have in the past. EA tetris and Tetris Splash come to mind, pretty barren on the multiplayer front.

Tetris vs puyo players was odd at first (I was getting demolished), but i like that it creates a different playstyle. Really rewards constant offense/sends to create garbage delay for the puyo player and different plays such as tspin single starts to get the ball rolling. Pressure is on to not let the other player set up a big play.

Swap mode is baller, mix it up you tetris nerds. Get out of your comfort zone. Great dynamic when the Puyo player is bad at tetris lol. Some of the japanese players rock both styles and completely wreck me.

The speed of play is slow, and its nice for a lot of players im sure. I definitely have been out of practice and can't keep up with speed freaks in other games, so its a nice change and allows for the more strategic, consistent, and clean player to come up victorious.

Sure it can be better, but I'm having fun so far, try to see the positives that ppt brings for now!


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Chopin
post Mar 7 2018, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 6 2018, 10:31 PM) *


QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 10:24 AM) *

The garbage is not CoA, so playing well in the beginning actually means something and will help you win.

There's a lot I don't understand about Tetris yet. What do you mean by playing well at the beginning?


I think he means mostly timing in general? And compared to previous versions, the line clear delay means that you can't just do *nothing* in the beginning. On other variants, sometimes I felt like doing anything at all was actually detrimental since the line clear delay is so low that you can more easily use your opponent's garbage against you. Encourages being proactive

Some timing in TvT from yesterday's stream if anyone is interested:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/236088064
https://clips.twitch.tv/KathishAggressiveGoldfishOSfrog

QUOTE(Beastin_Shen @ Mar 7 2018, 04:21 AM) *

Sure it can be better, but I'm having fun so far, try to see the positives that ppt brings for now!


Not sure. I feel like the lack of criticism makes the developers complacent. In this day and age, can you imagine any more complex games having playability issues like these? When you create a product, even though it's an "older game" remade, you are allowed no excuses as a developer. "Oh we're a smaller developer, our game doesn't have to be perfect" is the wrong mindset imo. And that's what they're thinking if the playerbase doesn't push the issue.
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iljain
post Mar 7 2018, 06:24 AM
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is it just problems with the port company, not just sega?

glad i get to refund it with 31 min of play lol

i just can't get used to the keyboard after playing NS version with joycon.
even i play quite well with keyboard on other clients. those line delays or other stuffs...puyo softdrop quickly with down arrow is my problem...

GAME CONSOLES RULE

might buy it again if MANY prolems/bugs get fixed.
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S2PID
post Mar 7 2018, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 06:16 PM) *

Puyo Puyo Tetris sends garbage differently. I don't know the exact method, but rows sent within individual attacks are not always clean. Attacks hurt more and are less subject to the "see-saw" effect. This design issue is not isolated to Tetris. For more info, check out this article by game designer Sirlin,
Slippery Slope and Perpetual Comeback

Don't you think it still equally sucks how you can't predict or control the cleanliness of the garbage at all though? Sometimes you'll feed your opponent clean garbage while everything you receive is clean.


QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 06:16 PM) *

It's more nuanced than that since you also want to look at their overall playfield. They may be at the top but have a lot of clean garbage that they're about to capitalize on (and vice versa).

By vice versa, you mean that you should probably attack when they've got messy garbage, right? But, sometimes, even if it's super messy, the other person gets a nice downstack combo anyways. Do you have a method for calculating your advantage and predicting those scenarios? Any examples where you know the player was actually reading the other field, looking for messy garbage holes that are still comboable?


QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 7 2018, 12:55 AM) *

I think he means mostly timing in general? And compared to previous versions, the line clear delay means that you can't just do *nothing* in the beginning. On other variants, sometimes I felt like doing anything at all was actually detrimental since the line clear delay is so low that you can more easily use your opponent's garbage against you. Encourages being proactive

Do you have a way to directly relate the longer line clear delay to promoting "proactive" gameplay, or is that just your feeling as a Tetris player? I dunno, it seems like you can still have your garbage used against you pretty often in this game lol. Even if the garbage ends up messy, sometimes you can still get an immediate advantage that I don't understand how it would be feasible to predict.
https://twitter.com/pepepeman1374/status/831163561099481088
https://twitter.com/S2LSOFTENER/status/825896077383581696


QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 7 2018, 12:55 AM) *

Some timing in TvT from yesterday's stream if anyone is interested:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/236088064

In this one the RNG gave you some great garbage hole placement lol. It went right under the overhang for a free T-Spin. I listened to the video and you mention that P2's weakness was that DT Cannon is "imbalanced" because it causes you to "sidestack" really hard, but in the video, it looks like P2's stack was still even and low. They didn't have time to sidestack in the first place since you got to spike them with a free attack they didn't have equal access to since their garbage RNG was worse.


QUOTE(Chopin @ Mar 7 2018, 12:55 AM) *

This is just another case of spiking someone at the top of the screen... do you have any other midgame examples where players are lower on the field?
I think the reason why I have a hard time understanding timing in Tetris is that it's difficult to understand the difference between:

1. "I timed this attack specifically because it's going to give me an advantage based on the shape of the other person's field"
and
2. "I was going to attack anyways and coincidentally it worked out really badly for the other player"

I have a lot of questions about that last clip. What were the stats for player 2? Are they simply just a slower player than you? If that's the case, you would've out-APMed them anyway...

Also, look at how your field was already in that last clip. You had a B2B TSD -> Tetris. Regardless of whether you were reading your opponent, don't you think most players would just send that B2B, irrespective of timing? It seems like the most efficient thing to do with the board anyways.
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Beastin_Shen
post Mar 7 2018, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE
Not sure. I feel like the lack of criticism makes the developers complacent. In this day and age, can you imagine any more complex games having playability issues like these? When you create a product, even though it's an "older game" remade, you are allowed no excuses as a developer. "Oh we're a smaller developer, our game doesn't have to be perfect" is the wrong mindset imo. And that's what they're thinking if the playerbase doesn't push the issue.


Uh dont get the wrong idea, the lag drives me mad. Even have an america online graphic ready for my stream when it gets bad. There should definitely be criticism! Please give them hell, I'll join ya. In my opinion there really hasn't ever been a spot on tetris client (edit: on PC) from a top developer. Even TOJ, which had great gameplay and mechanics but the grind that it brought for even proper tuning and control was absurd pre TOP. Also remember it was kind of wonky to boot. If you own the game and aren't going to refund it, there are some cool things it brings to the table. Not saying you need to enjoy it, but plenty do, especially casual players im sure.

Oh and the matchmaking could be better no doubt, i keep getting noobs lol. At least i can practice my puyo puyo


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caffeine
post Mar 7 2018, 06:44 PM
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These are great questions, S2PID.

QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 7 2018, 07:36 AM) *

Don't you think it still equally sucks how you can't predict or control the cleanliness of the garbage at all though? Sometimes you'll feed your opponent clean garbage while everything you receive is clean.

No doubt some will feel that way, and the reason you mentioned is understandable. Coming from 20+ years of playing every kind of garbage system out there, I have found that at least for me, the simple system of having randomly chosen holes is the best and most fun way to play. A big part of why is for the reason I've already mentioned: your attacks have a "memory." They don't evaporate in seconds, and it doesn't reduce the game to an extreme form of "perpetual comeback" where only the last attack really matters. I believe for this reason, non-CoA garbage creates a stronger feedback for the player between how they performed and whether they did well in the game or not. In Csíkszentmihályi's work, this kind of stronger feedback is tied to the psychological state of "flow." I believe designing Tetris to better engage the player in a flow state is very important to how much the player will enjoy the game.

The other part of why I feel this way about randomly chosen holes is because it creates more variation in the garbage. When you get clean garbage, it's fairly straightforward. Randomness creates interesting and challenging downstack scenarios. Downstacking is an advanced part of the game that provides a great amount of depth. I've been working on it for over a decade, and I still find myself fascinated by it and am learning new ways to improve in it.

You mentioned that sometimes you can still send/receive clean garbage. That's true. My personal favorite kind of game is where each individual row of garbage's hole is randomly chosen regardless of the others. This there's still a 1/10 chance of getting two holes lined up (and a 1/100 and 1/1000 chance for three and four lined up), but I like having that variation. Some games even go as far as to make each hole different than the one above, but I feel that that goes too far and actually reduces variation. There's also a design problem that comes up if you make garbage too messy. The messier the garbage, the more pieces it requires to downstack on average. For example, four lined up rows requires one I-piece. Very messy garbage takes 3 or 4 pieces per row in a good scenario, but usually much more. For that reason, if the garbage is too messy, then it is actually more efficient overall to ignore it completely and only send attacks. If it weren't for B2B and T-Spins, all messy garbage would be fine. However, since these modern attacks send so much garbage, it can be more piece-effective to only send them than to downstack super messy garbage. This is especially true with long line clear delay. Since the most piece-effective way to downstack, generally speaking, is usually with singles and doubles, line clear delay makes downstacking even slower. So in order to accommodate modern, high-sending attacks, it may be necessary to have garbage that is not too messy.

QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 7 2018, 07:36 AM) *

QUOTE(caffeine @ Mar 6 2018, 06:16 PM) *

It's more nuanced than that since you also want to look at their overall playfield. They may be at the top but have a lot of clean garbage that they're about to capitalize on (and vice versa).

By vice versa, you mean that you should probably attack when they've got messy garbage, right? But, sometimes, even if it's super messy, the other person gets a nice downstack combo anyways. Do you have a method for calculating your advantage and predicting those scenarios? Any examples where you know the player was actually reading the other field, looking for messy garbage holes that are still comboable?

Maybe a better player can chime in, since this isn't my strongest area. I can tell you that I'll look at my opponent's field and can think "they're at the top, but it will only take a few pieces to get to that Tetrising column at which point they're in good shape." I can also look at their field and think, "that surface looks very awkward, and that garbage will take tons of pieces before they can get to safety." I guess judging if the garbage can be comboed is important. Keep in mind that comboing downstack is effective, but is still objectively slow on a TPM basis due to the line clear delay. If they're at the top and I can send 5 lines, it may not save them.

QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 7 2018, 07:36 AM) *

This is just another case of spiking someone at the top of the screen... do you have any other midgame examples where players are lower on the field?
I think the reason why I have a hard time understanding timing in Tetris is that it's difficult to understand the difference between:

1. "I timed this attack specifically because it's going to give me an advantage based on the shape of the other person's field"
and
2. "I was going to attack anyways and coincidentally it worked out really badly for the other player"


Think about it this way. Suppose Player A has half a field of garbage and Player B is at the bottom. Now let's say both players send 5 rows of garbage with an attack every seventh piece. For simplicity's sake, let's say they don't downstack at all. If both players send their attack at the same time and they cancel every single time, then Player A is in no danger of topping out. If both players send their attack at slightly different times and the attacks do not cancel out, then Player A will lose after the 3rd attack. In both cases, the players send exactly the same amount. Whether the attack cancels or not can change the outcome of the game.

As to where the shape of the opponent's field comes in, that's a good question and has to do what what I mentioned before. Having an awkward surface and messy garbage underneath means it will take several pieces to resolve. It will also require more line clears (and more line clear delay, which means even more time). Having a stable surface with clean garbage underneath will require only a few pieces. That garbage will be cleared more quickly than in the first case. You could say, in a sense, that the time difference between these two cases will eventually be converted into a physical height difference between the two playfields after a given amount of time. Since height difference is ultimately what matters when making a decision on whether to accept or cancel garbage, that is why the opponent's surface and garbage matter.
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Chopin
post Mar 7 2018, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE(S2PID @ Mar 7 2018, 01:36 PM) *

Do you have a way to directly relate the longer line clear delay to promoting "proactive" gameplay, or is that just your feeling as a Tetris player? I dunno, it seems like you can still have your garbage used against you pretty often in this game lol. Even if the garbage ends up messy, sometimes you can still get an immediate advantage that I don't understand how it would be feasible to predict.

In this one the RNG gave you some great garbage hole placement lol. It went right under the overhang for a free T-Spin. I listened to the video and you mention that P2's weakness was that DT Cannon is "imbalanced" because it causes you to "sidestack" really hard, but in the video, it looks like P2's stack was still even and low. They didn't have time to sidestack in the first place since you got to spike them with a free attack they didn't have equal access to since their garbage RNG was worse.

This is just another case of spiking someone at the top of the screen... do you have any other midgame examples where players are lower on the field?
I think the reason why I have a hard time understanding timing in Tetris is that it's difficult to understand the difference between:

1. "I timed this attack specifically because it's going to give me an advantage based on the shape of the other person's field"
and
2. "I was going to attack anyways and coincidentally it worked out really badly for the other player"

I have a lot of questions about that last clip. What were the stats for player 2? Are they simply just a slower player than you? If that's the case, you would've out-APMed them anyway...

Also, look at how your field was already in that last clip. You had a B2B TSD -> Tetris. Regardless of whether you were reading your opponent, don't you think most players would just send that B2B, irrespective of timing? It seems like the most efficient thing to do with the board anyways.


It's all about taking, cancelling, or sending. Either +, =, -. You can almost always make this decision (as always, assume a scenario where both players are of equal speed). There is RNG in garbage which can be used against you via spins, Tetrises, and combos, but for the most part you can predict it since you can see their garbage and their upcoming pieces. The only thing that I can't always estimate is how big their downstack combo will be.

Aside from that, if I predict that they're in a bad spot - I will try to + absorb and then be aggressive. Now on the flip side, if I'm in a bad spot (messy garbage or they are going to send me a lot of lines) I have to actively make setups to cancel while downstacking. Doing this well will make your opponents feel like you are "unkillable" usually causing less experienced players to panic

Doesn't matter whether it's timing to kill someone from a spike or to capitalise on a position or to be defensive. The art of timing is probably the most powerful tool in Tetris and (still remains to be) the least talked about aspect of it

All of these intricacies seems lost though in TvP, or at least I haven't figured it out yet.
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poopmo
post Mar 7 2018, 10:01 PM
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I don't mind the gameplay mechanics. They have some merit to them and set it apart from other tetris games: slower pace with more focus on efficient and gimmicky stacking...

The inability to manipulate garbage takes a bit of strategy away, but you can't expect to play every tetris game like it's TF. I think it's a nice variation.

The netcode is god awful though and the one thing I'd like them to fix.
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