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> The 6-3 Split: does it work and is it worth it?
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Ravendarksky
post Jan 13 2012, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Jan 13 2012, 07:47 PM) *

Huh? In this case, it's the second piece that you'd need to let go of the key when rotating, not the first.



So you can't use this method to put a piece in the second last column while holding right to allow the next piece to go straight to the wall too?

Because if this isn't the case then I don't understand the advantage over tapping back.

Plus if you TAP back you gain the advantage on the other side of the stack:





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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 13 2012, 02:00 PM) *

So you can't use this method to put a piece in the second last column while holding right to allow the next piece to go straight to the wall too?

Because if this isn't the case then I don't understand the advantage over tapping back.

I'm not really talking about what happens with the first piece. All the matters is that it goes to the wall and preserves the DAS so that the next piece instantly appears at the wall. After that happens, with method #2, you need rotate and move off the wall, but with #1 you just need to rotate.

QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 13 2012, 02:00 PM) *

Plus if you TAP back you gain the advantage on the other side of the stack:



The "instantly appear at the wall" trick only works once the DAS charge has been preserved from the last piece. Since there's no DAS with that move, there's no preservation and it won't result in having the next piece appear instantly at the wall.
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XaeL
post Jan 13 2012, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 13 2012, 04:41 PM) *

I would argue that tapping back, while slower. Can be more precise

This is never the correct argument for putting something in the wiki. You want to argue that it is FASTER than 2 step finesse in some way.

I however do have some arguments.

Here is a diagram with 5 frame DAS charge and IRS. Using 2step vs das-tapback.

What i about to demonstrate will blow your feeble minds.



DAS tapback.



Now some additional points:

DAS tapback is more lenient and flexible -> HOLD RIGHT, tap LEFT. If u want to keep charge for next piece, keep holding right. If you dont, release right. If you want to charge LEFT, hold LEFT.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE(XaeL @ Jan 13 2012, 03:01 PM) *

DAS tapback is more lenient and flexible -> HOLD RIGHT, tap LEFT. If u want to keep charge for next piece, keep holding right. If you dont, release right. If you want to charge LEFT, hold LEFT.

What game is this supposed to work for? In NP, it allows you to tap back while holding down RIGHT, but it resets the DAS charge. Do I need to tweak a setting or something?
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XaeL
post Jan 14 2012, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Jan 13 2012, 10:15 PM) *

What game is this supposed to work for? In NP, it allows you to tap back while holding down RIGHT, but it resets the DAS charge. Do I need to tweak a setting or something?

My bad it does reset das charge.


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QUOTE(Paradox @ Dec 16 2010 @ 05:52 PM)
Like many setups here, it is useful if your opponent doesn't move and you get 4 Ts in a row.
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Paul676
post Jan 14 2012, 05:48 PM
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does hold reset das charge if you have right held down? That way you can make it faster by using hold :O


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caffeine
post Jan 14 2012, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE(Paul676 @ Jan 14 2012, 11:48 AM) *

does hold reset das charge if you have right held down?

Nope.
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Paul676
post Jan 14 2012, 05:58 PM
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Does something like this check out? I must be close...


Maybe 1 more frame for the I...anyway here is a clear case where hold is better for speed Grin.png

Yes I'm bad at fumen...get over it


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caffeine
post Jan 14 2012, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(Paul676 @ Jan 14 2012, 11:58 AM) *

Does something like this check out? I must be close...


Maybe 1 more frame for the I...anyway here is a clear case where hold is better for speed Grin.png

Yes I'm bad at fumen...get over it

Yep, in that particular case, using hold saves frames. I'd argue that the DAS frames saved in the rare occasions where we do this are not worth the frames wasted overall in "hold-oriented play." To me, the advantages of not using hold are obvious, and it just seems like you're trying to justify the style you've already grown accustomed to. =b
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Paul676
post Jan 14 2012, 09:25 PM
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to me, you're just trying to defend the style you have taken so long to learn, so that you don't have to feel all that effort is wasted =b


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caffeine
post Jan 14 2012, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE(Paul676 @ Jan 14 2012, 03:25 PM) *

to me, you're just trying to defend the style you have taken so long to learn, so that you don't have to feel all that effort is wasted =b

Tell ya what. Show me a 40L game where you effectively use this technique to save more frames than you waste by using hold, and I'll happily give it an honest effort to try to learn and use it myself. ;]
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Paul676
post Jan 14 2012, 09:46 PM
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I believe the 2 holds at the first 20 seconds of this (and certainly the first hold of the I) save me keypresses. Then I hold the O needlessly and thereby screw up later on.

But notwithstanding that, surely it's more about the definite possibility of this working (as shown in the last fumen) that should be persuading you to have ago, not whether Paul676 who is crap at finesse can do it once in a blue moon?


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caffeine
post Jan 14 2012, 10:04 PM
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Do you have a .rep file?
QUOTE(Paul676 @ Jan 14 2012, 03:46 PM) *

But notwithstanding that, surely it's more about the definite possibility of this working (as shown in the last fumen) that should be persuading you to have ago, not whether Paul676 who is crap at finesse can do it once in a blue moon?

Yes. Only, as I was talking about before, I think using hold probably wastes more frames than it saves. Suppose I play a game and use 300 key inputs and finish in 30 seconds. That means, on average, every key stroke costs me 0.10 seconds. I may've counted wrong, but in your video you use hold roughly 10 times. Suppose I play another game with hold, skip DAS on two pieces by using hold, and use hold a total of 10 times. I'll save ((5 DAS)*(1/60 frames))*2 = 0.1666 seconds by doing the trick. I'll waste (0.10 seconds per key)*(10 holds) = 1 second for the 10 hold inputs. That nets me a total of 0.1666 - 1 = -0.8333 saved seconds. In other words, in theory it wasn't worth it.
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Paul676
post Jan 14 2012, 10:53 PM
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In the video I use hold 6 times...I messed up at the end because I realised I was onto a record time - but what I mean by the technique isn't relying on hold (as I currently do), but it is recognising whether it would be beneficial to use hold and then using it if it is beneficial.


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Sisu
post Apr 21 2018, 12:25 AM
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yes


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