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> The 6-3 Split: does it work and is it worth it?
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caffeine
post Dec 20 2010, 02:51 AM
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QUOTE(solo2001 @ Dec 19 2010, 08:28 PM) *

I will learn this method on keyblox before I die.

You know none of these methods have any advantage than the other as far as KPT in Keyblox, right? I mean, you were joking right?
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solo2001
post Dec 20 2010, 03:00 AM
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LOL! my bad. I kinda zoned out reading this thread icon13.gif


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[15:40] DAS44: trolliest thread ever was solo's
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LapSiLap
post Dec 21 2010, 11:55 PM
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Uhm 30.98 without this 6-3 build... dunno if this works lol but it kills my brain :/
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coolmaninsano
post Dec 22 2010, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(solo2001 @ Dec 19 2010, 06:28 PM) *

I will learn this method on keyblox before I die.


LOL
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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 04:17 AM
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Sorry to necro, but I was reading this article, and it had something interesting to say that I found relevant to this discussion:
QUOTE
The researchers discovered, the more data-dense the average syllable was, the fewer of those syllables had to be spoken per second — and thus the slower the speech. English, with a high information density of .91, was spoken at an average rate of 6.19 syllables per second. Mandarin, which topped the density list at .94, was the spoken slowpoke at 5.18 syllables per second. Spanish, with a low-density .63, ripped along at a syllable-per-second velocity of 7.82. The true speed demon of the group, however, was Japanese, which edged past Spanish at 7.84, thanks to its low density of .49. Despite those differences, at the end of, say, a minute of speech, all of the languages would have conveyed more or less identical amounts of information.
"A tradeoff is operating between a syllable-based average information density and the rate of transmission of syllables," the researchers wrote. "A dense language will make use of fewer speech chunks than a sparser language for a given amount of semantic information." In other words, your ears aren't deceiving you: Spaniards really do sprint and Chinese really do stroll, but they will tell you the same story in the same span of time.

I believe the same thing happens with Tetris: there's a tradeoff between keys per tetromino and keys per second (in that it is analogous to the tradeoff between syllable-based average information density and the rate of transmission of syllables). So, while you're saving KPT by learning full 2-step finesse, you'll probably compensate by slowing down in KPS and play at the same TPM (at least until you learn to actually play faster). However, that's not to say there aren't advantages in learning 2-step.
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Paradox
post Jan 13 2012, 04:23 AM
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Well sometimes when you are stacking there are 2 piece or 3 piece patterns that you see and can pretty much stack as fast as you can, having good finesse speeds those patterns up. I figured that out when i played keyblox and sometimes i would place 2-3 pieces super super fast and then continue with my regular pace afterwards.

I'm a pretty strong believer that lower KPT is very beneficial.



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myndzi
post Jan 13 2012, 09:28 AM
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Seems to me that what he's saying is more along the lines of "your mental speed is more of a limiting factor than your physical speed" - which I can get on board with. Of course it's beneficial to have optimal finesse, but his point is that on the average it may very well not matter if you stack three pieces faster than someone else can stack the same three pieces - since you are still going to be processing the same information at the same rate (assuming equal skill).

Another demonstrative example of this is how there are many things that we can agree are good ideas in general, like rotating both directions, using finesse, balancing your key bindings, etc. And yet, some of the fastest players break one or more of these "rules of thumb". I really do think that mental speed is the primary limiting factor; I can't speak for faster players, but I have certainly never been limited by my ability to input key commands (i.e. fingers aren't moving as fast as I need them to) - and even if this is the case, physical speed is the easiest to improve through practice. Witness some of the freaking insane tap rates of speed runners; while I was watching the SDA marathon recently, I think somebody commented that one of the players could mash 16 times per second. That's crazy, and it's also far faster than anybody can "think" Tetris currently.


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Paul676
post Jan 13 2012, 01:32 PM
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myndzi's right that it's about physical speed vs mental speed. For speaking, since people are adept at speaking since they've done it often from an early age, it would be mental speed which would be the limiting factor.

For tetris players, since most of us have played for less than 5 years even, and certainly games which have allowed us to go at sub-30 speeds have been around for less than 5 years, it is generally our mental speed slowing us down. But for awkward piece placements where with bad finesse you'd have to tap 3 times and rotate, or something of that order, it might be better to use some finesse...but something like das to wall and rotate comparated to das to wall+rotate at same time, then tap back has 1 more kpt but no more time. This is, I'd argue, a reason why people who seemingly break the rules do better; 2 taps (das then tapback) and 2 rotates at the same time=4kpt, but only 'uses up' 2 key-times. I'm tempted to re-write the rules of 2 step finesse based on this, but would far rather that someone else did. It seems more correct than normal finesse in terms of time spent...and quicker in terms of time learning it because it's more in line with what we naturally do anyway.


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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE(Paul676 @ Jan 13 2012, 07:32 AM) *
but something like das to wall and rotate comparated to das to wall+rotate at same time, then tap back has 1 more kpt but no more time. This is, I'd argue, a reason why people who seemingly break the rules do better; 2 taps (das then tapback) and 2 rotates at the same time=4kpt, but only 'uses up' 2 key-times. I'm tempted to re-write the rules of 2 step finesse based on this, but would far rather that someone else did. It seems more correct than normal finesse in terms of time spent...and quicker in terms of time learning it because it's more in line with what we naturally do anyway.

Let's get something clear. You're referring to this move:

And you're saying we should change it in the wiki to this move:


While I'll agree that it's the move more people sort of "grow into" over time, I think that's only because the first one is less obvious. I think there are something good reasons why we should teach method #1 on the wiki, and not #2. First off, it's less work, more precise, and better suited for the wiki. Secondly, in these maneuvers, which we use on the left and right wall with all pieces but O, method #1 is definitely preferable to #2 when you encounter cases where piece A is ARed to the wall, then piece B is ARed to the wall immediately afterwards (where left or right his held down the whole time). In games where this results in piece B instantly appearing at the wall after we drop piece A, it causes extra time for method #2 since they're used to rotating "towards" the wall and then moving back. In method #1, there is no moving back, only the rotation (away from the wall). It's better to illustrate it:




Edit: I'm looking over this again, and one thing you might say is that technically you can rotate and move back at the same time with method #2. While this is true, I still don't think it's a good reason enough to change the wiki. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's always like that in practice. Besides, I see the wiki's page as a outline for optimal finesse. You could make a separate page for a more streamlined learning system, but to me those sort of moves are the same ones that people learn by themselves in the first place.
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Ravendarksky
post Jan 13 2012, 04:41 PM
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caffeine while I am almost in agreement with you I DO have some questions...What about if you are DASing another piece afterwards..When I try and do what you are suggesting, sometimes I end up doing the following:



I would argue that tapping back, while slower. Can be more precise in these sort of situations. Am I just doing it wrong?


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Paradox
post Jan 13 2012, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE
I would argue that tapping back, while slower. Can be more precise in these sort of situations. Am I just doing it wrong?


I wouldn't say more precise at all. It seems like you just aren't used to it if you make that particular mistake. If i did something like that then I would continue practicing the movement until i got it right.


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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 13 2012, 10:41 AM) *

I would argue that tapping back, while slower. Can be more precise in these sort of situations. Am I just doing it wrong?

I used to have that problem sometimes at first, too. You're holding down the "move right" button through the rotation. You need to let go of that button more quickly. It's just a matter of getting used to the timing. This never happens to me anymore.
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Paul676
post Jan 13 2012, 05:29 PM
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*lalala rotate+tap-->tap* causes me no difficulty and is 2 moves Grin.png

p.s. "I'm looking over this again, and one thing you might say is that technically you can rotate and move back at the same time with method #2" This.

I'm not talking about changing the wiki...just adding a new section to it (whenever that may be, likely never)


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Ravendarksky
post Jan 13 2012, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE(caffeine @ Jan 13 2012, 03:28 PM) *

method #1 is definitely preferable to #2 when you encounter cases where piece A is ARed to the wall, then piece B is ARed to the wall immediately afterwards (where left or right his held down the whole time).

I just don't see how this is EVER possible seeing as you are telling me I'm letting go of the key too late..... Surely if you hold right the whole time both pieces will always end up at the wall


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caffeine
post Jan 13 2012, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Jan 13 2012, 01:43 PM) *

I just don't see how this is EVER possible seeing as you are telling me I'm letting go of the key too late..... Surely if you hold right the whole time both pieces will always end up at the wall

Huh? In this case, it's the second piece that you'd need to let go of the key when rotating, not the first.
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