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> Multiplayer Tetris: The Definitive Rulebook
Ravendarksky
post Dec 20 2010, 02:58 PM
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Hey caffeine, what was the deal with the b2b PC Tetris thing you were trying out? I'm interested smile.gif


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meow
post Dec 20 2010, 03:00 PM
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i've never seen a zero line mini on TOJ. there are some other requirements for it to be a mini.

http://tetrisconcept.net/forum/showthread....381&page=19

Zaphod and Kitaru discussed it here. i'm not sure what they concluded.
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Kitaru
post Dec 20 2010, 03:25 PM
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From my write-up:
QUOTE
To restate our conclusion, a t-spin is mini if there is an open corner on the point-end, it clears one line or less, or reached its final (x,y) position by way of the t-spin triple wall kick. If you count the the three conditions for a t-spin to be checked in the first place, there are six rules to evaluate a twist. It could be worse, but these rules are already severe overkill in trying to nullify EZ T-Spins. All they needed to do to detect that was add an Immobile check.

It is possible that TOJ doesn't care to distinguish between a Normal and Mini Zero. Other than that, I believe the rest of the rules should hold.

EDIT: Oh god no why oh why TOJ complicates things argh ARGH ARGH ARGH NOOOOOOOO. D:


I sincerely wish I were joking.

EDIT2: It just keeps happening...


Why did no one tell me? Why didn't you tell me about the stairs minis?


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caffeine
post Dec 20 2010, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE(Ravendarksky @ Dec 20 2010, 08:58 AM) *

Hey caffeine, what was the deal with the b2b PC Tetris thing you were trying out? I'm interested smile.gif


I don't yet know whether or not the B2B bonus "stacks" with a perfect clear Tetris (impossible with T-Spin due to overhang).

Here's one way to test it:
1. Have opponent play super slowly: no soft/hard dropping and hold when piece reaches the floor.
2. Start off with a normal tetris to begin the B2B chain.
3. Go directly into another (B2B) Tetris, but make it a perfect clear.

Subtract opponent's garbage rows from the 4 for the initial Tetris. If there's 10 left, it doesn't "stack". I tried for about 10 minutes and got close a few times. Just needed a little luck with the order
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meow
post Dec 21 2010, 12:17 AM
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TOJ minis conclusion as discussed on irc:

1. 1 line clears
2. T was kicked
3. cannot naturally rotate

has anyone found any minis that do not fit those rules or fulfilled those conditions without the spin being a mini?
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caffeine
post Dec 21 2010, 12:27 AM
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QUOTE(meow @ Dec 20 2010, 06:17 PM) *

TOJ minis conclusion as discussed on irc:

1. 1 line clears
2. T was kicked
3. cannot naturally rotate

has anyone found any minis that do not fit those rules or fulfilled those conditions without the spin being a mini?

Does number three mean it's in a spot where it can't rotate without utilizing a kick?
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meow
post Dec 21 2010, 01:53 AM
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yep so in this reposted fumen, all of the spins are minis except frame 11 where you can reach that position from a non-kick rotation

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post Dec 21 2010, 03:16 AM
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That is EXTREMELY strange.

QUOTE(meow @ Dec 20 2010, 09:05 AM) *

just for the record, TOJ counts both of those as tspin mini. did you by any chance test this on TF, chopin? nothing is ever consistent there!



And yes, Meow. I tested the TSS, TSM on TF, I am mind blown!
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caffeine
post Dec 21 2010, 02:12 PM
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Here's my theory behind both TOJ and TF's weird detection:

They don't want this to count as a normal T-Spin:


But at the same time they do want this to count as a normal T-Spin:


And in TF, they also want T-Spin Triple kick T-Spins to count as normal, too.
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Wojtek
post Dec 21 2010, 03:35 PM
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oh yeah, i was about to post same thing. deal about minis is they don't want count caffeine's first fumen as t-spin, but somehow they want to keep 3-corner detection without any logical reason. most simple and logical solution would be to use immobile, but looks like they prefer to keep patching 3-corner with rules so wierd that even tetris pros here can have little problem to figure them out. And they extended 3-corner rule for all-spins (don't ask) in Amagami so you get some really wierd shit.


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caffeine
post Dec 21 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE(Wojtek @ Dec 21 2010, 09:35 AM) *

most simple and logical solution would be to use immobile

Do you mean to use immobile to detect a normal T-Spin? I might have the wrong idea about what constitutes "immobile," but wouldn't that allow these type of T-Spins:

I have no problem with it, but it seems TTC wants these to be Minis.

Does immobile mean that the piece cannot move before rotating it into a T-Spin? Because that would exclude TSTs. The wiki is unclear.

EDIT:

So 1-corner T-spins are legit under immobile? =]

Also, adding the "must clear a line" rule would seem to erase TTC's T-Spin Zero model, which they apparently want to encourage at least in single player.
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Wojtek
post Dec 21 2010, 05:06 PM
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yeah, immobile for normal t-spins, and i see no need for minis at all. and i don't know why ttc want your first fumen to be mini, what they don't like about this spin?

QUOTE
Does immobile mean that the piece cannot move before rotating it into a T-Spin? Because that would exclude TSTs. The wiki is unclear.

no.

QUOTE
So 1-corner T-spins are legit under immobile?

yes.

what's good about immobile:
immobile is simple consisted rule, easy to understand and far more intuitive (especialy in case of all-spin).

what's good about 3-corner?


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caffeine
post Dec 21 2010, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(Wojtek @ Dec 21 2010, 11:06 AM) *

what's good about immobile:
immobile is simple consisted rule, easy to understand and far more intuitive (especialy in case of all-spin).

what's good about 3-corner?

Hey, I can't argue with that! The only advantage 3-corner has over immobile that I can tell is that it calls for tighter "T-Slots," since the corners in a 3-corner are nearer to the T's middle than the bounding minos in some possible immobile T-Spins. And one might argue that the whole point of rewarding a T-Spin is that it's nifty when you fit a piece into a tight spot.
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post Dec 21 2010, 07:14 PM
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I guess it seems for TOJ that if it can be rotated as a T-Spin Single it will be counted as a Single. Otherwise it is a Mini.
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myndzi
post Dec 21 2010, 08:11 PM
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On KoS and Nullpomino (7.5), Immobile detection, mini, and ez works like this:

If the piece rotated, is immobile, and clears a line, it's a spin.
If it kicked and doesn't clear every line it is a part of, it's a mini.
If it kicked and is not immobile, it's an EZ.

In Nullpo, EZ spins can be disabled; when enabled, they enable B2B but send no garbage on their own. EZ doesn't exist on KoS.

Mini spins discourage the kind of thing caffeine was pointing out, where it doesn't take much to make a piece immobile (though, to be honest, it's pretty impractical to try and block a piece in with the bare minimum, and there are much more ridiculous allowances with 3-point than immobile in my opinion.) This means that for maximum effect, "full" spins or natural rotations are required, and these are a rather smaller set of possible spins than minis have.

QUOTE(Kitaru @ Dec 20 2010, 01:11 PM) *

Look again.





If the kick upgraded the first, it should have upgraded the second, was my point. As well, maybe you should look again?


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